what canterbury harness racing needs

[TAB For Ever]

In Canterbury , if this mega centre for training is essential to lead Harness into the future why couldnt an established property like Motukarara , Rangiora ,Ashburton or even Washdyke be considered ?

Ashburton now used more and more for Thoroughbred racing and trials but what about the others.

Back in the day there were many small trainers scattered from Washdyke,Tinwald , Rakaia, Hinds and every village in between.

[Westview]

15 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said:

In Canterbury , if this mega centre for training is essential to lead Harness into the future why couldnt an established property like Motukarara , Rangiora ,Ashburton or even Washdyke be considered ?

Ashburton now used more and more for Thoroughbred racing and trials but what about the others.

Back in the day there were many small trainers scattered from Washdyke,Tinwald , Rakaia, Hinds and every village in between.

Ashburton is already a training center, currently expanding. 

[Chief Stipe]

27 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said:

Back in the day there were many small trainers scattered from Washdyke,Tinwald , Rakaia, Hinds and every village in between.

Who all had access to a race track close if they required to do fast work.

In terms of more training centres what would be wrong with Motukarara or Rangiora?

[the galah]

38 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said:

In Canterbury , if this mega centre for training is essential to lead Harness into the future why couldnt an established property like Motukarara , Rangiora ,Ashburton or even Washdyke be considered ?

Ashburton now used more and more for Thoroughbred racing and trials but what about the others.

Back in the day there were many small trainers scattered from Washdyke,Tinwald , Rakaia, Hinds and every village in between.

Washdyke and motukarara tracks are on leased land.

Also motukarara not a good choice anyway given how cold and wet it is during the colder months.

ashburton and rangiora i thought are pretty much full up.Thats what they tell you if you ask.

personally i think no current racecourse is suitable.

It would need to be a new complex to promote harness racing and overseen by Hrnz.

why would hrnz invest in it unless they had total control of it.

also i don't know whether you are aware,but history has shown that there have been many disputes at dual coded racecourses,disputes also  at country racecourses where people on committees look after their own best interests,etc,etc. Some have got rather ugly. I can think of at least half a dozen racecourses where that has happened in the last 20 years.

current racecourses definitely a bad choice in my opinion.

Edited August 22 by the galah

[TAB For Ever]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Washdyke and motukarara tracks are on leased land.

Also motukarara not a good choice anyway given how cold and wet it is during the colder months.

ashburton and rangiora i thought are pretty much full up.Thats what they tell you if you ask.

personally i think no current racecourse is suitable.

It would need to be a new complex to promote harness racing and overseen by Hrnz.

why would hrnz invest in it unless they had total control of it.

also i don't know whether you are aware,but history has shown that there have been many disputes at dual coded racecourses,disputes also  at country racecourses where people on committees look after their own best interests,etc,etc. Some have got rather ugly. I can think of at least half a dozen racecourses where that has happened in the last 20 years.

current racecourses definitely a bad choice in my opinion.

Fair enough....Rangiora and Wahdyke seem to be losing their use by Thoroughbreds ,unless was Washdyke asked to resuscitate Jumps racing.

Leases can be longterm !

And I not aware that Motukarara too cold and wet.

Racing Administration has been growing in size and cost in recent times cos of extra Governance requirements ,H & S ,animal welfare and Integrity and WOF checks etc , I wouldn't like to see them any more bloated !

The ATC planned for their future to create a sustainable future via a sizable nest egg and we saw how that ended up ! It looked good on paper !

[Westview]

2 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said:

Fair enough....Rangiora and Wahdyke seem to be losing their use by Thoroughbreds ,unless was Washdyke asked to resuscitate Jumps racing.

Leases can be longterm !

And I not aware that Motukarara too cold and wet.

Racing Administration has been growing in size and cost in recent times cos of extra Governance requirements ,H & S ,animal welfare and Integrity and WOF checks etc , I wouldn't like to see them any more bloated !

