Special Agent Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 Just because visionary ideas have the word scientific attached doesn't mean it is right. Science changes and sometimes is wrong. I think you will find that the latter comment in the article could be more of the problem, incorrect application of bandages. Don't you worry Curious, there are plenty of numb nuts in our part of the world. I see another knee jerk reaction (backed with some scientific phrasing) to the idea of an individual or group. Look at the top trainers of the past who successfully used bandages as preventative aids. Davy Jones springs to mind as having raced a lot in bandages with good success. There are obviously many others too. To learn how to bandage properly is a valuable skill. Sorry Curious I don't agree with your horse health and safety visionary comments. I'll vote for bandaging over bute any day. Boots come with problems, though easier and quicker to put on which might be the true reason for recommendation, or the vet owns the company that makes them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 Interesting topic on its own, bandaging. Many American horses - incl the greats - work and race in bandages, run-down bandages specifically to protect the horse's bumpers from the abrasive dirt. Freda White used to cringe at the sight of poorly applied bandages, look at that, she'd say, break the effing horse down putting the things on like that. And that was when we used crepe bandages, sewn on raceday. Not Vetrap. A lot now couldn't put one on if it wasn't self-adhesive. And, of course, Vetrap doesn't have any stretch either. I'm sure Curious and S.A will have heard the term ' bandage bow' and no doubt seen plenty as well. Can be as damaging as a work-induced tendon rupture. Should never happen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 I don't think there is any suggestion that bandages be banned for racing. I don't think there is any in the Netherlands. Only trotting. This initiative applies only to equestrian events. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 We've all seen the knee jerk reactions to everything from our racing office buffs. We used to be leaders; not now. Some bandaging tips from a Davy Jones or Freda White would be gold! Such horsemanship long gone. There is much more to training than knowing the withholding periods of the aids of today. We can only reflect on times when the horse truly came first. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 9 hours ago, Special Agent said: Such horsemanship long gone. There is much more to training than knowing the withholding periods of the aids of today. We can only reflect on times when the horse truly came first. It's a competitive sport - winning has always been first. Over time science and techniques have changed. You either keep up or go home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 11 hours ago, Freda said: Interesting topic on its own, bandaging. Many American horses - incl the greats - work and race in bandages, run-down bandages specifically to protect the horse's bumpers from the abrasive dirt. Freda White used to cringe at the sight of poorly applied bandages, look at that, she'd say, break the effing horse down putting the things on like that. And that was when we used crepe bandages, sewn on raceday. Not Vetrap. A lot now couldn't put one on if it wasn't self-adhesive. And, of course, Vetrap doesn't have any stretch either. I'm sure Curious and S.A will have heard the term ' bandage bow' and no doubt seen plenty as well. Can be as damaging as a work-induced tendon rupture. Should never happen. We always used to bandage and boot our horses in fast work or racing buy that was harness. I bet Imperatriz galloped in bandages today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: We always used to bandage and boot our horses in fast work or racing buy that was harness. I bet Imperatriz galloped in bandages today. Actually I bet every gallop she does is I bandages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted February 13 Share Posted February 13 I think there is nothing wrong with bandaging for work. Sometimes they get a fright walking in and strike themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 15 Author Share Posted February 15 James 'gobsmacked' by Prowess swab www.racing.com Champion New Zealand trainer Roger James says he has been left 'gobsmacked' after star galloper Prowess returned a positive swab during the 2023 Spring Carnival. The talented galloper returned the positive in a pre-race urine sample taken before the Group 1 Champions Stakes at Flemington in November last year. RASL reported the sample contained Phenylbutazone, Oxyphenbutazone and Gamma-hydroxyphenylbutazone (a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory and its metabolites), which is a prohibited substance on race day. The Australian Racing Forensic Laboratory then reported the same findings in the reserve sample. Speaking to Racing.com a week after the positive sample was announced publicly by Racing Victoria, James said that stable had not used Bute for a number of years. He said the stable provided both its New Zealand and Australian vet accounts to stewards to show Bute was not used by them. James, who trains in partnership with Robert Wellwood, said the stable is yet to be charged by stewards, who are continuing their investigation. "We were all absolutely gobsmacked. It's a drug that I've banned from our stable seven years ago because of its length of withholding time and its contaminable ability," James said. "I straight away said, 'You (stewards) can come over to my stables right now, we haven't got it (Bute)'. "We opened up our vet accounts for however long they wanted to go back. "We have wrecked ourselves trying to work out how it got into her system. But it does you no good at the end of the day. "It's all foreign territory for me. But at the end of the day, we have got to cop it on the chin." