Forget about the history what's the F-ing track going to be like?!

[Assange]

No report up yet?

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, Assange said:

No report up yet?

Nope.  No doubt they are doing a joint creative writing exercise.

I wonder if they will change the recent trend of not posting the Steward's video.

[Special Agent]

Stipes' Report was up earlier.  Have they taken it down for editing?

The whole lot at ARC and whoever rubber stamped the project at NZTR need to go.  I have no idea what Paul Wilcox's credentials are but, he talks with a high opinion of himself, unfounded it seems.

A track not cambered correctly is a recipe for disaster.

If anyone thinks a bit more tinkering and a whole lot more money is going to rectify this embarrassing problem they should hold their head/s in shame.  Forget Ellerslie.  Without the hill it is just another ordinary course.  Sell it lock, stock and barrel and start afresh in the countryside before all the "investment fund" is gone.  And a message to all those clubs which have been told to sell their assets to bolster this imaginary fund ... DON'T DO IT!!  We've all had a lesson on what happens to industry funds.

[Newmarket]

Just to refresh my memory…. How long did the track take to get repaired and at what cost? Ta

[The Centaur]

Why do most clubs run their main race as the second to last. If its 10 races on the programme then its Race9. By that time most patrons are tired and want to go home. Also by that time the track is in worse condition than say race 5. Lets be logical. Have the main race mid afternoon before Australians get engrossed in their features and not late afternoon. Too many feature races are falling by the wayside unnecessarily.

[Huey]

8 hours ago, The Centaur said:

Why do most clubs run their main race as the second to last. If its 10 races on the programme then its Race9. By that time most patrons are tired and want to go home. Also by that time the track is in worse condition than say race 5. Lets be logical. Have the main race mid afternoon before Australians get engrossed in their features and not late afternoon. Too many feature races are falling by the wayside unnecessarily.

Thats a good point, I guess the thinking is they are keeping punters there for longer.

[Chief Stipe]

From the Stewards Report:

LANIKAI (M Cameron) – Over-raced through the early and middle stages. Lost its footing when racing free of interference rounding the final turn approaching the 400 metres.

As a result of LANIKAI losing its footing near the 400 metres a meeting was convened with all riders, Stipendiary Stewards and Club Representatives. A track inspection was then undertaken which found a number of slip marks in the area near the 400 metres. A further meeting was then held between Stipendiary Stewards, Jockey Representatives and Club Officials following which the remaining two races were abandoned by the Stipendiary Stewards due to safety concerns.

 

[Chief Stipe]

 

[Chief Stipe]

13 hours ago, Special Agent said:

A track not cambered correctly is a recipe for disaster.

Yes but the tighter the corner the more camber you need.  I don't believe that is the problem at Ellerslie.  It isn't shaped like Moonee Valley.  Pictures below.  The issue is the track however the two corners that they should have reshaped because either money or marketing spin got in the way i.e. they wanted to retain the "iconic shape of Ellerslie".  The corner at the top of the straight is a bit of a dog leg (you couldn't camber it if you tried) and the one out of the straight is worse.  You only have to watch a 2000m or 2400m race to see the latter.  Why they don't slip going out of the straight has me baffled but perhaps it is because it is uphill.

They should have reshaped the course slightly.  The sweeping corner is slightly cambered but the curve (until you get to turn in) is gradual enough to not need much cambering.

Moonee Valley and Ellerslie - roughly to scale.  

 

 

[billy connolly]

34 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why they don't slip going out of the straight has me baffled but perhaps it is because it is uphill.

The majority of horses who loose their footing do so whilst negotiating bends under pressure, which correlates to the final 600/800 metres of a race and any moisture on the surface exacerbates the problem.

By not banking/cambering this track, Ellerslie have either ignored or have been given wrong advice.

They could've got away with running the last two races yesterday but to my eye they're going to have to completely rebuild this track with camber as they're currently relying on luck to get them through their meetings.

