TAB For Ever Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 15 hours ago, Freda said: Not getting into this willy-waving contest, but....Synthetic tracks are not the same as 'dirt' tracks, and American dirt is not the same as Australian 'red dirt' surfaces as prevalent on country/bush tracks, or sand, and even Strathayr has a 'synthetic' component...just saying. In previous discussions with the Chief my angle has included these various types of surfaces under the group heading of AWT. ie Non-turf tracks. Chief seemed happy with this comparison . I much prefer turf tracks , but just making the Chief aware of the numbers. I'm sure he appreciates your support ,as the tight-five seem to be deserting him. But he probably not so enamoured by the fact you OK racing on the Synthetic ! And no willy contest for me ,got shot off in the war. Plus I'd never prove a match for the Chief...he knows a lot of stuff ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 On 7/22/2024 at 8:54 AM, Chief Stipe said: Which track hasn't? Pouring through old Racing Board/NZTR annual reports (perhaps Messara and @TAB For Ever should do that) you can see numerous loans or free grants to fix drainage on the courses we are now betting our future on. Messara's report is looking more like a bag of hunches. Sorry Chief ,wrong again ,no points scored here I'm afraid. Did you come across the Neilson Research which sped up the establishment of the RIU...more suits brought in.More self inflicted misery ! Racing one of 6x major NZ sports graded by public against 13 Attributes. Racing came last in 11 of them ! 41% of people thought racing had a problem with corruption. Only 22% thought racing did business with honesty and Integrity . Most damning ,only 16% of NZ had a positive impression of racing and wagering ! While checking out the NZTR loans etc did you also look at the Govt's Racing Safety Development Fund[ Foxton and South Cant got a bit in the latest] and the previous reliance by many Clubs on Pokie Grants. Don't just be selective ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAB For Ever Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 13 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Really - Everybody? There is that marketing spin again. Well reducing them hasn't made things better has it. Perhaps we should have made more and engaged more communities, trainers and support staff. Was never going to be perfect because the descision was made on the wrong assumptions and incorrect evidence. Why was Kumara chosen overy Westland? The latter had an engaged community, cash in the bank and ran successful racedays. No I asked why is it so difficult. I also asked surely there is better technology available that doesn't involve the need for a Broadcast Van. How do you televise from some of those remote places in Australia where the distances between tracks are enormous. I suspect the issues in NZ are the product of old school thinking, a mates network and a poorly managed outsource contract over decades. You are so wrong regarding my interest in horses and racing. However that isn't the point. What motivates me is that I keep seeing gross mismangement of this industry and fat cats in suits getting fatter. The decline isn't anything to do with your theories on DNA and too many racecourse it is all to do with decades of mismanagement. Nope - it is well worth doing and I suggest you give it a go because what you will quickly see (assuming you take your murphy blinds off) is that we are repeating the same mistakes we have been making for 60 years. Nothing has changed. I think it was Churchill that said "the only thing we learn from history is we don't learn from history". Do you think it might be the time to do the opposite of what we are doing? Love the quotes Chief...been a while since the Fiddler playing while Rome burned ! No way can I match your knowledge but I honestly question if you actually like Horses and Horse racing. You admit to spending decades tryng to improve decision making and halt the decline ! Do you seriously think anyone reading your threads/comments would guess that you are trying to achieve thataim. I watched in for 2 years and never thought that. To use a fav Marketing term I think you are 'winking in the dark'...you know what you doing but no-one else does. If I had your motivation...and you say you done it for decades...it would make more sense to join a club or committee or an Owners association and get noticed that way.Maybe start up , NZ Racetrack Surfaces Action group and grow a membership and get a voice in discussions. To use another Marketing lesson...Easier on the inside pissing out ,than the outside pissing in ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 7 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: In previous discussions with the Chief my angle has included these various types of surfaces under the group heading of AWT. ie Non-turf tracks. Chief seemed happy with this comparison . I much prefer turf tracks , but just making the Chief aware of the numbers. I'm sure he appreciates your support ,as the tight-five seem to be deserting him. But he probably not so enamoured by the fact you OK racing on the Synthetic ! And no willy contest for me ,got shot off in the war. Plus I'd never prove a match for the Chief...he knows a lot of stuff ! Yes, I'm ok racing on the synthetic, with a horse that suits it. Not all do, and to be forced to race there or nowhere is simply not acceptable. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 6 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: Love the quotes Chief...been a while since the Fiddler playing while Rome burned ! No way can I match your knowledge but I honestly question if you actually like Horses and Horse racing. You admit to spending decades tryng to improve decision making and halt the decline ! Do you seriously think anyone reading your threads/comments would guess that you are trying to achieve thataim. I watched in for 2 years and never thought that. To use a fav Marketing term I think you are 'winking in the dark'...you know what you doing but no-one else does. If I had your motivation...and you say you done it for decades...it would make more sense to join a club or committee or an Owners association and get noticed that way.Maybe start up , NZ Racetrack Surfaces Action group and grow a membership and get a voice in discussions. To use another Marketing lesson...Easier on the inside pissing out ,than the outside pissing in ! Join a club or committee, you say?...there will be many on here who have been part of those, and no doubt have tired of the same old rhetoric. Form another splinter group, you reckon? Fk me, there are more than enough partisan groups, most achieving absolutely nothing. More and more upper levels of administration; at a time when our Govt is doing its best to strip away much of the self-important and unaccountable layers of management. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 1 hour ago, Freda said: Join a club or committee, you say?...there will be many on here who have been part of those, and no doubt have tired of the same old rhetoric. Form another splinter group, you reckon? Fk me, there are more than enough partisan groups, most achieving absolutely nothing. More and more upper levels of administration; at a time when our Govt is doing its best to strip away much of the self-important and unaccountable layers of management. Yeah why join a committee when the RIU and NZTR screw you over. Just ask @Reefton , New Plymouth, Ruakaka, Westland committees. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 9 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: To use another Marketing lesson...Easier on the inside pissing out ,than the outside pissing in ! usually so, but not always. re the 'putting the jockeys on and sending them around in the first', 100% I was outside the tent, those inside were playing ostriches! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 9 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: 41% of people thought racing had a problem with corruption. Only 22% thought racing did business with honesty and Integrity . Most damning ,only 16% of NZ had a positive impression of racing and wagering !. Don't just be selective ! lol, they seem a tad low!!!!!! ps. would love a link to said research? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 9 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: While checking out the NZTR loans etc did you also look at the Govt's Racing Safety Development Fund[ Foxton and South Cant got a bit in the latest] and the previous reliance by many Clubs on Pokie Grants. Don't just be selective ! You miss the point or you are deliberately obfuscating. Yes some of the chosen few have been reliant on interest free loans, grants, pokie money and other "free" funding. Many haven't had that charity and have done it themselves. There seems to be a strong correlation between those that got the most external funding and the poor state of their tracks. Not to mention their lack of profitability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 2 hours ago, Freda said: Form another splinter group, you reckon? Fk me, there are more than enough partisan groups, most achieving absolutely nothing. The common issue is a lack of strong leadership and a focus on the core issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted July 23 Share Posted July 23 11 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: You admit to spending decades tryng to improve decision making and halt the decline ! Do you seriously think anyone reading your threads/comments would guess that you are trying to achieve thataim. I watched in for 2 years and never thought that. What have you done other than promote the Messara report? Certainly beats your approach which is "oh well I can't change anything so I'll just enjoy things as they are and go to all the parties..." - meanwhile the decline continues. 11 hours ago, TAB For Ever said: it would make more sense to join a club or committee Out of interest when was the last time you were on a Racing Club Committee? What was your biggest achievement other than accepting the Messara Report? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assange Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 23 hours ago, curious said: I never heard of that before as a reason to abandon a meeting. It was clearly not unsafe or slippery like meetings they commenced and then abandoned or in at least one case continued recently including Ellerslie. Whether they got more rain on the day or not (which they didn't), it was never going to become unsafe. At this stage, there seems to be no good reason in relation to the track condition to abandon the meeting at considerable cost to participants. What concerned me about this is the fact that the RIB overrode Lisa Allpress after she did a gallop on the track to check that it is safe. I would say Lisa would be the most qualified jockey to make this decision. Certainly not the stipes. