horse values

[Chief Stipe]

I don't think @the galah is being negative.  It's just an opinion.  I think we are too precious in NZ and robust opinions be they negative or positive should be embraced more.  That's where the OZZIE's are so much better than us.  

But on the topic of horse training and longevity I 

Bart Cummings said:

"Patience is the cheapest thing in racing but most people don't use it.

"I worked out early that you have to aim for the top and then work down. I've tried to eliminate the speculative side of racing by trying to choose Group One winners as yearlings. If they don't make the grade there are plenty of other races around."

"They think, they are honest, they are genuine, they are very intelligent and they do not forget. You get a few non-conformists occasionally but if you are good tempered and good natured, horses will respond in a similar manner."

[TAB For Ever]

Galah , I'll assist you with your query re LONGEVITY !

As I attended most Jewels I can remember at least 7 trotters in the green & white there.

Pinup boy The Fiery Ginga came 2nd and went on to win 28 races from 134 starts ,including Aussie trips.Cocktail Waiter ran 5th and went on to race 53 x times .

Twice AC had 2 x horses in the Jewels race .Dark Ops 2/48 returned later year with a different trainer and I saw one of her progeny race last night at the Park ! Often AC's horses beat home those from our top stables[Purdon &Dunn] and even beat home Sundees Son who raced 12 x times as a 2 yr old !

Other Jewels horses of AC's......Imperial Whiz 24 x wins from 243 starts ...WOW. He was sold after setting a record at 2....28 x starts !

Others...Solana 4 wins/ 63 starts , Castletonian 12 / 94 , Rhythmic Sun 12 /70 , .

Earlier horses.......Armed Guard 20 wins /199 starts. , Armed Raider 8 / 91 , Prince Harry 14 / 112, Regal Assassin 16 / 111

Night Watch [out of Dark Ops ]  6 /49 , Constar 7 / 29 , Mr Majestic 7 / 93 ,Sunnys Dream 1/48 , Heather Castleton 8 /52 

Wait there's more .......The Jinja Ninja 4 / 41  plus dam of Superstar Ninja 10 / 95

Sunscoming 4 / 35 , Christmas Babe 11 / 128 ,Latheronwheel 5 / 25

ok ,ok also Zoogin 0/29 , Crown Range 0/32 , Eye To Eye 1 /25 ,Speedy Success 1 / 53 

So the LONGEVITY question answered above !

[the galah]

2 hours ago, TAB For Ever said:

Galah , I'll assist you with your query re LONGEVITY !

As I attended most Jewels I can remember at least 7 trotters in the green & white there.

Pinup boy The Fiery Ginga came 2nd and went on to win 28 races from 134 starts ,including Aussie trips.Cocktail Waiter ran 5th and went on to race 53 x times .

Twice AC had 2 x horses in the Jewels race .Dark Ops 2/48 returned later year with a different trainer and I saw one of her progeny race last night at the Park ! Often AC's horses beat home those from our top stables[Purdon &Dunn] and even beat home Sundees Son who raced 12 x times as a 2 yr old !

Other Jewels horses of AC's......Imperial Whiz 24 x wins from 243 starts ...WOW. He was sold after setting a record at 2....28 x starts !

Others...Solana 4 wins/ 63 starts , Castletonian 12 / 94 , Rhythmic Sun 12 /70 , .

Earlier horses.......Armed Guard 20 wins /199 starts. , Armed Raider 8 / 91 , Prince Harry 14 / 112, Regal Assassin 16 / 111

Night Watch [out of Dark Ops ]  6 /49 , Constar 7 / 29 , Mr Majestic 7 / 93 ,Sunnys Dream 1/48 , Heather Castleton 8 /52 

Wait there's more .......The Jinja Ninja 4 / 41  plus dam of Superstar Ninja 10 / 95

Sunscoming 4 / 35 , Christmas Babe 11 / 128 ,Latheronwheel 5 / 25

ok ,ok also Zoogin 0/29 , Crown Range 0/32 , Eye To Eye 1 /25 ,Speedy Success 1 / 53 

So the LONGEVITY question answered above !

gee you know your alan clark horses.Nice work.

and yes you have pointed out some with real longevity.

i was aware of the likes of imperial whiz and armed guard.they have gone on to be very good money spinners. 

constar i know was a good young trotter and of its 7 wins 6 came as a 2 year old.

i'm aware he trained some of the others,although theres a couple you've mentioned that i've never heard of.

but i still believe in what i have said.

