I Can't Understand.

[Rowley Mile]

The programming sucks, whoever organises the NZ Racing calendar is a flawed individual and has contributed to the demise of our beloved industry. The poor buggers who have to trial their horses endlessly to try to earn valuable points enabling them to get a run somewhere is more than sad. Yes, I know there is no money for more racing, but the pool of horses is there, the trial fields in the north prove that, in a perfect world there should be racing in NZ 7 days a week, a race meeting somewhere, everyday.

I'm pushing shit uphill in a barrow, yep, I know that, and I feel ever so sorry for the souls who can't change their world. It is what it is for now, maybe Messara will bring some change for the better, who knows,  at the very least it's caused serious debate.

As sure as the world turns there are some, especially in the north, and a select few in the south who have never seen the grass so green, therefore only a grass roots revolt will change things dramatically and I can't see that happening.

For the next month at least the Chch residents will enjoy their Cup carnival so thats nice, when reality sets in late in Nov I hope for all your sakes, horses included, that a change happens, a gradual one, anything, I've always been an optimist, glass half full type, for the first time in many years though I feel a sense of hopelessness for the NZ racing industry.......God help me be wrong.

[Huey]

Unfortunately with or without Messara NZ racing will not progress until you get personnel in positions of influence in the NZRB and NZTR that know what it is to breed a horse, own a horse , punt on a horse and understand the thrill and ideology around doing so not only for those at the top end of the sport but the common man involved in it. 

Until that happens we are just moving chairs and that's why we have the Messara report. 

[mardigras]

I'd disagree with racing everyday in NZ.

I think about 200-220 meetings a year is ample. Or about 2/3rds of what they have now.

If they have horses to race, proper scheduling would solve that.

[FeelTheFear]

As a punter I don't want more races, just quality riding and tracks. 

[hesi]

Yep, didn't even bother looking at Waipa fields today

[Rowley Mile]

1 hour ago, Huey said:

Unfortunately with or without Messara NZ racing will not progress until you get personnel in positions of influence in the NZRB and NZTR that know what it is to breed a horse, own a horse , punt on a horse and understand the thrill and ideology around doing so not only for those at the top end of the sport but the common man involved in it. 

Until that happens we are just moving chairs and that's why we have the Messara report. 

But Huey, pain is natures warning, be it physical or fiscal, and NZ has been in this state for too long, too long. I think most intelligent people know what the answer is, beginning with retrenchments,  it's never going to happen, never, those at the top won't resign, they are beyond embarrassment and don't accept any responsibility. I'm beginning to believe most of you are correct, Mr Peters is a windbag, he has the power to direct changes immediately, the Messara report aside. It's unfathomable that these people continue in their salaried positions Huey.

We had to retrench staff that weren't performing, to save our business and the jobs of other staff members, why is the NZTR NZRB any different? Oh, of course, our business is profitable and there's isn't, plus we own our own business and they are salary takers, so who's going to rock the boat?

How they look one another in the face at Petone and Parnell is beyond me, but they must be all the same ilk, the shop floor workers at NZTR are probably as bewildered as we are, and No, I don't hold them responsible, only the decision makers who don't make decisions or make/made the wrong ones and aren't accountable.

I'm pissing in the wind, and almost expired, so I'll finish by saying, it's a big ship that carries a lot of passengers, MV NZ RACING......but it's run aground and is sinking, there won't be enough lifeboats to go around, the casualties will be horrendous, and who will be called to account? The Captain? or the crew?

[Rowley Mile]

51 minutes ago, FeelTheFear said:

As a punter I don't want more races, just quality riding and tracks. 

But there are owners/breeders/jockeys/trainers/farriers and a multitude of others who do FTF, and who deserve a right and proper industry, as a punter you have an option of Oz racing, or elsewhere, the poor buggers that derive an existence from this industry should be respected and looked after........what an absolute disgrace.

[FeelTheFear]

9 minutes ago, Rowley Mile said:

But there are owners/breeders/jockeys/trainers/farriers and a multitude of others who do FTF, and who deserve a right and proper industry, as a punter you have an option of Oz racing, or elsewhere, the poor buggers that derive an existence from this industry should be respected and looked after........what an absolute disgrace.