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 33 minutes ago, Assange said: What concerned me about this is the fact that the RIB overrode Lisa Allpress after she did a gallop on the track to check that it is safe. I would say Lisa would be the most qualified jockey to make this decision. Certainly not the stipes. Yes. It makes the whole process farcical. It would be appropriate for the next rider to be asked for their opinion to refuse point blank. I know its a VERY long bow...but an ok verdict re. a track's condition could then leave that rider liable in the event of an accident. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 32 minutes ago, Freda said: Yes. It makes the whole process farcical. It would be appropriate for the next rider to be asked for their opinion to refuse point blank. I know its a VERY long bow...but an ok verdict re. a track's condition could then leave that rider liable in the event of an accident. Excuse me you're more likely to have an accident on a G3 than a "bottomless H10"! This liability issue is BS. If it isn't then they should stop paying their insurance premiums. Lisa Allpress wouldn't have been liable. She gave her opinion based on her professional knowledge. Legally that's all that is required. No horse would have fallen over on that track - more likely to end up standing still and the jockey falling off because he or she was going faster forward than the horse! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 (edited) This is a spot where industrial action could work. Senior riders could refuse to ride race morning track gallops for clubs until the industry has an assurance that their opinion on the track condition will be given full weight in the assessment of the track condition. Edited July 24 by curious 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 And trainers could refuse to supply horses for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted July 24 Share Posted July 24 58 minutes ago, curious said: And trainers could refuse to supply horses for that. Look at it another way. How many tracks are cancelled or abandoned during the week? Or is it just raceday that everyone is worried about just because a Stipe might be liable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted August 2 Author Share Posted August 2 On 7/23/2024 at 10:04 PM, TAB For Ever said: Messara's excellent piece of work was an overall strategic plan and given as a suggestion ,and it was largely accepted by those at the coalface in NZ so obviously largely endorsed. Is this a serious comment? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special Agent Posted August 2 Author Share Posted August 2 Commissioned vs suggestion. "Largely" accepted and endorsed. Where did this come from? "Those at the coalface". Who? How many will stand up and be counted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 (edited) 2 hours ago, Special Agent said: Commissioned vs suggestion. "Largely" accepted and endorsed. Where did this come from? "Those at the coalface". Who? How many will stand up and be counted? Not many I knew at the coal face supported it, and it hasn't been implemented anyway. It was supposed to be a six year track reduction plan accompanied by a "required program of renovation at the remaining tracks throughout New Zealand. The cost of this program is calculated at about $190 million and I believe this would be broadly consistent with estimates made by NZTR if only 28 tracks were to be retained." I think part of this has largely gone missing in the implementation to date. Edited August 3 by curious 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 53 minutes ago, curious said: The cost of this program is calculated at about $190 million Did that include the Ellerslie $55m? I haven't met anyone yet that agreed with the plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 50 minutes ago, curious said: Not many I knew at the coal face supported it Via my FB acc and the CWJ page, I tried to champion people to have a say! Literally 100's of CF workers, trainers etc a very eclectic lot! were critical! I'm sure some themes could be drawn from all the comments, one I recon was the 'procedural way' it was rolled out, seemly always lacking re info. No One from Head Office ever fronting up! But as you have said "what has happened" Entain has certainly happened Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murray Fish Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 3 hours ago, Special Agent said: Messara's excellent piece of work was an overall strategic plan and given as a suggestion ,and it was largely accepted by those at the coalface in NZ so obviously largely endorsed. 3 hours ago, Special Agent said: Is this a serious comment? sigh, Tab seem to love Mr Mess, I wonder what Messara thinks happened after he galloped out of town? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted August 3 Share Posted August 3 26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Did that include the Ellerslie $55m? I haven't met anyone yet that agreed with the plan. I don't think so because that was self-funded by the club, at least mostly. Didn't include the Cambridge AWT either as that was already funded and underway. Probably includes the NZTR contribution to the other 2 AWTs. As I read it, this was the budget for the NZTR track renovation spend from then. @TAB For Ever will know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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