race 5 methven/victorian stipes.

[the galah]

Perhaps people who have labelled david moran as obviously guilty,should watch the start of todays race and ask themseves this question.

How many of the field do you think the victorian stipes would have disqualified and how many drivers would they be trying to put out for foul driving.?

You had 7 drivers driving with a foot out of the foot rest for a start,after 50m about 4 still doing so,then after 100m still about 2,then one driver went like that even longer.

Noticeably,none seemed to position there foot like david moran did. Anyone comparing todays video to morans,would have to say moran at least was trying to avoid his horses foot after 2 strides,unlike the drivers today.

Noticeably the driver of the first 3 after 100m,were 3 of the 4 to leave their foot down the longest.

did they do that to gain an advantge at the start,well i would say obviously not,but if this was victoria well they surely would be in trouble, as gaining a perceived  adavntage at the start is just as bad as gaining a perceived advantage at the finish,is it not.

Now,personally,i think its  obvious from todays race that drivers,do accidentally drop a foot without any intention of gaining an advantage.

Perhaps someone should put up the video to show what i mean.

David moran should just show that video at his appeal. Case dismissed .

Edited 21 hours ago by the galah

[the galah]

Actually just read the stipes report for race 5.

Not mentioned at all.

One driver had his foot down for over 300m.

I see no problem with the stipes not noting it happened given the numbers that did it.

it just makes me have a wee chuckle when thinking about the recent victorian controversy.

Edited 21 hours ago by the galah

[Gammalite]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

David moran should just show that video at his appeal. Case dismissed .

Bit of difference to the start of a race as opposed to the finish of a race old mate.  case upheld . none of this NZ get everyone off light stuff all the time 😋🤣  (except for poor McGrath)

He (Moran) was DQed for gaining advantage by coming into contact with the horses legs while driving it out at the 200m near the end of the race. case proven and penalized . 

Did any of your blokes today make any contact with the horses hind legs ????  

Happy Australia Day to you as well . a great day today 🎉🍻🍟 lol ( kiwi's looked good at Melton last night, need a bit of Mark Purdon with DSD added next week to give Leap To Fame a fright next week in the BIG Hunter Cup . (like he did last year) gunna be a good one 🏆.

and as Chief Brody says in Jaws . "gunna need a bigger boat" 😂 

[Taku Umanga]

It's all about balance in the early stages of a standing start trot.  Different story at the end of a race.  Nothing to see here in my opinion.

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Taku Umanga said:

It's all about balance in the early stages of a standing start trot.  Different story at the end of a race.  Nothing to see here in my opinion.

And i agree with that.

i assume when they turn in that they have a leg dropped for the balance thing,as they are slightly on an angle when turning,but the rules say drivers should have their feet in the footrest the whole race.

Thats my point,the nz stipes have just shown common sense application of the rule.

Its so obvious from that methven video that drivers can regularly drop their feet out of the footrest,with no intention of gaining an advantage.

I have never said moran should not have been fined.

I have said the level of evidence to say moran dropped his leg deliberately or to gain an advantage,wan't enough to justify the victorian stipes actions.

In my opinion, its obvious,that if you are to argue a driver can gain an advantage by dropping his foot and making contact to encourage a horse to run faster at the finish,then you can't argue that the same thing can't happen at the start when you do exactly the same thing.

In the moran case ,he dropped his foot for 9 strides,with the stipes noting only 2 strides was his foot near his horses feet.

At methven j morrison and b hope dropped their feet for 9 strides,but their feet were in a position near their horses feet for all 9 strides.(clearly 7 strides longer than moran)

John dunn,18 strides.jim curtin 7 strides,ian cameron 3 strides,wilson house still had his foot out of a foot rest after 300m.

I think,if moran does get found guilty,then he will obviously appeal, then if he  shows that methven video and shows that methven stipes report,then the odds of him getting off will be shorter than leap to fame went around in that race at melton on saturday where he only paid $1 to win and place. And of course,theres the queensland driver who got off 3 months ago, when he may have put his foot down deliberately,making contact with his horses hocks to get up and win by a nose.

 

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, the galah said:

i assume when they turn in that they have a leg dropped for the balance thing,as they are slightly on an angle when turning,but the rules say drivers should have their feet in the footrest the whole race.