And i'm aware of quite a few that you probably have never heard of, that support my way of thinking.

my posts on this thread have been about horse values.

I've mentioned about 5 horses on this topic.

 i still think all the people who bid substanial amounts for imperial monarch,(and there were quite a few bidding on him),over valued him.

as i say, $21,000 for a horse who had 1 non tote and 1 raceday win out of 48 starts seems excessive.

Also ,have you not worked out that i'm the one not undervaluing mr clark as a trainer.

And i'm the one who thinks the people who think they can improve imperial monarch simply because mr clark no longer trains it,are misjudging things.

 

Edited Saturday at 09:03 AM by the galah

[the galah]

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

 

Also ,have you not worked out that i'm the one not undervaluing mr clark as a trainer.

And i'm the one who thinks the people who think they can improve imperial monarch simply because mr clark no longer trains it,are misjudging things.

 

reading that,I probably didn't word that part quite right.

I have been trying to put across my opinion that

There being 3 parts to my saying he was over valued at $21,000. firstly because i think the prospective buyers have overestimated  they can improve imperial monarch now hes no longer trained and driven by mr clark,secondly because of the longevity factor which i think is very important and thridly based on its race record.

I had thought i had inferred the a clark factor when i said earlier ,people underestimate mr clarks abilty in training young horses.

Thats what i have been trying to say anyway. 

Edited Saturday at 09:29 AM by the galah

[Brodie]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

reading that,I probably didn't word that part quite right.

I have been trying to put across my opinion that

There being 3 parts to my saying he was over valued at $21,000. firstly because i think the prospective buyers have overestimated  they can improve imperial monarch now hes no longer trained and driven by mr clark,secondly because of the longevity factor which i think is very important and thridly based on its race record.

I had thought i had inferred the a clark factor when i said earlier ,people underestimate mr clarks abilty in training young horses.

Thats what i have been trying to say anyway. 

Lol You have changed its name Galah!

TAB is clearly pretty close to Mr Clark or his specialty subject is “Race winners trained by Alan Clark”.

To be fair all things considered, Alan Clark did a very good job considering he didnt even have  a track of his own to work on.

He is clearly an enthusiast who loved the game by starting his horses so many times and regularly at the trials.

We all know how Mr Clark was going to drive and as a punter, we took our chances if we backed his horses.

The Fiery Ginga was one out of the box, just amazingly tough, and won so many races while being trained by basically an amateur trainer.

Alan Clark always ensured there is no loitering in any race that he drives in, and seemed like a nice fellah when he was interviewed.

As for Imperial Command being sold for $21K, providing the horse was still sound, then he may well be not too bad value seem he has gone to Oz, where he can be placed better than in NZ,

If he remained in NZ then yes he would struggle you would think if he was to continue to race in Canterbury!

He has plenty of speed  and the trot races are mostly sprints in Oz so he could well win plenty in Oz depending on the state he races in,

 

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 11:46 AM by Brodie

[the galah]

9 hours ago, Brodie said:

Lol You have changed its name Galah!

TAB is clearly pretty close to Mr Clark or his specialty subject is “Race winners trained by Alan Clark”.

To be fair all things considered, Alan Clark did a very good job considering he didnt even have  a track of his own to work on.

He is clearly an enthusiast who loved the game by starting his horses so many times and regularly at the trials.

We all know how Mr Clark was going to drive and as a punter, we took our chances if we backed his horses.