Yes, I was just speaking for myself as a punter. I can't speak for others

[Horseboy]

While everyone harps on about tracks they are missing the biggest win out of the Messara Report. Restructuring. 
Right now when something goes wrong who is to blame? Well half was done by NZRB that was a function historically delegated to them by NZTR, but NZTR was still involved in the process of consultation and as the major stakeholder should have carried alot of weight, but the reality was that NZRB didn't actually have to listen to them because the only person they are accountable to was a board of suits appointed by polly from wellington who doesn't give a rats arse about racing.
This has been the structure for 15 years.
Restructuring won't fix everything right away, but the closer to the coal face and accountable that bodies actually running racing are the more racing PEOPLE can actually push for change without layers of bureaucratic government monopoly insulating them.
Ask yourself why haven't the trainers gone on strike when the situation and stakes are so dire?
Because there is no point, the organisation that has ultimate say and holds the purse strings will just play dogs out of Australia on trackside if an NZ meeting gets canned to strike action.
 

[Reefton]

1 hour ago, Horseboy said:

While everyone harps on about tracks they are missing the biggest win out of the Messara Report. Restructuring. 
Right now when something goes wrong who is to blame? Well half was done by NZRB that was a function historically delegated to them by NZTR, but NZTR was still involved in the process of consultation and as the major stakeholder should have carried alot of weight, but the reality was that NZRB didn't actually have to listen to them because the only person they are accountable to was a board of suits appointed by polly from wellington who doesn't give a rats arse about racing.
This has been the structure for 15 years.
Restructuring won't fix everything right away, but the closer to the coal face and accountable that bodies actually running racing are the more racing PEOPLE can actually push for change without layers of bureaucratic government monopoly insulating them.
Ask yourself why haven't the trainers gone on strike when the situation and stakes are so dire?
Because there is no point, the organisation that has ultimate say and holds the purse strings will just play dogs out of Australia on trackside if an NZ meeting gets canned to strike action.
 

Been saying that for years.

To the NZRB and TAB the stakeholders are just a pain in the arse continually complaining about their performance.  The best thing that could ever happen to those two is complete collapse of the racing industry then they could sail happily along playing the send leg from Outer Mongolia to keep the mug punters happy, getting trips around the world and regular and substantial payrises.  Life would be simple

[gee]

lol   you think things will change at the top your dreaming 

[Reefton]

Just now, gee said:

lol   you think things will change at the top your dreaming 

And that summarises the tragedy that is NZ racing right now

[mardigras]

15 hours ago, Rowley Mile said:

But there are owners/breeders/jockeys/trainers/farriers and a multitude of others who do FTF, and who deserve a right and proper industry, as a punter you have an option of Oz racing, or elsewhere, the poor buggers that derive an existence from this industry should be respected and looked after........what an absolute disgrace.

The jockeys/trainers/farriers are catered for by a lot less racing on the basis the industry is the size it should be based on all the economic factors. And therefore the rewards associated with those 'occupations' are commensurate with where they should be.

The breeders - that's breeding, not racing - and to continue breeding on the basis that the local racing industry should be catering for you is senseless.

The owners - similar to the breeders. And they have choices. 

The industry should be at the size that relates to the economic metrics of it. I don't open up 10,000 bakeries in NZ based on wanting to provide my breads everywhere if there is no economic justification for doing so. And then expect the government to prop all my bakeries up.

The racing industry shouldn't be looking for financial handouts simply based on the reality that there is insufficient interest in the industry to generate the revenue that allows an industry that size to be sustainable.

My earlier assertion around a lot less races - is probably still too big as a racing industry. The economics of the industry simply don't stack up. 

[Rowley Mile]

I could argue all day long, your metrics are impressive however. I'm lucky enough to have lived in many countries, run business's in them, I have been self employed for 45 years, and have a passion for racing that sees no bounds, however, I have never experienced the lack of commercial realism that is NZ......Racing is no different. Create an interesting concept and people will invest/attend/contribute, NZ had an interesting concept, racing, it destroyed it, blaming the new generation for lack of interest is laughable, and I'm not implying you did that, only that many do......marketing is our core business, we witnessed during our three years in NZ a complete lack of marketing prowess by the two governing bodies, and I use that term loosely as they couldn't govern a desert island. In general Rod you have labeled it all correctly, that without revenue you can't sustain any business, and that's the elephant in the room....In QLD the return to the GOV and the State from racing is more than 1.5 billion annually, that was stated on UBET TAB radio yesterday, so the GOV has come to it's senses. God thank them for that, without that realisation QLD would have headed down the same path as NZ.......oblivion. 