Thats my point,the nz stipes have just shown common sense application of the rule.

Its so obvious from that methven video that drivers can regularly drop their feet out of the footrest,with no intention of gaining an advantage.

I have never said moran should not have been fined.

I have said the level of evidence to say moran dropped his leg deliberately or to gain an advantage,wan't enough to justify the victorian stipes actions.

 

How many of those that dropped their foot hit the hocks of their horse?  A bit stupid to do that with a trotter!

Moran hit his horse with his foot at least once in the run to post. 

[Chief Stipe]

8 minutes ago, the galah said:

I think,if moran does get found guilty,then he will obviously appeal, then if he  shows that methven video and shows that methven stipes report,then the odds of him getting off will be shorter than leap to fame went around in that race at melton on saturday where he only paid $1 to win and place. And of course,theres the queensland driver who got off 3 months ago, when he may have put his foot down deliberately,making contact with his horses hocks to get up and win by a nose.

 

Do you seroiusly think video footage from NZ would hold any weight in Australia?

Moran was guilty and the penalty was per that jurisdictions rules.  Let it go.  End of story.

[Gammalite]

7 minutes ago, the galah said:

I think,if moran does get found guilty,then he will obviously appeal, then if he  shows that methven video and shows that methven stipes report,then the odds of him getting off will be shorter

Odds are very long I would think on getting him off.  especially with your evidence lol. 

I like to think of harness racing in Australasia as one country myself, but the reality is the States run like 7 different countries, completely Oblivious to each other in Many Ways.

There is NO CHANCE what happens in NZ would even be remotely considered in a Moran appeal in Victoria . you're dreaming . (his leg was down and in possible contact for 9 strides as well . between the 200 and 100 out . He shouldn't get off , as he broke the rules. Penalty harsh. But You can be as Sure as certain is , that Not any one else will be doing that now . unless they're a real dumbass 🤣.

[the galah]

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Do you seroiusly think video footage from NZ would hold any weight in Australia?

Moran was guilty and the penalty was per that jurisdictions rules.  Let it go.  End of story.

Of course if they operate under the same rules.

Why do you think new zealand has changed several rules to fall in line with the australian rules.

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, the galah said:

Of course if they operate under the same rules.

Why do you think new zealand has changed several rules to fall in line with the australian rules.

FFS @the galah I said do you seriously think NZ footage would be relevant in a different jurisdiction?  Are you on Moran's defence team?  Has he appealed? 

[the galah]

8 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Odds are very long I would think on getting him off.  especially with your evidence lol. 

I like to think of harness racing in Australasia as one country myself, but the reality is the States run like 7 different countries, completely Oblivious to each other in Many Ways.

There is NO CHANCE what happens in NZ would even be remotely considered in a Moran appeal in Victoria . you're dreaming . (his leg was down and in possible contact for 9 strides as well . between the 200 and 100 out . He shouldn't get off , as he broke the rules. Penalty harsh. But You can be as Sure as certain is , that Not any one else will be doing that now . unless they're a real dumbass 🤣.

Like i keep saying,just put up the video of that queensland race ,where the driver got off on appeal,3months ago.

I don't know how to,but the proof is there of a precedent .

of course what happens in nz is relevant to australia and what happens in australia is relevant to nz.

Just look at the rule changes nz has made.And the rule in nz will be the same as australias rule for the matter being discussed.

Just common sense i think.

 

Edited 7 hours ago by the galah

[the galah]

6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

FFS @the galah I said do you seriously think NZ footage would be relevant in a different jurisdiction?  Are you on Moran's defence team?  Has he appealed? 

your a funny man chief.

So,if you have the same rule in nz and australia,and one country enforces it differently than the other,then you can't ask questions why,given both countries have the same punters.

Consistency is the whole point. Look at the remits and reasons given for some recent hrnz rule changes..

 

Edited 6 hours ago by the galah

[Gammalite]

1 minute ago, the galah said:

of course what happens in nz is relevant to australia and what happens in australia is relevant to nz.

Just look at the rule changes nz has made.And the rule in nz will be the same as australias rule for the matter being discussed.

Just common sense i think.

Depends on your interpretation of the word 'Relevant' . 