The Fiery Ginga was one out of the box, just amazingly tough, and won so many races while being trained by basically an amateur trainer.

Alan Clark always ensured there is no loitering in any race that he drives in, and seemed like a nice fellah when he was interviewed.

As for Imperial Command being sold for $21K, providing the horse was still sound, then he may well be not too bad value seem he has gone to Oz, where he can be placed better than in NZ,

If he remained in NZ then yes he would struggle you would think if he was to continue to race in Canterbury!

He has plenty of speed  and the trot races are mostly sprints in Oz so he could well win plenty in Oz depending on the state he races in,

 

 

 

 

Yes,i got my imperials mixed up in that last post of mine.

I had seen imperial monarch race earlier in the night when i posted that.

Imperial monarch interestingly had 5 starts,2 as a 2yo and 3 as a 3yo, in nz for c mcdowell.

is see within 12 months he has won 9 races from about 20 starts and is ruhnning in free for alls at melton.He ran against the likes of queen elida last night.Now he has proved to be a very good buy.

I'd be very surprised if alan clarks imperial command gets anywhere near that.

The thing is,if tabforever really thinks imperial command is worth $21,000,then how come the horse had only been able to win 1 race ,and 1 non tote(3 horse) penalty free 2yo race,from 48 starts. 

Mr clark i believe does things very different to most. Does he not have them in the cart as weanlings.His horses have always trotted nice so he knows how to shoe them,and he would have probably the best mannered yearlings in the cart you would see ,bar anyone,because of the work he has already done on them prior.

But theres more to just judging whether that is an overall successful strategy based just on the success of a couple of horses,which i agree he has trained.But there are others you will not have heard of. Now he won'r be alone in that,and i'm not knocking him,i'm just saying i don't have to agree with his strategy.

After all,had alan clark started training the fiery ginga when he was 4 instead of 1,then i'm sure he would have still been a top horse and highly likely raced longer.People forget that. But i suppose when you have 5 new yearlings every year to train then you need to find out quick if they can go otherwise next thing you have 25 horses in 5 years time.each to their own like i often say.

Edited Saturday at 09:27 PM by the galah

[TAB For Ever]

On 10/6/2024 at 10:26 AM, the galah said:

Yes,i got my imperials mixed up in that last post of mine.

I had seen imperial monarch race earlier in the night when i posted that.

Imperial monarch interestingly had 5 starts,2 as a 2yo and 3 as a 3yo, in nz for c mcdowell.

is see within 12 months he has won 9 races from about 20 starts and is ruhnning in free for alls at melton.He ran against the likes of queen elida last night.Now he has proved to be a very good buy.

I'd be very surprised if alan clarks imperial command gets anywhere near that.

The thing is,if tabforever really thinks imperial command is worth $21,000,then how come the horse had only been able to win 1 race ,and 1 non tote(3 horse) penalty free 2yo race,from 48 starts. 

Mr clark i believe does things very different to most. Does he not have them in the cart as weanlings.His horses have always trotted nice so he knows how to shoe them,and he would have probably the best mannered yearlings in the cart you would see ,bar anyone,because of the work he has already done on them prior.

But theres more to just judging whether that is an overall successful strategy based just on the success of a couple of horses,which i agree he has trained.But there are others you will not have heard of. Now he won'r be alone in that,and i'm not knocking him,i'm just saying i don't have to agree with his strategy.

After all,had alan clark started training the fiery ginga when he was 4 instead of 1,then i'm sure he would have still been a top horse and highly likely raced longer.People forget that. But i suppose when you have 5 new yearlings every year to train then you need to find out quick if they can go otherwise next thing you have 25 horses in 5 years time.each to their own like i often say.

Give it a rest Brodie......start knocking someone else .

If ,If If.....if your Auntie had balls she would be your Uncle.

AC...living the dream I reckon....it was mentioned earlier he didn't have a track ...WRONG ...he built his own house and his own track.Just down the road from another sporting legend Jeff Wilson !

