curious Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 Probably doesn't make any difference anyway and it's definitely painful and cruel. https://theconversation.com/10-reasons-to-stop-whipping-racehorses-including-new-research-revealing-the-likely-pain-it-causes-149271 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 It would make a difference to @Gammalite he wise under the whip a lap and a half from home! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 49 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: It would make a difference to @Gammalite he wise under the whip a lap and a half from home! A lot of harness horses need the persuader, Ozzies use it more than Kiwis do, and it was temporarily banned in Oz, but that rule was overturned. There are a lot of other things that should be banned before the whip, such as COVID VACCINES that we now know maimed and are still killing people!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: It would make a difference to @Gammalite he wise under the whip a lap and a half from home! still under the whip 41 years later . at BOAY for past while instead of Alexandra Park nowadays. 😂 getting a flogging lol. Nah , you can make a horse ,sheep,cow, duck ,dog , neighbour,the missus, anyone at all really move a bit quicker if you use the swish whip correctly. You guys forget it's a prompt mainly, and used as a 'cue to move faster' . Watch some buggy and wagon driving on the Net and see some good action. you are actually 'keeping the horses attention' as the priority, no-ones hurting the poor Buggers . they love strutting their stuff. 'Curious' is should be re-labelled 'Confused' if he thinks a whip drive doesn't make them go faster than without. what does he think the drivers are carrying them for then ? To wave to the crowd in a victory salute at the winning post ? 🤣 (Lucky Dr Chin didn't try that lol 😅) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 8 hours ago, Gammalite said: You guys forget it's a prompt mainly, and used as a 'cue to move faster' . Watch some buggy and wagon driving on the Net and see some good action. you are actually 'keeping the horses attention' as the priority, no-ones hurting the poor Buggers . they love strutting their stuff. The good ones don't need a whip. Often it has become a signal to them that it's the run home. But even then the good ones know that. If a horse is putting in all it can then the whip is only punishing it for good behaviour. That's a negative. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: The good ones don't need a whip. Often it has become a signal to them that it's the run home. But even then the good ones know that. If a horse is putting in all it can then the whip is only punishing it for good behaviour. That's a negative. Yeah but you don't like blinkers, blinds deafeners, burrs, any of the stuff that has been tried and proven by some of the best horse people on the planet (Aus and NZ thoroughbred and Standardbred) over many decades. I see deafeners and hoods used quite extensively on Addington videos these days. I would of driven with deafeners one in ten ( when pulled a sure fire 'signal' to the horse to put-in run home or last quarter) Possibly used one in 3 or so runners now? Whips are held in a rein hand . Not a hope in the world of 'hurting with pain ' a 500kg animal with a big bum with a little swish whip these days. Brodie on the money. just a 'Cue' to the horse to put in Chief. and believe me . The horses need a 'Cue'. or they'd just pull up . They love to run , but would only do it on their terms if given the choice . Drivers need 'All the help they can get' to try and keep all these blasted 'punters' happy and win the race lol. Likely 'pain scenario' as described by Curious is just rubbish. It would be zero. Their legs would hurt more from thundering along on the hard track than anything on their poor big bum lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 24 minutes ago, Gammalite said: Yeah but you don't like blinkers, blinds deafeners, burrs, any of the stuff that has been tried and proven by some of the best horse people on the planet (Aus and NZ thoroughbred and Standardbred) over many decades. The best horses I had anything to do with didn't need any head gear. If a horse wants to race it doesn't need it. My understanding is a horse is very aware of those around it - blindfolding it limits that awareness. How many horses with a full set of blinkers have you seen run down because neither the horse nor the Jockey/Driver saw the other horse coming. Perhaps today we tend to want to get them going early and don't give them enough education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 29 minutes ago, Gammalite said: just a 'Cue' to the horse to put in Chief. and believe me . The horses need a 'Cue'. or they'd just pull up . They love to run , but would only do it on their terms if given the choice . Not the horses I've been involved in. They'd get on the bit when they sensed it was the final bend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted June 23 Share Posted June 23 15 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: If a horse wants to race it doesn't need it. My understanding is a horse is very aware of those around it - blindfolding it limits that awareness. How many horses with a full set of blinkers have you seen run down because neither the horse nor the Jockey/Driver saw the other horse coming. The truth is Chief , a lot of horses like to run, but they don't particularly like to 'race' . horses are a herd animal and love to Run Togeather. as do most herd animals around the world. You are absolutely right that the blinkers will stop the horse seeing the other until very late. Alongside almost. You hope that your horse will engage it in a duel at this stage to run with it , and stay just ahead of it in the drive to the Wire. The driver has done a great job in this photo to apply that formula , and Also note the Great Whip action prompt work that has enabled him to take Victory !! (bummer, sorry that good photo wouldn't copy so have put another one here instead ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted Friday at 12:09 AM Share Posted Friday at 12:09 AM On 23/06/2024 at 6:56 PM, curious said: Certainly is cruel. And as far as I know doesn't make them go any faster than they can. If you have some evidence suggesting otherwise I'd be interested to consider it. Some horses respond to hard driving, you know that. But as you are on some sort of crusade, why have whips then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted Friday at 12:12 AM Share Posted Friday at 12:12 AM On 23/06/2024 at 11:15 PM, Gammalite said: still under the whip 41 years later . at BOAY for past while instead of Alexandra Park nowadays. 