Hmmm

[Pete Lane]

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/360500535/prominent-racehorse-owner-david-archer-furious-after-photo-finish-controversy

[Chief Stipe]

Prominent racehorse owner David Archer furious after photo-finish controversy

Barry Lichter

Nov 27, 2024 •05:00am

 

 

 

 

Play Video0:32

Tight finish confounds commentator, judge in Pukekohe race

Prominent racehorse owner David Archer is calling for a rule change after a photo-finish dispute at Pukekohe which put raceday judging under the microscope.

 

Archer and leading trainer Stephen Marsh were ropeable after their horse Sinhaman, who was called home first in a desperately close four-way finish on Saturday, was placed a nose second by the judge.

 

It took judge John Craig several minutes to post the result, one which photo-finish operator Sam Wells did not agree with. Wells was adamant he could not separate Sinhaman from declared winner Aladdin Sane.

 

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In a very close four-way finish, the judge found a nose margin for Aladdin Sane over Sinhaman in the blue and white colours at top.

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Commentator George Simon viewed the finish three times and also believed it was a dead-heat. Stipendiary stewards became involved after Marsh queried the result.

 

Archer, who watched the race from Australia, said his trainer was incensed over the result and, while he himself had not laid an official complaint with New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing, he had sent a note to the judge to say he believed he’d got it wrong.

 

Archer races Sinhaman with his partner Diane Wright and children Simon and Natalie, best known for their success with 10-time Group I winner Mufhasa.

 

And, while the decision proved costly in a $75,000 race - Sinhaman’s runner-up stake was worth only $13,875, compared with the $28,500 he would have won through a dead-heat, or $43,125 for a win - Archer is more concerned about the immediate future for the horse.

 

 

David Archer with his partner Diane Wright. Archer is calling for a rule change after a photo-finish dispute at Pukekohe

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“We’re going for the $1 million four-year-old race at Ellerslie in January and if he doesn’t get enough points, he won’t make the field.”

 

Archer said it would be a very bad look for the industry if there was a repeat of the episode in one of the multi-million dollar races coming up over summer.

 

“We should learn a lesson out of this and I believe there should be an absolute rule that the judge must call in one of the stewards for a second opinion when it’s that close.

 

“This wasn’t a nose, it was a hair, and I’m told three stipes looked at it and two of them said we won and one said it was a dead-heat.

 

“If it took the judge seven minutes to make a call, it should have been a dead-heat at worst.”

 

Racing Industry Board steward Adrian Dooley said it was not until 17 minutes after the race - after Marsh questioned the result - that he rang the judge to say he wanted to see the photo-finish.

 

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It was the final race, dividends were already being paid out, and Wells was halfway through packing up his gear when Dooley arrived.

 

“I couldn’t see a margin, neither could George and when Adrian Dooley had a look he couldn’t see a margin either,” Wells said.

 

Dooley would not confirm that on Tuesday, declining to comment because he believed it was under investigation. The stewards’ report noted only that under the Rules of Racing, “the decision of the judge was deemed final”.

 

Dooley said, however, that had he seen the photo-finish before the declaration of dividends, the judge’s decision may well have been different: “It would have been a different ball game altogether.”

 

The stewards often consulted with the judge over close photo-finishes, Dooley said, enabled by their close proximity at tracks like Te Rapa and Cambridge Raceway.

 

But at Pukekohe it was a long trek up from ground level to the top of the grandstand roof, with no lifts.

 

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Dooley said he did not see a blown-up photo-finish - “they’d shut down their machines” - but he viewed a smaller version.

 

Asked if the contested decision might see a revisiting of the rule giving the judge the final say, Dooley said “that might well come out in any inquiry.

 

“I haven’t come across one like this before.”

 

Dooley confirmed the stewards were delivered a printout of the judge’s placings, with the horses’ placings and their times, as stipulated in the rules.

 

But the times listed for the first two horses home on New Zealand Thoroughbred Racing’s website do not tally with photo finish operator Wells’ findings.

 

How could Aladdin Sane be credited with a time of 1:39.12 and Sinhaman 1:39.13, a difference of one 100th of a second, when Wells said he could not find a margin of one 1000th of a second between the pair?

 

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Wells said the gear he used could differentiate margins of up to one 10,000th of a second but in New Zealand the standard was to only go up to one 1000th of a second.

 

Wells said he was told by the judge to rule two separate lines on the official photo-finish when he could find no margin - something he was unhappy about. Neither of the two horses’ noses were touching the line on the left, he said.

 

“I had to find a margin when there was no margin but I have no legal say and can’t over-rule the judge, I just provide the photo finish.”