Harness rules and for example road rules are'  similar ' , but in no way are penalties applied (or appeals heard) or cases assessed , because of what happened in another State (or definitely not country)??  Texting drivers penalties in cars are applied everywhere, speeding fines etc, BUT are controlled By the GOVERNING Body of that state (or country) . Just like Harness.   just like USA states too. 

Stewards in Victoria applying a penalty couldn't care less what happened in NZ or QLD. they're employed to enforce the rules in their own state. maybe you're a lawyer in another life ? trying to get people off based on other cases all the time. clogging up the courts lol 🤣.

[the galah]

10 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

 

Stewards in Victoria applying a penalty couldn't care less what happened in NZ or QLD. they're employed to enforce the rules in their own state. maybe you're a lawyer in another life ? trying to get people off based on other cases all the time. clogging up the courts lol 🤣.

So your saying victoria and queensland operate under the exact same HRA rules,but that its ok for both states to have a different interpretation of the same rule. 

Actually ,gamma,pretty sure thats not how it works.

Besides,in my specific example of the same rule in queensland and victoria,it was interpreted exactly the same by both authorities(as it should be),but both authorities came to different conclusions as to the penalty on the night.

I'm also pretty sure gamma,that when an appeals heard,the judges uses the exact same rules,as after all they are the same,whatever the state,then they make a decsion and that decision sets a precedent which all future cases can use to as a reference to an example of being a fair and just outcome. 

Edited 6 hours ago by the galah

[Gammalite]

19 minutes ago, the galah said:

I'm also pretty sure gamma,that when an appeals heard,the judges uses the exact same rules,as after all they are the same,whatever the state,then they make a decsion and that decision sets a precedent which all future cases can use to as a reference to an example of being a fair and just outcome.

So you're saying I should appeal if I'm driving at 120 kph towards NSW and get a $500 speeding fine this side of the border , and then in NSW I get a $1000 fine as well a few kms down the highway ? , while on exactly the same road and driving at exactly the same speed. (albeit too fast) ?  

The penalties should be the Same as is ''Relevant in lawyer Galah eyes?  , as the rules are the same (similar) . But the penalty is different so that is great evidence for an appeal case ? 

It's a different state mate.  as is Moran . he's in Vic .What happened in QLD or NZ no good to him .  he couldn't possibly win an appeal on that evidence.  he'd need to convince them he didn't make contact with the horses legs . can't undo that.  can't go whimpering about some other bloke got off, why shouldn't I .

actually he didn't get disqualified anyway. The Horse did. do you think he still got a unplaced driver Fee ?? or should he appeal that too 😉

[Harrison]

You also get fined in NZ if you drop your foot during the running, unless it was clear you got unbalanced due to an incident & you would definitely get in trouble if you had done it so as to make a connection with the horses back leg. Having your leg down at the beginning of a stand is how all drivers get taught to get their horse away, for the sake of maintaining balance, especially with a young trotter. I believe so long as you have your leg up before the bend there is no concern with that & that is the way it has been done for years.

[the galah]

46 minutes ago, Harrison said:

You also get fined in NZ if you drop your foot during the running, unless it was clear you got unbalanced due to an incident & you would definitely get in trouble if you had done it so as to make a connection with the horses back leg. Having your leg down at the beginning of a stand is how all drivers get taught to get their horse away, for the sake of maintaining balance, especially with a young trotter. I believe so long as you have your leg up before the bend there is no concern with that & that is the way it has been done for years.

That having your leg down at the start is how drivers are taught.

ive never heard of that. Not saying its not true,just obviously only a handful of drivers do it that way. if it made sense,then why do 90% of drivers never need to drop a leg to maintain balance..

As to being allowed to have it down until the first bend,then how come i've read many times of drivers being spoken to about the length of time they had it down early in a race.

So i don't agree that has been acceptable for years.

Actually now you are saying its acceptable,i'm beginning to think whats to stop any nz driver taking advantage of that and thereby gaining an unfair advantage.

Thats seems very,very dodgy to me,because,lets face it,everyones arguing a foot down can make a horse run faster if contact is made,so why on earth would the stipes allow some drivers to get such an unfair advantage in the first 200m of a race like yesterday.

I'm being serious when i say that.

