Kevin Stott's brutal fine in Telegraph

[Chief Stipe]

23 minutes ago, curious said:

Did he breach the current whip rules?

Why does it matter?  The principle is the same regardless.  What rule date are you working by?

[curious]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why does it matter?  The principle is the same regardless.  What rule date are you working by?

The current rules are the strictest we've had here, if still largely ineffective.

[Chief Stipe]

12 hours ago, Wingman said:

Why did you lock then unlock?

To give @Thomass 's milk enough time to get hot enough to add to his Horlicks given it was his bed time.

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, curious said:

The current rules are the strictest we've had here, if still largely ineffective.

From what date?

Regardless rules are rules aren't they?

[Wingman]

Just to add to what I posted earlier I am fairly sure Kelly Myers lost her whip well before the 200m on Titicaca in the Remutaka AND STILL WON.

[curious]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

From what date?

Regardless rules are rules aren't they?

1 September 2021 for the rules. Penalties were updated last year though.

Yes. Rules are rules, if breaches are enforced. I don't recall CWJ having any major issues with the rules prior to that in recent years. Did he, as you inferred? I can 't recall him ever taking his hands off the reins on one of mine though it's hard to tell with a left-hander without looking at the head on.

[curious]

3 hours ago, Wingman said:

Just to add to what I posted earlier I am fairly sure Kelly Myers lost her whip well before the 200m on Titicaca in the Remutaka AND STILL WON.

Correct. TITICACA (K Myers) - Rider dropped her whip near the 350 metres.

[curious]

4 hours ago, Wingman said:

Why did you lock then unlock? Answer because it is like an atheist and a Christian going head to head in a debate. Neither of you are going to win and but at some point you both reluctantly agree on some vague point then start the same shit fight on a different piece of ground. The whips are softer, the rules tougher than they used to be so right there is a concession to the anti whip people but to say there shall be no whip when dealing with animals combined with the competitive element is nonsense. The real issue is the weak administrator's who come up with half baked rules and then quarter enforce. The reality is that most horses that are in contention are obviously so,  once into the straight. Why do you need to whip them in the last 200m when they are trying? My opinion is that if a jockey wants the horse to try harder or press 'accelerate' (if they indeed can ) then the time for that is between the 400m and 200m. After that no whip. That also means a lot less bad press because there are no 'whips a crackin' the last 200m.

I agree. Assuming the no strikes on the flank rule comes in in due course, it is only the last 200 that remains a significant problem.

The jumps racing review identified a similar issue. "Even those who supported the continuation of jumps identified a concern about use of the whip during the races, especially at the end of the races after the last jump."  So, I don't think that it's just Thomas and I that notice as has been suggested here.

[Chief Stipe]

7 hours ago, curious said:

The jumps racing review identified a similar issue. "Even those who supported the continuation of jumps identified a concern about use of the whip during the races, especially at the end of the races after the last jump."  So, I don't think that it's just Thomas and I that notice as has been suggested here.

@curious you disappoint me.  There is a difference when a horse that has just gone nearly 4,000m over numerous jumps on a heavy track and barely makes it over the last jump is whipped to maintain its stakes or dividend bearing place when it is stuffed compared to one in a winning position with 200m to run and has started to loaf around like a goon.

The fact you confound your argument so often convinces me you are struggling to gain support for it WITHIN racing.

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, curious said:

1 September 2021 for the rules. Penalties were updated last year though.

Yes. Rules are rules, if breaches are enforced. I don't recall CWJ having any major issues with the rules prior to that in recent years. Did he, as you inferred? I can 't recall him ever taking his hands off the reins on one of mine though it's hard to tell with a left-hander without looking at the head on.

Why differentiate now between minor and major when the basis of you main argument is to ban the whip altogether.

Hypocriscy abounds!!  

I counted 6 violations of the whip rules (which @Thomass would describe as blatant cheating) since 1 September 2021!!!!

 

[Chief Stipe]

11 hours ago, Wingman said:

Just to add to what I posted earlier I am fairly sure Kelly Myers lost her whip well before the 200m on Titicaca in the Remutaka AND STILL WON.

But if Titicaca had been beaten a nose as an owner would you have been impressed?

[curious]

57 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I counted 6 violations of the whip rules (which @Thomass would describe as blatant cheating) since 1 September 2021!!!!

OK. Was he ever suspended under the whip rules?

[curious]

5 minutes ago, curious said:

OK. Was he ever suspended under the whip rules?

Oh. I just looked. He was and once when winning on my horse!

[Thomass]

12 hours ago, Wingman said:

Why did you lock then unlock? Answer because it is like an atheist and a Christian going head to head in a debate. Neither of you are going to win and but at some point you both reluctantly agree on some vague point then start the same shit fight on a different piece of ground. The whips are softer, the rules tougher than they used to be so right there is a concession to the anti whip people but to say there shall be no whip when dealing with animals combined with the competitive element is nonsense. The real issue is the weak administrator's who come up with half baked rules and then quarter enforce. The reality is that most horses that are in contention are obviously so,  once into the straight. Why do you need to whip them in the last 200m when they are trying? My opinion is that if a jockey wants the horse to try harder or press 'accelerate' (if they indeed can ) then the time for that is between the 400m and 200m. After that no whip. That also means a lot less bad press because there are no 'whips a crackin' the last 200m.