 

Under the rules, the judge’s decision cannot be appealed but chief stipendiary steward John Oatham said he would be reviewing the film with Craig at Ellerslie on Saturday.

 

“John is a very experienced judge and I assume he explained to the judicial chairman Brady Jones how he came to his decision.”

 

Oatham said it was easy for people to question the judge’s decision but he had a number of tools at his disposal on the computer screen, including contrast, and a second, inside camera to help him.

 

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But Archer said he understood the photo-finish camera had been playing up during the day, even more reason why the judge should have sought a second opinion.

 

Wells confirmed the second camera on the inside of the track was playing up and wasn’t lined up for the day because one of its support legs was bent. The main camera, beside him in the grandstand, was accurate.

 

“Some of the stewards’ viewing positions leave a lot to be desired but, depending on our location, we view the film where possible,” Oatham said.

 

“But we don’t make decisions - that’s the judge’s job.”

 

Craig said he didn’t want to get involved in debating the issue but, with about 40 years experience in judging, he was confident in his decision.

 

“It’s harder to see it on the website photo but there was a nose margin.”

 

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On Archer’s call for mandatory input from a steward in close finishes, Craig said that already happened on most northern tracks at which he officiated.

 

“At Ellerslie we’re in the same box and at Te Rapa there’s only a wall between us and the stewards normally come and have a look before I make my call.”

 

- Stuff

[Huey]

Certainly looks a Deadheat

[Murray Fish]

49 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Wells confirmed the second camera on the inside of the track was playing up and wasn’t lined up for the day because one of its support legs was bent.

sigh

[curious]

20 minutes ago, Murray Fish said:

sigh

John Craig has a lot to answer for here it seems to me. It is surely his responsibility to ensure that the photo finish equipment is fully functional for the race day and in the event of a malfunction where the result is not clear, the default call should be a dead heat? Then he says, "he didn’t want to get involved in debating the issue". That's transparent.

[Thomass]

6 hours ago, Pete Lane said:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/360500535/prominent-racehorse-owner-david-archer-furious-after-photo-finish-controversy

Ridiculous header

you managed 7 words on your fellow moron's site...what gives?

 #dobetter

[Pete Lane]

10 minutes ago, Thomass said:

Ridiculous header

you managed 7 words on your fellow moron's site...what gives?

 #dobetter

I kept it simple because of your single digit IQ and illiteracy.

The king of ridiculous threads comments on this - oh the irony.

#simpleton

Edited November 26, 2024 by Pete Lane

[Thomass]

As per the Sweet pea thread I'm talking through my empty pocket having had a decent 'investment' on the ROBBED Marsh neddy

Craig is olde school..a few years back I asked George Simon wtf doesn't he get the heads up from Craig as soon as he reads the finishlynx instead of waiting for the official call

he said " Craig prefers to keep the tension going before announcing the result"  ffs

'The Judge' is one of THE most important jobs encompassing the INTEGRITY function

For Clubs to employ them is nonsense

Then Oatham to say "it's not my/our job it's the Judge's" is as stupid as as stupid does

Craig needs to do the decent thing...fall on his sword..thanks for coming and your years of service but don't come back Monday

Imagine the tension in the Judge's box now with the timer and Judge sending each other to Coventry?  it's untenable for Craig to remain

Whoever fiddled the 'official' time as submitted to NZTR also needs the DCM..was it fiddled at NZTR or did Craig submit the lie?

A transparent report after Oatham's meeting with Craig on Saturday is the least the Industry requires

Then the resignation 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2024 by Thomass

[Pete Lane]

3 minutes ago, Thomass said:

As per the Sweet pea thread I'm talking through my empty pocket having had a decent 'investment' on the ROBBED Marsh neddy

Craig is olde school..a few years back I asked George Simon wtf doesn't he get the heads up from Craig as soon as he reads the finishlynx instead of waiting for the official call

he said " Craig prefers to keep the tension going before announcing the result"  ffs

'The Judge' is one of THE most important jobs encompassing the INTEGRITY function

For Oatham to say "it's not my/our job it's the Judge's" is as stupid as as stupid does

Craig needs to do the decent thing...fall on his sword..thanks for coming and your years of service but don't come back Monday

Imagine the tension in the Judge's box now with the timer and Judge sending each other to Coventry?  it's untenable for Craig to remain

Whoever fiddled the 'official' time as submitted to NZTR also needs the DCM..was it fiddled at NZTR or did Craig submit the lie?

A transparent report after Oatham's meeting with Craig on Saturday is the least the Industry requires

Then the resignation 

 

 

I'm sure George was absolutely thrilled to be interrogated by you - did it occur to you that he might have been taking the piss in his reply?