The ATC planned for their future to create a sustainable future via a sizable nest egg and we saw how that ended up ! It looked good on paper !

Recently visited Rangiora on a Saturday and was surprised by the number of thoroughbreds that do use the track.

[the galah]

47 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said:

 

Racing Administration has been growing in size and cost in recent times cos of extra Governance requirements ,H & S ,animal welfare and Integrity and WOF checks etc , I wouldn't like to see them any more bloated !

 

all the frame already in place then.

With employees already with the right knowledge thats a plus not a negative.

i would imagine once set up it would only require oversight from those people and just a couple of employees for the likes of maintenance(including track)accounting. 

remember it would run to achieve a profit,not loss.

47 minutes ago, TAB For Ever said:

 

The ATC planned for their future to create a sustainable future via a sizable nest egg and we saw how that ended up ! It looked good on paper !

This is nothing whatsoever like building an apartment complex like auckland.

The only real similar things would be the auckland investment in their training complex-isn't it supposed to have been sold for $100 million,victorian harness racing who paid $3 million for land 20 years ago now valued at $100 million(isn't that the only asset they have which is saving them from insolvency),addington once had lots of land later sold off for good profits. Many racecing clubs the same.

Tab for ever,keep coming up with the reasons to support the project. 

Edited August 22 by the galah

[Brodie]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

Washdyke and motukarara tracks are on leased land.

Also motukarara not a good choice anyway given how cold and wet it is during the colder months.

ashburton and rangiora i thought are pretty much full up.Thats what they tell you if you ask.

personally i think no current racecourse is suitable.

It would need to be a new complex to promote harness racing and overseen by Hrnz.

why would hrnz invest in it unless they had total control of it.

also i don't know whether you are aware,but history has shown that there have been many disputes at dual coded racecourses,disputes also  at country racecourses where people on committees look after their own best interests,etc,etc. Some have got rather ugly. I can think of at least half a dozen racecourses where that has happened in the last 20 years.

current racecourses definitely a bad choice in my opinion.

Something has to be done as there us no way nowadays that young ones can purchase their own training property, handing down to family would be the only way!

The thing is that as we all know, there has to be new owners and trainers coming thru for the industry to continue.

You only need to watch Westview’s interviews to see that most of the winning owners are older, unless it is a syndicate.

As Galah has already stated there are next to no new trainers going out on their own, as so hard to attract paying owners.

[Gammalite]

3 hours ago, Brodie said:

Something has to be done as there us no way nowadays that young ones can purchase their own training property, handing down to family would be the only way!

The thing is that as we all know, there has to be new owners and trainers coming thru for the industry to continue.

You only need to watch Westview’s interviews to see that most of the winning owners are older, unless it is a syndicate.

As Galah has already stated there are next to no new trainers going out on their own, as so hard to attract paying owners.

good points . yes having a race-course that lease out boxes/barns to young trainers is the Best thing that can happen. Young kiwi lad Jack Trainor making a good go of it at Menangle , when wouldn't of had a chance otherwise. their lease payments help pay the track management that they use each day. 

The owner situation is hard. Boots has bought a lot of horses and placed them around many trainers since having 1/2 million from Betterzippit 's slot and Swayzee in NZ Cup. Maybe the young trainer needing a horse could ask Dean Shannon for one or 2 (who has a whole heap with Barry Purdon already. ) one young bloke here got a horse a 2 off/for Seymour (Leap To Fame millionaire owners) by asking. 

With Mark Purdon now near retired and Nathan not quite filling his boots , big Allstars owners in Woodham and Gibbs  would be likely targets ?? they already gave MAJOR HOT to young Canterbury Trainers David and Stacey White  in a grand gesture , and got a great result with them winning their First Group 1 last month , the Queensland Derby. 

Keep your fingers crossed Woodham/Gibbs leaves the horse with them for the NZ Derby in December  🙏🤞. This is the WAY to Get good young people going in the game . They deserve it .

