curious Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 30 minutes ago, Freda said: Isn't Meloxicam the go-to now? 3 day detection time cf 7 for bute? No more effective. Overall, PBZ was more effective than MXM at reducing pain in the HBS model, while MXM was more effective at reducing pain in the SYN model at the oral doses used. Banse H, Cribb AE. Comparative efficacy of oral meloxicam and phenylbutazone in 2 experimental pain models in the horse. Can Vet J. 2017 Feb;58(2):157-167. PMID: 28216685; PMCID: PMC5234315. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 13 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Masking soreness? Or treating it? Only evidenced treatment value is probably pain management, not healing, and it may be counter effective to that. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 14 minutes ago, curious said: Only evidenced treatment value is probably pain management, not healing, and it may be counter effective to that. So treatments to reduce inflamation are a waste of time? An inflammatory response which is closely linked to pain is an early indicator of injury. Long term inflammation can be deleterious to recovery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: So treatments to reduce inflamation are a waste of time? Questionable at best. Probably negative for bone injuries, neutral for soft tissue ones. Make every one feel better though including the horse. Edited February 9 by curious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Bute goes out to 14 days for cumulative administration, meloxicam 4.2. My thoughts are, that if you need such medication to race, you shouldn't be doing it. Different if for pain relief while recovering. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 As per the NZEVA doc posted above, bute actually went to 9.8 days recommended withdrawal time here, estimated 7 day detection time. Meloxicam by comparison 3 days detection, 4.2 possible withdrawal time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Rafael Nadal was permitted to play in the 2022 French Open even though injecting with painkillers because the painkillers he used are on an allowable list and are believed to have no long lasting effects. Like bute, of course there are long lasting effects. Any long lasting effects are irrelevant to a trainer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 5 hours ago, Special Agent said: Rafael Nadal was permitted to play in the 2022 French Open even though injecting with painkillers because the painkillers he used are on an allowable list and are believed to have no long lasting effects. Like bute, of course there are long lasting effects. Any long lasting effects are irrelevant to a trainer. Oi. Not all trainers. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 Not that long ago the majority of USA horses raced on bute -said to be worth a length or two in performance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, nod said: Not that long ago the majority of USA horses raced on bute -said to be worth a length or two in performance Probably because they hurt.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 13 minutes ago, Freda said: Probably because they hurt.... All elite athletes hurt. You train them to cope with that. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 59 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: All elite athletes hurt. You train them to cope with that. Well you've got me intrigued, how do you train horses to cope with pain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, Freda said: Probably because they hurt.... The champion trainer told me it was performance Of course a lot of our bleederd go there so I suppose you could say they are treated 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: All elite athletes hurt. You train them to cope with that. Ffs, you talk some shit sometimes. Humans can make their own informed decisions. Animals - those under our direct control - can't. Pain is an indication that there is something wrong and that the affected part should be rested. Drug away the pain response and catastrophic injuries can and do happen. 5 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 minute ago, nod said: The champion trainer told me it was performance Of course a lot of our bleederd go there so I suppose you could say they are treated Lasix - for bleeders - is widely used in the states, legally. That is supposed to be performance enhancing. Not bute although reduction of pain would certainly help performance - until the creature broke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 14 minutes ago, nod said: The champion trainer told me it was performance Of course a lot of our bleederd go there so I suppose you could say they are treated Funny that they've phased it out because of catastrophic injury rates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: All elite athletes hurt. You train them to cope with that. Usually by treatment, rest and healing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 1 hour ago, Freda said: Lasix - for bleeders - is widely used in the states, legally. That is supposed to be performance enhancing. Not bute although reduction of pain would certainly help performance - until the creature broke. Thanks for the correction [old timers disease] Sometimes I remember things from history like my last winner or that Dean Martins real name was Crocceti 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 5 hours ago, Freda said: Ffs, you talk some shit sometimes. Humans can make their own informed decisions. Animals - those under our direct control - can't. Pain is an indication that there is something wrong and that the affected part should be rested. Drug away the pain response and catastrophic injuries can and do happen. Really @Freda we are talking about Horse Racing not the Pony Club. The very act of training a race horse has to cause stress to elicit the physical and mental responses necessary to compete at a high level of performance. That stress involves pain. That's a fact not shit. A trainer has to manage injury prevention and those stresses that cause pain or injury. But if you think that a horse racing at peak fitness doesn't experience any pain even momentarily then you are in dreamland. Post race techniques are all about managing that stress, the inflammation and the associated pain. It might be an ice bath, it might be a walk in the surf at the beach, it might be a dose of bicarbonate to manage the lactic acid build up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 11 Author Share Posted February 11 5 hours ago, Freda said: Drug away the pain response and catastrophic injuries can and do happen. So you let them experience pain? Or is the issue racing a horse when there is an underlying condition that hasn't been treated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Really @Freda we are talking about Horse Racing not the Pony Club. The very act of training a race horse has to cause stress to elicit the physical and mental responses necessary to compete at a high level of performance. That stress involves pain. That's a fact not shit. A trainer has to manage injury prevention and those stresses that cause pain or injury. But if you think that a horse racing at peak fitness doesn't experience any pain even momentarily then you are in dreamland. Post race techniques are all about managing that stress, the inflammation and the associated pain. It might be an ice bath, it might be a walk in the surf at the beach, it might be a dose of bicarbonate to manage the lactic acid build up. It might be a lot of things. But you are not 'training the horse to manage pain'. You are trying to manage/reduce it on their behalf. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: So you let them experience pain? Not if I can help it. Or is the issue racing a horse when there is an underlying condition that hasn't been treated? Very likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Really @Freda we are talking about Horse Racing not the Pony Club. That stress involves pain. That's a fact not shit. You've been watching too many 1980's Jane Fonda "no pain, no gain" work out videos. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 I can't agree that giving bute is training a horse to manage pain. I've taken voltaren for broken bones. They are still sore once the drug has worn off. Unless you have Mr Ed in your stable you'd be hard pressed to know exactly the individual level of pain. Some win races with fractures but, without bute. Some won't break into a trot with a minor abrasion. As far as injury prevention is concerned, bloody hell many of us have nursed injuries for which we wish there had been some simple resolve. A lot of what happens in racing is heart breaking already. Imagine something horrific resulting from racing on bute. How could you live with yourself? Back to prevention, wait for some numb nut in our part of the world thinking this is a good idea. The Dutch equestrian world will be banning the use of bandages for work and competition. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted February 11 Share Posted February 11 21 minutes ago, Special Agent said: Back to prevention, wait for some numb nut in our part of the world thinking this is a good idea. The Dutch equestrian world will be banning the use of bandages for work and competition. Agree with the rest of your post but numb nuts? Or horse health and safety visionaries? https://equusmagazine.com/news/dutch-national-federation-bans-bandages-in-competition/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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