[Reefton]

There are three basic issues here especially in light of the comparison and second cousin status with Aussie racing...

First Australian racing is clearly massively supported by the various state governments(you only need to see the Queensland Government's reaction last weekend to that strike).  If we had a racing 'strike' the government would roll about laughing and the TAB would, as has previously been said, simply replace NZ racing with product from Outer Mongolia or somewhere/anywhere else they could get it.  Nobody would notice and even fewer would care.  We are not going to get government assistance when (1) the vast majority of the population doesn't give a stuff about the industry, (2) there are public servants constantly bleating(rightly or wrongly)about how hard done by they are and how they deserve huge payrises and (3) there is this perceived(again rightly or wrongly) issue with poverty, homelessness and social issues demanding funding.

Following on from that is their(Aussie) concessionary tax regime for Breeders which has resulted in Godolphin and Coolmore(among others) setting up over there with a vastly higher standard of stallions.  Subsequently the NZ breeding Industry has been left behind and our sales are (1) being dominated more and more by Australian bred (or at least Australian stallion sired) product and (2) becoming less and less relevant in terms of international achievements of sales graduates.  The Breeders might think the Messara proposals are going  to save them but I cannot for the life of me see how that is going to change unless the government really gets behind the industry (and that ain't going to happen - it is not politically acceptable bottom line).  And the Aussie Trainers are now looking more and more to English sales of tried horses to get horses they know have shown ability at competitive prices(plus the frightening domination of the current carnival by international trained runners).

And third is this clear and total indifference to the plight of the industry of the hierarchy (especially the NZRB board) in the game.  That is of course something the Government could easily change but show no sign of doing.  Winston has a vague suggestion of a 'review'(haven't we had enough reviews?).  The NZRB board simply don't care(and one wonders if the NZTR Board are any more sympathetic)

So as it stands we are stuffed.  The revenue being generated cannot support current stakes levels, the Messara report is clearly not going to go through lock stock and barrel(and will not work anyway to achieve what they claim) and the NZ product (both the horses produced and the racing itself) become less and less attractive by the day.  I know this talk is negative but it is reality.

In the National Party thread I compared the racing industry to the West Coast region.  We have so much potential just waiting to be tapped but the government of the day(and every other government in living memory) is determined to strangle that potential by refusing to allow us access to the resources we need.  In racing's case it is the attitude that it is a 'fat cats' industry for the rich and a resultant determination that it be screwed to the ground by taxation and duties.  The fact that the public know Winston's backers are a small number of wealthy racing enthusiasts does not help that impression.

And in both case the problem arises from the fact that there are simply not enough votes in either the Industry or on the West Coast to make taking up the cudgels attractive to any MP(except Winston of course and most of the country think - again rightly or wrongly - he is an idiot).  It is desperately frustrating and really quite depressing but it is reality and whatever De Lore and co, Hogan and Chittick and their mob, David Ellis and the Waikato Trainers might think we are stuck in this shit hole with no way out.

Imagine if was here that Coolmore and Godolphin had set up and where the Sheik and Magnier's millions were being poured into? 

The reality is we may as well accept that the international racing industry has passed us by.  We are never going to have a field of Winx's ridden by a range of Dettori's or Moriera's.  Until the inevitable collapse comes and government takes notice that is the way it is.

[mardigras]

7 minutes ago, Reefton said:

There are three basic issues here especially in light of the comparison and second cousin status with Aussie racing...

First Australian racing is clearly massively supported by the various state governments(you only need to see the Queensland Government's reaction last weekend to that strike). 

What is one of the real basic issues is how massively misunderstood the difference is between the NZ racing model and the Australian one.

The NZ government is easily giving more to NZ racing than any Australian one. I'm talking racing there. It is verifiable. It is obvious. Yet most in NZ don't understand it. Which is why pointless comparisons get made.