You raise some excellent points...very hard to read with no para's though!

Trumpy, Elon & Zacky would be aghast at the locking down of threads here to be fear

As for the 'soft' whips' did you read the peer reviewed research by a vet from Sydney Uni that we posted?

In the majority of whip strikes the non padded polymer section made contact, often on the highly sensitive flank

Why noy pad the whip from handle to tip then?

Because trainers/owners/jockeys still feel the need to keep that pain punishment available to them that's why

I'm betting Shaun told Stotty 'he's a lazy horse"

nek minute Stotty's corkscrewing out of the saddle to produce as much pain as he can muster 

flank, ass, flank with illegal over the shoulder punishment

Shaun needs to make a choice

Does he want the whip banned as he said...or does he want to keep winning at all costs and keep Russ Warwick's owner Hardly Normal happy?

 

[Chief Stipe]

13 minutes ago, curious said:

Oh. I just looked. He was and once when winning on my horse!

Hand your stake back as a matter of principle.

[Chief Stipe]

13 minutes ago, Thomass said:

Trumpy, Elon & Zacky would be aghast at the locking down of threads here to be fear

 

You are quite welcome to post your wacky obsessions on other social media however I see you have given up using X.  Lack of customer interaction perchance?

[Thomass]

52 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

You are quite welcome to post your wacky obsessions on other social media however I see you have given up using X.  Lack of customer interaction perchance?

If you call British Racing Authority & Gallop France "wacky" then I'm in esteemed company

DQ's are very fair, especially when Black Type catalogue integrity is severely compromised

Ask the breeders of LICKETYSPLIT and how they got away with G 1 blue murder

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, Thomass said:

If you call British Racing Authority & Gallop France "wacky" then I'm in esteemed company

 

I don't think they are as obssessed as you are nor go off piss-te!  That said British racing is really going well...not!

At the very least they have a better command of the English language!

 

[Gammalite]

I suppose it's only for a short distance in a race that a whip is actually used.

So perhaps the modification could be made to gallop without it ?  🤔.  When you see old cowboy and Indian and cavalry movies the horses are trained to charge in full flight with urgings of the rider , and they (the magnificent horses) seem to enjoy stretching right out at a full gallop like they would in the wild if they were mustangs or brumbies , and not a whip in sight.   

Some interesting thoughts on training are common. You don't see too many under the whip in training gallops or even barrier trials for that matter. And working dogs (albeit , they are slightly more intelligent animal)  are all trained without ever coming under a whipping or beating,( unless some snow sled drongo in Greenland gets a bit excited with his huskies) 

 

Horses that are struck hard with the whip are likely to experience pain and fear.

Even if there is no contact, a horse’s previous experience may mean that simply waving the whip is enough to induce fear. Intentionally causing pain and fear in animals can never be ethically acceptable. A fearful horse is also likely to be more reactive, and this may reduce both horse and rider safety.

2) Does the horse understand?

It’s vital that the rider/handler understands how horses learn, knows the difference between negative reinforcement (removing pressure when a horse does what is being asked) and positive punishment (punishing a horse for an unwanted behaviour – a strategy that is often unhelpful and always ethically questionable), and understands the crucial importance of correct timing.

Operant conditioning is widely used in the successful training of many species, including dogs and zoo animals. Training of horses is typically based on negative reinforcement and, increasingly, positive reinforcement. Negative punishment is less common. Positive punishment is ethically questionable and often unhelpful.

For use of the whip to be acceptable (either with or without prior use of the leg), the horse must have been taught how they should respond to the rider’s cues (aids). The rider/trainer should also understand that horses do not think like humans and are not capable of making complex connections between events. For instance, some people feel that it is acceptable to punish a horse because ‘he knows what I want him to do – he’s just being stubborn’. This attitude shows that the handler is overestimating the horse’s intellectual abilities – such ‘punishment’ is abuse.

If the horse does not understand why the whip is being used then, for them, being whipped is just some random (and often unpleasant) act on the part of their handler or rider. This is unlikely to build the trusting relationship that we should all be striving to establish with our horses.

[Chief Stipe]

28 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

So perhaps the modification could be made to gallop without it ?  🤔.  When you see old cowboy and Indian and cavalry movies the horses are trained to charge in full flight with urgings of the rider , and they (the magnificent horses) seem to enjoy stretching right out at a full gallop like they would in the wild if they were mustangs or brumbies , and not a whip in sight.

Are you serious @Gammalite - not forgetting the irony of your avatar being named after Gammalite!

Horses in old style cowboy moview are generally older horses over 5 years of age.  The rider has lot longer stirrups and wears spurs - hence the ability to give a good belt into the belly with the heal.  They ride westen style with one hand and often longer tails on the reins which are used in a whipping fashion.  Not to mention the rolled up lassoo which can pack a rear handed punch.  In the movies anyway.