 

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, billy connolly said:

The majority of horses who loose their footing do so whilst negotiating bends under pressure, which correlates to the final 600/800 metres of a race and any moisture on the surface exacerbates the problem.

By not banking/cambering this track, Ellerslie have either ignored or have been given wrong advice.

They could've got away with running the last two races yesterday but to my eye they're going to have to completely rebuild this track with camber as they're currently relying on luck to get them through their meetings.

 

You're completely ignoring my point.  It isn't the camber it's primarily the track surface that is causing the problem.  Putting more camber on it will result in them slipping sideways more. 

If it was the camber then why aren't they slipping every race meeting?  There are many tracks that have tigher bends but zero camber and yet no slipping.  Why?  It's because the horses can get a grip on the surface.

The shape of the final part of the bend into the straight doesn't help Ellerslie.

But to pursue your point how much camber would be needed?

 

[billy connolly]

22 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Putting more camber on it will result in them slipping sideways more.

Take it from me squire, horses do not and will not slip on a cambered surface.

 

27 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

There are many tracks that have tighter bends but zero camber and yet no slipping.  Why?

Because they primarily race within summer months whereby moisture isn't a problem.

 

28 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

But to pursue your point how much camber would be needed?

As much camber to prevent a fatality.

[Chief Stipe]

19 minutes ago, billy connolly said:

Take it from me squire, horses do not and will not slip on a cambered surface.

I'm telling you now it isn't the camber or your assumed lack of that is the problem.  Have you walked the track?  The horses hooves are not penetrating the surface due to the grass type and root matting at the top layer.  That is a fact and is the only piece of truth that we have seen so far.  The rest of the nonsense is a deflection.  Hell even the merchant who sold them the gravel and sand is saying it is the camber and that it couldn't be fixed because of the volcanic rock!  Which is nonsense when they can dig a bloody big hole!

There is a camber but your theory is there isn't or it isn't sufficient.  How big a camber should there be for that curve?

 

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

28 minutes ago, billy connolly said:

Because they primarily race within summer months whereby moisture isn't a problem.

LOL - like Ellerslie did in January?

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, billy connolly said:

As much camber to prevent a fatality.

Which is how much?

 

[curious]

If you read the stipes' report, there were also a significant number of horses reported as beginning awkwardly or blundering the start. Can't say that's due to insecure footing for sure, but it points in that direction and at least a couple of them, that's what it looks like.  As does the reported increase in kickback at Monday's trials. Neither of those have anything to do with camber.

[Chief Stipe]

17 minutes ago, curious said:

If you read the stipes' report, there were also a significant number of horses reported as beginning awkwardly or blundering the start. Can't say that's due to insecure footing for sure, but it points in that direction and at least a couple of them, that's what it looks like.  As does the reported increase in kickback at Monday's trials. Neither of those have anything to do with camber.

I'll also suggest that the trainer reassesses if the Jockey reports his horse didn't cope with the right hand way round for the first time.  Compare yesterdays report with Karaka Millions night.  Maybe The Easter Handicap isn't iconic enough for it to have continued.

I see the proposed new Moonee Valley track is going to have bends with a radius of 125m and a camber of 3.5%.  The final bend at Ellerslie has a radius much greater than 125m.

[Assange]

1 hour ago, curious said:

If you read the stipes' report, there were also a significant number of horses reported as beginning awkwardly or blundering the start. Can't say that's due to insecure footing for sure, but it points in that direction and at least a couple of them, that's what it looks like.  As does the reported increase in kickback at Monday's trials. Neither of those have anything to do with camber.

Sometimes its not whats in the Stipes Report, its whats not in the Stipes Report.

Only 1x horse noted to have slipped but a number of slip marks.

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, Assange said:

Only 1x horse noted to have slipped but a number of slip marks.

So when did the first horse slip?