[the galah]

 

1 hour ago, TAB For Ever said:

Give it a rest Brodie......start knocking someone else .

If ,If If.....if your Auntie had balls she would be your Uncle.

AC...living the dream I reckon....it was mentioned earlier he didn't have a track ...WRONG ...he built his own house and his own track.Just down the road from another sporting legend Jeff Wilson !

giving an opinion different to yours is not knocking someone,Its just having a different opinion.

and you seem to be picking parts of some replies from people and inferring negativity is the overall tone of those replies,when thats not the case if you apply context.

however,I did like when you compared me earlier,to a rooster who likes to hear himself crow when the sun shines.

The reason i most liked that you made that comment about me ,was because it confirmed how i thought you perceived me.I don't know,that sort of amused me that you showed that,and it was a colourful way of you putting it as well.

i can tell some of my replies agigtate you just a little.

some of my posts seem to do that to people sometimes.i have the same effect on the chief sometimes.

i think people who i aggitate with what i say, it gradually builds and then they just express what they think and let off a bit of steam when replying. I've seen the same pattern before on here. 

I have long before this thread,given thought to why i contribute to bit of a yarn,and wanting to hear my own voice is not significant,but would be a factor,but then again so is anyone who makes comments on any forum,including yourself.

i believe its a mixture of having a lot of spare time,boredom,being a bit isolated and finding this a forum with people of similar interests that i don't get elsewhere,wishing to express opinions that i believe should be given some thought.the main one would be the having a lot of spare time.

But tabforever,i would say you really don't know me if you think the rooster thing is what motivates my posting.But you may say,well i would say that,but i like to think if i say something its 100% what i'm thinking.

anyway,maybe if you were to meet me one day we could swap alan clark stories.Hes an interesting fella and does things differently. 

Edited 5 hours ago by the galah

[the galah]

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

 

giving an opinion different to yours is not knocking someone,Its just having a different opinion.

and you seem to be picking parts of some replies from people and inferring negativity is the overall tone of those replies,when thats not the case if you apply context.

however,I did like when you compared me earlier,to a rooster who likes to hear himself crow when the sun shines.

The reason i most liked that you made that comment about me ,was because it confirmed how i thought you perceived me.I don't know,that sort of amused me that you showed that,and it was a colourful way of you putting it as well.

i can tell some of my replies agigtate you just a little.

some of my posts seem to do that to people sometimes.i have the same effect on the chief sometimes.

i think people who i aggitate with what i say, it gradually builds and then they just express what they think and let off a bit of steam when replying. I've seen the same pattern before on here. 

I have long before this thread,given thought to why i contribute to bit of a yarn,and wanting to hear my own voice is not significant,but would be a factor,but then again so is anyone who makes comments on any forum,including yourself.

i believe its a mixture of having a lot of spare time,boredom,being a bit isolated and finding this a forum with people of similar interests that i don't get elsewhere,wishing to express opinions that i believe should be given some thought.the main one would be the having a lot of spare time.

But tabforever,i would say you really don't know me if you think the rooster thing is what motivates my posting.But you may say,well i would say that,but i like to think if i say something its 100% what i'm thinking.

anyway,maybe if you were to meet me one day we could swap alan clark stories.Hes an interesting fella and does things differently. 

And of course i should have said a significant reason i post is i like to hear what other people are thinking on the topics i post on. Everyones opinions are interesting given the subject matter is something i have a keen interest in.

i always think people are much more likely to say what they are thinking on a forum like this than they are to your face. too often people in real life will agree with someone when they don't in fact. I much prefer people expressing their real opinions.I'm someone who will always say what i think if asked so a forum like this with true opinions suits.

Edited 5 hours ago by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

I always thought The Firey Ginga was made to do too much too soon for too long.

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I always thought The Firey Ginga was made to do too much too soon for too long.

you could be right Chief , but sometimes the death seat can find you a good winner.  and you can grind the opposition down a bit.