Now you've said that,i think its fair to ask are the likes of john dunn and john morrison being a bit too cunning for the stipes,as they are probably in the top handful of drivers in getting a horse to pick up speed quickly early in a race,and they,along with ben hope did the same in the other mile stand race yesterday.

 

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Gammalite said:

So you're saying I should appeal if I'm driving at 120 kph towards NSW and get a $500 speeding fine this side of the border , and then in NSW I get a $1000 fine as well a few kms down the highway ? , while on exactly the same road and driving at exactly the same speed. (albeit too fast) ?  

The penalties should be the Same as is ''Relevant in lawyer Galah eyes?  , as the rules are the same (similar) . But the penalty is different so that is great evidence for an appeal case ? 

It's a different state mate.  as is Moran . he's in Vic .What happened in QLD or NZ no good to him .  he couldn't possibly win an appeal on that evidence.  he'd need to convince them he didn't make contact with the horses legs . can't undo that.  can't go whimpering about some other bloke got off, why shouldn't I .

actually he didn't get disqualified anyway. The Horse did. do you think he still got a unplaced driver Fee ?? or should he appeal that too 😉

good point,but i would say thats not comparing apples with apples.

after all,the HRA rules and penalty guidlines would be the same throughtout australia and not different between states.

And i wouldimagine Harness racing australia awould not expect different states to be dishiong out significantly different level of penalties.

That would be like saying the hrnz stipes in the auckland province can enforce the rules different to say southland.Thats not how its supposed to work.

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

after all,the HRA rules and penalty guidlines would be the same throughtout australia and not different between states.

And i wouldimagine Harness racing australia awould not expect different states to be dishiong out significantly different level of penalties.

That would be like saying the hrnz stipes in the auckland province can enforce the rules different to say southland.Thats not how its supposed to work.

Well I see what you're saying regarding consistency. And agree,  it would be great if all Penalties were universal. especially for horrific crime. but it just doesn't happen. it's case by case assessed. 

But the truth is in law courts and sporting events as well , the local governing body, judge, stipe panel, revue panel,  all assess and penalize as they see fit at the time. with whatever misdemeanor happened.  It may always causes some consternation as some serious offenders get off light.  and some like Nigel McGrath or Phil Coulson get a huge penalty of seven years DQ each  when others are at 1-2 years for milkshaking or even a fine for caffiene.

New Zealand leading NZ trainers the Dunns had 4 horses disqualified with positives for Caffiene 2017 and got off with a small fine , where-as Phil Coulson , one of the greatest WA horseman ever (and a hall of famer inductee) was given SEVEN years DQ . and Junior's Image disqualified for Caffiene positive swab a week after winning the Interdominion Grand Final at Christchurch when it was nobbled. some things don't work out well (for some)  regarding rules of racing. or even in a court of law. (depends who's on duty lol )

All the cobalt cases are looked at on a case by case basis. different penalties are dished up all the time for different cases. Probably would be great if all the same , but they're not. 

Moran is different to the NZ situation(s) and QLD situation regarding the dropped foot. he drove on with a leg down in a tight race-winning situation.  

Let's say we look at Race Day treatments. Some trainers might get one year, and others 6 months, and it might come down to prior history, warnings, first time infringements , mitigating circumstances , all sorts of things for assessing what penalty to give. Not sure what they did with Emma Stewart that time , maybe 6 months?. Kiwi Lad Jack Trainor is out at the moment DQed (Grimson sidekick) but shouldn't be looking at what others got for similar offence as each case is slightly unique , and dealt with and penalized accordingly . 

just quietly I don't think the horse Captain Hammerhead should of been DQed , but Moran himself should of been sanctioned as the Penalty, in agreement with your assessment, but it is what it is, and the Penalty given Makes an impact, and hopefully we won't see it happen again. (driver boot hitting horses hind legs/hooves ) any time soon.  

Stewards have discretionary powers when it comes to Penalty, like a magistrate. so operate as such. that's life. ..

[Chief Stipe]

37 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

and the Penalty given Makes an impact, and hopefully we won't see it happen again. (driver boot hitting horses hind legs/hooves ) any time soon.  

That's the key point.  His boot hit the hock of the horse in the run to the judge.  Not at the start!

It is akin to a bloody hard over head whip hit.