😂 getting a flogging lol. Nah , you can make a horse ,sheep,cow, duck ,dog , neighbour,the missus, anyone at all really move a bit quicker if you use the swish whip correctly. You guys forget it's a prompt mainly, and used as a 'cue to move faster' . Watch some buggy and wagon driving on the Net and see some good action. you are actually 'keeping the horses attention' as the priority, no-ones hurting the poor Buggers . they love strutting their stuff. 'Curious' is should be re-labelled 'Confused' if he thinks a whip drive doesn't make them go faster than without. what does he think the drivers are carrying them for then ? To wave to the crowd in a victory salute at the winning post ? 🤣 (Lucky Dr Chin didn't try that lol 😅) Agree with you…. Curious is no doubt a Green Party member…. Prob wants dogs banned too 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted Friday at 12:33 AM Share Posted Friday at 12:33 AM 21 minutes ago, Newmarket said: why have whips then? Good question. I can think of no reason nor find any evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted Friday at 12:37 AM Share Posted Friday at 12:37 AM 24 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Agree with you…. Curious is no doubt a Green Party member…. Prob wants dogs banned too would be far better banning Green Party members! Am I allowed to say they are LOONIES? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted Friday at 12:43 AM Share Posted Friday at 12:43 AM 5 minutes ago, curious said: Good question. I can think of no reason nor find any evidence. If whips were banned, racing would be finished in NZ! Serious punters would not participate if they knew that their horse they had put their hard earned on, was not going to be given its best chance! Far more things to ban than the whip! Ban the Woke BS Lefties, that is the main cause for the state of the world at the moment! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted Friday at 12:43 AM Share Posted Friday at 12:43 AM 30 minutes ago, Newmarket said: Curious is no doubt a Green Party member Couldn't be further from the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted Friday at 12:46 AM Share Posted Friday at 12:46 AM (edited) 5 minutes ago, Brodie said: If whips were banned, racing would be finished in NZ! Serious punters would not participate if they knew that their horse they had put their hard earned on, was not going to be given its best chance! Far more things to ban than the whip! Ban the Woke BS Lefties, that is the main cause for the state of the world at the moment! Didn't hurt turnover in Norway. Or Sweden. Or France or Germany where there is a 5 strike per race limit. Did you not read the article I posted above? Edited Friday at 12:49 AM by curious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted Friday at 12:59 AM Share Posted Friday at 12:59 AM Scandinavia is a small corner of the racing world – yet when it comes to the farcical whip debate once more dominating headlines in Britain, perhaps it is worth looking to the Nordic region to find a meaningful example. Back in 1986, when I was publishing Scanform, a form book covering all races in Norway, Sweden and Denmark, a ban on the use of the whip was introduced in one of these jurisdictions (Norway). It was a political decision, made by the Ministry of Agriculture – and it was irreversible. Like the majority of racing professionals, I was convinced the change would cause problems and be detrimental to the sport. How wrong I was. The change actually helped save the sport in a country where it has been up against it on several snowy fronts for more than a century. Without any question, the prevailing feeling at the time was that races staged without use of the whip would lead to fluky, less formful results with horses underperforming and showing little consistency. As the ban came into force in Norway, the whip was still allowed in Sweden and Denmark. Thus we so-called experts also thought that horses would show improved form when shipped from Norway to compete in the neighbouring countries – and others might be reluctant to put in a good effort at the finish when returning to whipless events at home. We were assuming these things – and we had a lot of support, particularly from riders, though the whip ban had come to stay, both in Thoroughbred racing and on the much bigger harness racing circuit. However, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Slowly but surely we had to admit that we were badly mistaken. We had made assumptions based on theories, not facts, nor on any tests. As the seasons went by the new rules were put to the test. Horses showed the same consistency as in the past, favourites were winning at about a 30% clip, like they had always done – and what about those shippers we thought would run so much better when being whipped? Well, in short, hardly any of them did. Yes, there were a few examples of horses running better in Sweden than they did in Norway – but so few that we had to confess; we were probably dead wrong on this point as well. That a handful of horses did better at Täby Galopp, a flat US-style oval, than around the undulating Øvrevoll, could easily have more to do with the track configurations than with the whip. Handicap figures showed that the form was just as reliable in