FYI .   The horse that MAJOR HOT defeated in the Queensland Derby , an Emma Stewart runner named BAY OF BISCAY has made it into the $2,100,000 Eureka in 2 weeks time racing in Seymours slot. showing $9 win and $3 place. a red hot chance. 

[TAB For Ever]

6 hours ago, the galah said:

all the frame already in place then.

With employees already with the right knowledge thats a plus not a negative.

i would imagine once set up it would only require oversight from those people and just a couple of employees for the likes of maintenance(including track)accounting. 

remember it would run to achieve a profit,not loss.

This is nothing whatsoever like building an apartment complex like auckland.

The only real similar things would be the auckland investment in their training complex-isn't it supposed to have been sold for $100 million,victorian harness racing who paid $3 million for land 20 years ago now valued at $100 million(isn't that the only asset they have which is saving them from insolvency),addington once had lots of land later sold off for good profits. Many racecing clubs the same.

Tab for ever,keep coming up with the reasons to support the project. 

I will keep trying........still not clear on who is going to own all the extra horses  , and more horses will need to be bred too and be affordable !

Keep the thinking cap on !

 

[TAB For Ever]

2 hours ago, Gammalite said:

good points . yes having a race-course that lease out boxes/barns to young trainers is the Best thing that can happen. Young kiwi lad Jack Trainor making a good go of it at Menangle , when wouldn't of had a chance otherwise. their lease payments help pay the track management that they use each day. 

The owner situation is hard. Boots has bought a lot of horses and placed them around many trainers since having 1/2 million from Betterzippit 's slot and Swayzee in NZ Cup. Maybe the young trainer needing a horse could ask Dean Shannon for one or 2 (who has a whole heap with Barry Purdon already. ) one young bloke here got a horse a 2 off/for Seymour (Leap To Fame millionaire owners) by asking. 

With Mark Purdon now near retired and Nathan not quite filling his boots , big Allstars owners in Woodham and Gibbs  would be likely targets ?? they already gave MAJOR HOT to young Canterbury Trainers David and Stacey White  in a grand gesture , and got a great result with them winning their First Group 1 last month , the Queensland Derby. 

Keep your fingers crossed Woodham/Gibbs leaves the horse with them for the NZ Derby in December  🙏🤞. This is the WAY to Get good young people going in the game . They deserve it .

FYI .   The horse that MAJOR HOT defeated in the Queensland Derby , an Emma Stewart runner named BAY OF BISCAY has made it into the $2,100,000 Eureka in 2 weeks time racing in Seymours slot. showing $9 win and $3 place. a red hot chance. 

FYI Gamma ,  Phil and Glenys Kennard run those syndicates that you refer to , that feature GWoodham and JGibbs and the prominent breeders the Breckons usually involved too.

[the galah]

14 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

I will keep trying........still not clear on who is going to own all the extra horses  , and more horses will need to be bred too and be affordable !

Keep the thinking cap on !

 

I've said there is already a need right now with the current number of horses and that need will only grow.Its all about how unaffordable and scarce land and training facilities are currently. those 2 things are obviously related.

its also about the flow on effect to owners and breeders of having an affordable complex available. The people they use to educate and train their horses could pass on the savings to them ,or the owners and breeders could tap into using the affordable facility themselves.

thats why having an agistment part to any complex is important. For example they could charge a certain amount for agisting someones broodmare,with a % of that being a rebate that could be used for the cost of beeding. If not used,no rebate.Agistment costs should still be kept at affordable rates. The complex would be there to run at a small profit.

the thing is.

And isn't this obvious if you think about it.

say you currently own a broodmare. Your thinking well i don't think i will breed my mare this year. Maybe you can't find anywhere affordable to graze her,(that is a real problem),maybe its other circumstances,maybe youv'e looked to give her away but can't find anyone who wants her(another real issue),whatever.

so what do you think next...Well do i keep paying out or do i just put the broodmare down or try and sell her or maybe sell to china or whatever. The future of that mare is in real peril. chances of that mare not being around next year are not good. ive spoken to 3 people i know just in the last week whoare saying that and i've only spoken to 3 people in harness racing. This is a real problem.

anyway,ask yourself this.

would you get 1 more starter in this years nz if the race was worth $500,000 or a million$.  pretty sure no you wouldn't.