No, I thought not.

#toostupidtogetthejoke

[Chief Stipe]

55 minutes ago, Pete Lane said:

I'm sure George was absolutely thrilled to be interrogated by you - did it occur to you that he might have been taking the piss in his reply?

No, I thought not.

#toostupidtogetthejoke

@Thomass fantasises about who he talks to.  So I doubt George gave him the time of day.  

[billy connolly]

6 hours ago, curious said:

John Craig has a lot to answer for here it seems to me. It is surely his responsibility to ensure that the photo finish equipment is fully functional for the race day and in the event of a malfunction where the result is not clear, the default call should be a dead heat? Then he says, "he didn’t want to get involved in debating the issue". That's transparent.

John Craig's integrity is beyond reproach. A former West Coaster, he's been in the game for 55 years and was the assistant judge to his predecessor.

Get back into bed with that woman trainer from Riccarton.

[curious]

1 minute ago, billy connolly said:

John Craig's integrity is beyond reproach. A former West Coaster, he's been in the game for 55 years and was the assistant judge to his predecessor.

Get back into bed with that woman trainer from Riccarton.

Perhaps you should go back to school and learn to read before you comment. I neither questioned his integrity nor his experience.

[Chief Stipe]

36 minutes ago, billy connolly said:

John Craig's integrity is beyond reproach. A former West Coaster, he's been in the game for 55 years and was the assistant judge to his predecessor.

Get back into bed with that woman trainer from Riccarton.

Enough of that BS thanks.

[Murray Fish]

59 minutes ago, billy connolly said:

John Craig's integrity is beyond reproach

coming from a Cretan like you I'm not to sure if your comment counts for much!

 

ps, send me your name in private mail! I be keen to meet you in person one day!  but then I bet odds on, you be way to gutless for something like that to happen! eh!

[Bill]

4 hours ago, billy connolly said:

John Craig's integrity is beyond reproach. A former West Coaster, he's been in the game for 55 years and was the assistant judge to his predecessor.

Get back into bed with that woman trainer from Riccarton.

John is a bitter old Avondale hack

[Thomass]

19 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

@Thomass fantasises about who he talks to.  So I doubt George gave him the time of day.  

The meeting after, the process changed

If you keep your taringa's open for a change you'll hear George say

"I'm getting the heads up"

I believe in proactivity

When Ross Neil become head (before he lost his head) I suggested punters should know when mares have been served and subsequently up the duff

He agreed and we now have notifications

Ironically Trackside's crew often suggesting "mares 'in foal' usually perform better"

Which is simply not true.  The Brits showed 'in foal' before and after resulted in a performance drop

IMHO The smaller % of mares that do improve, do so significantly.

As well known doyen the late Professor Twink Allen said "pregnant mares should be banned from racing really, all of those hormones racing through them!!" 

[Chief Stipe]

22 minutes ago, Thomass said:

Ironically Trackside's crew often suggesting "mares 'in foal' usually perform better"

Which is simply not true.  The Brits showed 'in foal' before and after resulted in a performance drop

IMHO The smaller % of mares that do improve, do so significantly.

As well known doyen the late Professor Twink Allen said "pregnant mares should be banned from racing really, all of those hormones racing through them!!"

Statistically overall there is no difference therefore as a predictor of performance it is pointless taking into consideration if a mare is in foal.  However because of the widely held myth that it does improve performance you are likely to find value elsewhere.

Which begs the question if you knew it didn't make any difference why did you insist that the information be provided?  To improve YOUR odds?

[Thomass]

18 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Statistically overall there is no difference therefore as a predictor of performance it is pointless taking into consideration if a mare is in foal.  However because of the widely held myth that it does improve performance you are likely to find value elsewhere.

Which begs the question if you knew it didn't make any difference why did you insist that the information be provided?  To improve YOUR odds?

What on earth are you talking about?

What stat where and by who?

I can produce the actual research that shows a DECREASE if you insist on being keel hauled?

Simply, punters deserve to know about ANYTHING that improves, decreases chances 

In season for example

The rule is "notify stewards of ANYTHING that could affect performance"

Not toe clips though

Remember Larney getting in trouble for not reporting a skin rash for his horse racing in the Livermol?

Anyway this is about John Craig and his former team mate, the time keeper, and their spat

And the INTEGRITY around Craig insisting the time keeper draw a line down his pik

Then whoever altered the actual time to the 'official' wrong time

Don't worry, Oatham will be all over this at HQ on Saturday and the new kid on the block, CEO Dr. Eliot Forbes will be reproducing his report on the RIB website cum Monday

#yeamaybena