races without the whip. There was absolutely no evidence supporting the theory that jockeys need to use whips to make horses run as fast as they can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted Friday at 04:02 AM Share Posted Friday at 04:02 AM 2 hours ago, curious said: Scandinavia is a small corner of the racing world – yet when it comes to the farcical whip debate once more dominating headlines in Britain, perhaps it is worth looking to the Nordic region to find a meaningful example. Back in 1986, when I was publishing Scanform, a form book covering all races in Norway, Sweden and Denmark, a ban on the use of the whip was introduced in one of these jurisdictions (Norway). It was a political decision, made by the Ministry of Agriculture – and it was irreversible. Like the majority of racing professionals, I was convinced the change would cause problems and be detrimental to the sport. How wrong I was. The change actually helped save the sport in a country where it has been up against it on several snowy fronts for more than a century. Without any question, the prevailing feeling at the time was that races staged without use of the whip would lead to fluky, less formful results with horses underperforming and showing little consistency. As the ban came into force in Norway, the whip was still allowed in Sweden and Denmark. Thus we so-called experts also thought that horses would show improved form when shipped from Norway to compete in the neighbouring countries – and others might be reluctant to put in a good effort at the finish when returning to whipless events at home. We were assuming these things – and we had a lot of support, particularly from riders, though the whip ban had come to stay, both in Thoroughbred racing and on the much bigger harness racing circuit. However, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing. Slowly but surely we had to admit that we were badly mistaken. We had made assumptions based on theories, not facts, nor on any tests. As the seasons went by the new rules were put to the test. Horses showed the same consistency as in the past, favourites were winning at about a 30% clip, like they had always done – and what about those shippers we thought would run so much better when being whipped? Well, in short, hardly any of them did. Yes, there were a few examples of horses running better in Sweden than they did in Norway – but so few that we had to confess; we were probably dead wrong on this point as well. That a handful of horses did better at Täby Galopp, a flat US-style oval, than around the undulating Øvrevoll, could easily have more to do with the track configurations than with the whip. Handicap figures showed that the form was just as reliable in races without the whip. There was absolutely no evidence supporting the theory that jockeys need to use whips to make horses run as fast as they can. Fair enough Curious. Have always had whips in racing and I believe for the sake of keeping punters, I believe we need to retain them. I do not believe that we will retain punters if the whip was banned, and that is what we need more of, Punters. This Brad Steele who is a mate of Dean Shannon, is probably the last hope for harness racing in NZ! If he does a poor job then in 4 years we are in the shite, as Entain isnt going go be bolstering stakes! You can believe what you hear from Cameron Rodger about more people opening accounts etc. but the proof will be in the pudding! All I know is that they have moved the TAB operations to Ozzie, they have made some stupid decisions and they still restrict punters, when they state they want to increase turnover! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted Friday at 04:41 AM Share Posted Friday at 04:41 AM 3 hours ago, curious said: Didn't hurt turnover in Norway. Or Sweden. Or France or Germany where there is a 5 strike per race limit. Did you not read the article I posted above? But why carry whips at all? It’s proven carrying a whip will not control a horse, especially harness horses 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted Friday at 04:54 AM Share Posted Friday at 04:54 AM 12 minutes ago, Newmarket said: But why carry whips at all? It’s proven carrying a whip will not control a horse, especially harness horses I agree. There's no reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackie Posted Friday at 08:05 AM Share Posted Friday at 08:05 AM 3 hours ago, curious said: I agree. There's no reason. You guys never driven obviously 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted Friday at 09:49 AM Share Posted Friday at 09:49 AM 1 hour ago, Blackie said: You guys never driven obviously 4 hours ago, curious said: I agree. There's no reason. The reason is = You want to win the race. Horses would be pulling up all over the place without there cue to perform. Never drove a race without one, and would of won sum Total of ZERO races if didn't carry a whip to get your horses focus on getting to the line first. That's a pretty Solid, Good Reason. win the race / lol.😂 Here's our boy mark Purdon with some brilliant whip work as usual by the Grand Master, he gets this Star of the track to victory at his very first start. Anyone Pick Who it is ? Ranga would get it straight up (but maybe not the 2nd horse 🤔 ? victory at last ? and without a whip lol 😉) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackie Posted Friday at 10:24 AM Share Posted Friday at 10:24 AM Black Lordship stallion Insutcha? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted Friday at 10:42 AM Share Posted Friday at 10:42 AM 17 minutes ago, Blackie said: Black Lordship stallion Insutcha? No good mate. Not on the money. Mark going the wrong way round has got to ya ? 😅 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackie Posted Friday at 07:14 PM Share Posted Friday at 07:14 PM Yeah, that whip action gets hidden that way round 😀. I’ll keep thinking, must be mid to late 80’s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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