And I'm sure the aussie billionaire most likely to win the race needs it.

the point there is HRNZ leadership seems so out of touch with their spending priorities that people are losing all hope. The grass roots sees the spending on the top end and inevitably asks themselves,why do they bother anymore.Then they drift away.Once they are gone,they are gone.

Edited August 23 by the galah

[Brodie]

3 hours ago, the galah said:

I've said there is already a need right now with the current number of horses and that need will only grow.Its all about how unaffordable and scarce land and training facilities are currently. those 2 things are obviously related.

its also about the flow on effect to owners and breeders of having an affordable complex available. The people they use to educate and train their horses could pass on the savings to them ,or the owners and breeders could tap into using the affordable facility themselves.

thats why having an agistment part to any complex is important. For example they could charge a certain amount for agisting someones broodmare,with a % of that being a rebate that could be used for the cost of beeding. If not used,no rebate.Agistment costs should still be kept at affordable rates. The complex would be there to run at a small profit.

the thing is.

And isn't this obvious if you think about it.

say you currently own a broodmare. Your thinking well i don't think i will breed my mare this year. Maybe you can't find anywhere affordable to graze her,(that is a real problem),maybe its other circumstances,maybe youv'e looked to give her away but can't find anyone who wants her(another real issue),whatever.

so what do you think next...Well do i keep paying out or do i just put the broodmare down or try and sell her or maybe sell to china or whatever. The future of that mare is in real peril. chances of that mare not being around next year are not good. ive spoken to 3 people i know just in the last week whoare saying that and i've only spoken to 3 people in harness racing. This is a real problem.

anyway,ask yourself this.

would you get 1 more starter in this years nz if the race was worth $500,000 or a million$.  pretty sure no you wouldn't.

And I'm sure the aussie billionaire most likely to win the race needs it.

the point there is HRNZ leadership seems so out of touch with their spending priorities that people are losing all hope. The grass roots sees the spending on the top end and inevitably asks themselves,why do they bother anymore.Then they drift away.Once they are gone,they are gone.

Geez most people will think we are doom and gloomers in regards to the future of harness racing in NZ!

I believe just realists, the way things are definitely going, so things need changing.

We now know just how in the crap Harness Racing Victoria is financially insolvent!

HRNZ and Entain seriously need to look at their current performance and what they are doing to it!

There have been several really stupid decisions being made currently, they just dont seem to have anyone with business acumen?

[Slippery Slope]

19 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Geez most people will think we are doom and gloomers in regards to the future of harness racing in NZ!

I believe just realists, the way things are definitely going, so things need changing.

We now know just how in the crap Harness Racing Victoria is financially insolvent!

HRNZ and Entain seriously need to look at their current performance and what they are doing to it!

There have been several really stupid decisions being made currently, they just dont seem to have anyone with business acumen?

You are probably right! But if HRNZ are transparent and report regularly how much this exercise (especially Auckland / Cambridge) is costing the industry, especally compared to what we were already overspending before the change this month, then there is at least hope that they are up for a debate and change of course if proves to be financially as bad as we all think it is. Should be blindingly obvious even with the FNL results.

It's nobody's absolute "fault" that in a racing sense Alexandra Park is a poor betting product and Addington is one of the best, it's just history, economics and community interest all melded together. Why can't HRNZ just accept that most Australasian punters have already made their choice, and the young Auckland market are already betting and gaming elsewhere? No amount of heavily subsidised second rate racing is going to change that very much at all, in fact over time it may even be detrimental to harness racing's share of betting revenue overall. Only the numbers will tell us.