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 15 Author Share Posted February 15 Environmental contamination? Will be interesting to see what the detected levels were. No charges laid as yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 Roger says one of the reasons he banned bute from his stable was the contamination factor. Who are we to question his integrity? Interesting that there are regular users in NZ according to owners on here though who state bute is on their invoices as a matter of course as opposed to one off injury use. Sounds a bit like a movie plot but, another reason may be tampering. One would imagine however security would be stringent leading up to a big meeting. Possibly should not be overruled. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 1 hour ago, Special Agent said: Roger says one of the reasons he banned bute from his stable was the contamination factor. Who are we to question his integrity? Interesting that there are regular users in NZ according to owners on here though who state bute is on their invoices as a matter of course as opposed to one off injury use. Sounds a bit like a movie plot but, another reason may be tampering. One would imagine however security would be stringent leading up to a big meeting. Possibly should not be overruled. Why would you question Roger James integrity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 18 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Why would you question Roger James integrity? Isn't that the question that Special Agent asked? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 51 minutes ago, curious said: Isn't that the question that Special Agent asked? Well would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 Would I what? 11 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Well would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 It is the question I asked. And no I wouldn't. As I've been saying, I don't understand this supposed widespread accepted use of bute on an every day basis for horses racing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 39 minutes ago, Special Agent said: It is the question I asked. And no I wouldn't. As I've been saying, I don't understand this supposed widespread accepted use of bute on an every day basis for horses racing. But Roger James has said he hasn't used it for 7 years! He probably uses something else but for good reasons. If you aren't using something then give up because you can't compete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: But Roger James has said he hasn't used it for 7 years! He probably uses something else but for good reasons. If you aren't using something then give up because you can't compete. We are talking about bute, not "something else". Bute is bute. If you have a positive to bute you have to be using it. Or, it is present in an environment that you have put the horse in. If you can't compete without racing horses on painkillers then it's time for me to give up and creates a very shaky future for the industry. Edited February 16 by curious 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 If something is a prohibited substance but you use it, you are cheating surely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 19 minutes ago, Special Agent said: If something is a prohibited substance but you use it, you are cheating surely. Bute isn't prohibited except at levels that are detectable on raceday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 16 Author Share Posted February 16 52 minutes ago, curious said: We are talking about bute, not "something else". Bute is bute. If you have a positive to bute you have to be using it. Or, it is present in an environment that you have put the horse in. If you can't compete without racing horses on painkillers then it's time for me to give up and creates a very shaky future for the industry. I suggest you give up then @curious as you are in denial. If you don't accept that what you do each day as a trainer to be successful causes at least some pain then take up Tiddly Winks. Hell most Jockeys go through pain every week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 49 minutes ago, curious said: We are talking about bute, not "something else". Bute is bute. If you have a positive to bute you have to be using it. Or, it is present in an environment that you have put the horse in. If you can't compete without racing horses on painkillers then it's time for me to give up and creates a very shaky future for the industry. Absolutely !! after many years in Vet surgery , where Bute was routinely administered Post surgery as the anti-inflammatory for many types of surgery. And many years working with racehorses , where Bute was routinely 'Not administered' (because of the high chance of swabbing positive) even if the horse had a nagging ailment . you must Use some other treatments for ""In Training Racing Stock ' as always has been done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 46 minutes ago, Gammalite said: Use some other treatments for ""In Training Racing Stock ' as always has been done. Ice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted February 16 Share Posted February 16 18 minutes ago, curious said: Ice? I just saw them doing that with Imperatriz today actually. a routine treatment on a front leg in some great big boot that she always has. (Too bloody hot here in Queensland. The ice would melt before ya got it near the horse so would be just a cold bath 😄😂.) we swim heaps of them here . great for their relaxing , cooling , sore legs etc. and with the nice weather we can swim all year round too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 I saw that too Gammalite. At the end of the day they don't do anything different to most stables. Imperatriz is just a cut above. Most small stables use ice, magnets, swimming, walking, picking etc, too and probably are more pedantic about it and equally show such attention to detail. Chief said "Bute isn't prohibited except at levels that are detectable on raceday". That could be said for all manner of compounds and trace elements that are not proven to be performance enhancing like Vitamin B and Cobalt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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