Did the Stewards inspect the track after race 1 or race 2 or race 3...?  Or gallop a horse on the problem part BEFORE the race started?

[billy connolly]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

There is a camber but your theory is there isn't or it isn't sufficient.  How big a camber should there be for that curve?

That's not enough camber for Ellerslie's home bend, it may be sufficient for tracks like Flemington and Riccarton who have big sweeping home bends but it's not adequate for Ellerslie.

Horses don't slip galloping in a straight line (unless Mills is running the show) they slip on bends, notably the home bend whilst under pressure.

Put a negative camber on a bend and the field will not negotiate it at all and likely end up in the car park or nearest street.

 

[Chief Stipe]

49 minutes ago, billy connolly said:

That's not enough camber for Ellerslie's home bend, it may be sufficient for tracks like Flemington and Riccarton who have big sweeping home bends but it's not adequate for Ellerslie.

Horses don't slip galloping in a straight line (unless Mills is running the show) they slip on bends, notably the home bend whilst under pressure.

Put a negative camber on a bend and the field will not negotiate it at all and likely end up in the car park or nearest street.

 

So since the camber hasn't changed how many times were meetings cancelled on the old track for slipping?

[curious]

 

6 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I'll also suggest that the trainer reassesses if the Jockey reports his horse didn't cope with the right hand way round for the first time.  Compare yesterdays report with Karaka Millions night.  Maybe The Easter Handicap isn't iconic enough for it to have continued.

I see the proposed new Moonee Valley track is going to have bends with a radius of 125m and a camber of 3.5%.  The final bend at Ellerslie has a radius much greater than 125m.

In the track inspection today (don't know if they flew a couple over from Oz to help), I certainly hope they bother to go round and have a look for slip marks elsewhere including the start points.

[Special Agent]

With no jumping at Ellerslie couldn't the bends have any amount of camber?  As far as the track surface goes, irrespective of what the make up of that surface is, I still believe the consolodation time was not nearly enough.

In an early race a horse lost all four plates.  The Stipes have become ridiculous on plate inspections so they must have been on tightly and properly prior to the race.  As curious says there were indicators early in the programme that all was not well with the surface with slipping.

All we all want is for the truth to be told and common sense to be applied.  After a horse lost all four plates, horses were blundering at the start, and horses slipping in the running, why were stringent investigations not undertaken?  Why are the Stipes' Reports not a true run down on what has happened?

I agree with The Centaur that the major race of the day at the end of the programme is counter productive.  Trying to keep punters on board longer is at the detriment of the state of the track.  If you are going to lose the tail end of the programme it makes more sense that those races are of lessor grade.

Edited April 21 by Special Agent

[Special Agent]

Just now, Special Agent said:

With no jumping at Ellerslie couldn't the bends have any amount of camber?  As far as the track surface goes, irrespective of what the make up of that surface is, I still believe the consolodation time was not nearly enough.

In an early race a horse lost all four plates.  The Stipes have become ridiculous on plate inspections so they must have been on tightly and properly prior to the race.  As curious says there were indicators early in the programme that all was not well with the surface with slipping.

All we all want is for the truth to be told and common sense to be applied.  After a horse lost all four plates, horses were blundering at the start, and horses slipping in the running, why were stringent investigations not undertaken?  Why are the Stipes' Reports not a true run down on what has happened?

I agree with The Centaur that the major race of the day at the end of the programme is counter productive.  Trying to keep punters on board longer is at the detriment of the state of the track.  If you are going to lose the tail end of the programme it makes more sense that those races are of lessor grade.

 

[curious]

Well, it sounds like Guerin doesn't understand what a matted root structure is and no-one he can think to ring knows either or can explain what's wrong with the track. Emily thinks it's a matter of trial and error. Why not get someone from Strathayr that does know, on the show to explain? So they will continue to race on it to see whether or not they have it sorted. And the stakeholders will be left hanging in the dark? Really? That's what's not good enough I think.