[Reefton]

3 minutes ago, mardigras said:

What is one of the real basic issues is how massively misunderstood the difference is between the NZ racing model and the Australian one.

The NZ government is easily giving more to NZ racing than any Australian one. I'm talking racing there. It is verifiable. It is obvious. Yet most in NZ don't understand it. Which is why pointless comparisons get made.

how?

[mardigras]

Just now, Reefton said:

how?

Totalisator operator license fees, income tax. Something all of NSW, VIC and QLD get from the operators to operate, that is not having to be provided by NZRB.

In NZ, ALL the revenue is gifted to the NZ racing industry. That is nowhere near the case in Australia. The states do not give out more than what they receive from the license fees etc. 

I'll repeat the example from earlier. Tabcorp had to pay VIC State government $410m upfront for a 12 year license to operate as the sole totalisator business. Which easily equates to $40m per year the state government can pay back to the industry without touching any money it didn't actually get from Tabcorp to begin with.

 

[mardigras]

Furthermore, it's a model NZ should have moved to years ago given the relatively small population and limited nous in this field. A business driven by profit will aim to deliver because it has to. An organisation like NZRB has zero accountability and they all carry on regardless of outcomes.

Along with the ability of NZ to receive a fee to maybe put towards infrastructure etc for the long term benefit of the industry. No doubt why WA has finally woken up - maybe they are as slow as us.

[Reefton]

That is and example of taking not giving.  I asked how the NZ government gives more to the industry here than does the Aussie governments?

Do you think that Racing industry participants in this country do not pay income tax(to be fair a lot of them will be paying none based on their incomes)

And does the TAB not pay duty and GST on it's income?

[mardigras]

7 minutes ago, Reefton said:

That is and example of taking not giving.  I asked how the NZ government gives more to the industry here than does the Aussie governments?

Well, the NZ government gives ALL of the net revenue generated by the TAB. Don't you think that is more than what the likes of Tabcorp + the state handouts give the industry - given the states are only giving back a portion of what the operator gave them to begin with (which they have to earn). Which means the industry in Australia is getting less than the ALL.

As for income tax. I'm talking income tax paid by the betting operators. I think the participants in Australia pay tax as well. FFS.

GST and duties are paid by the betting operators. So I'm not sure of your point.

Edited November 1, 2018 by mardigras

[Reefton]

14 minutes ago, mardigras said:

Well, the NZ government gives ALL of the net revenue generated by the TAB. Don't you think that is more than what the likes of Tabcorp + the state handouts give the industry - given the states are only giving back a portion of what the operator gave them to begin with (which they have to earn). Which means the industry in Australia is getting less than the ALL.

As for income tax. I'm talking income tax paid by the betting operators. I think the participants in Australia pay tax as well. FFS.

GST and duties are paid by the betting operators. So I'm not sure of your point.

So why is the NZ industry not booming ( and don't tell me the diversity of betting operators is the reason because you just said they take more out of betting revenue than does the NZ TAB).  From the sounds of things the NZ Industry is deluding itself that it is effed.

[mardigras]

7 minutes ago, Reefton said:

So why is the NZ industry not booming ( and don't tell me the diversity of betting operators is the reason because you just said they take more out of betting revenue than does the NZ TAB).  From the sounds of things the NZ Industry is deluding itself that it is effed.

They take more out. But they aren't run by a bunch of incompetents.

But apart form that, NZ has a different profile from a betting perspective. Given that profile, there was always a need to maximise the level of net revenue against that. By extending what they operated on without considering the impact to their cost model, all they did was dilute what they had in net terms. And at the same time, they started a drive of shifting interest in NZ racing elsewhere.

Which leaves us where we are now. Dependent on the revenues earned from jurisdictions outside NZ and no revenue coming from NZ racing. Good work.

Edited November 1, 2018 by mardigras

[Chief Stipe]

Yep.  They also are trying to compete in a global market with a higher cost product.

[Reefton]

Tabcorp and those outfits are all public Companies aren't they?  Do you expect the Aussie Government to subsidise public companies as well?  And another thing - there must be a quid in it for them because otherwise why would they bother?  Just set up in the northern territory like the bookies and work out of there.