G3 2yo

[Huey]

How can anyone claim this to be a G3 race , compare to the 2yo races at Rosehill & Sandown it's an absolute joke this can go down on a horses CV as a G3.

https://www.breednet.com.au/news/36586/g3-victory-for-$1.3million-snitzel-colt-

[Chief Stipe]

Two very very good 2yr olds quinelled the race.  

Why would you consider it a joke?

I will accept though that this race has been stuffed up from the pattern perspective.  The field quality has dropped off since the introduction of the KM.

 

[Jim Green]

It was a maiden with 1 horse that had won. A Joke of a group 3 I agree,but easy for us punters.

Was better than bank interest and easy money.

Think All Blacks playing in your local competition

[Jim Green]

3 minutes ago, Jim Green said:

It was a maiden with 1 horse that had won. A Joke of a group 3 I agree,but easy for us punters.

Was better than bank interest and easy money.

Think All Blacks playing in your local competition

I am not a big fan of odds on betting but the Te Akau 2yo into Wilydoit was a quick investment for a nice night out. They both looked absolute good things on paper if they didn't fall over

[Huey]

51 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Two very very good 2yr olds quinelled the race.  

Why would you consider it a joke?

I will accept though that this race has been stuffed up from the pattern perspective.  The field quality has dropped off since the introduction of the KM.

 

Remains to be seen if the 2nd horse is a good horse, the winner certainly is decent for NZ but it would want to be at that price.

From a Black Type perspective that race was higher than the KM (yes I know it's a sales race closed off etc) but for goodness sake anyone who thinks that race was deserving of G3 status needs a lobotomy,  it's also much worse than when Taranaki had it.

[Wingman]

2 hours ago, Huey said:

I will accept though that this race has been stuffed up from the pattern perspective.  The field quality has dropped off since the introduction of the KM.

And there in lies the real problem. At the beginning of the season the group races are known, the quality of the future fields are not known; however an astute planner would know that the pattern has been stuffed therefore serious adjustment is required otherwise there will be some chronic sub standard group races.

Apart from stripping group races from southern clubs and moving them north what was changed 9 months ago? I suggest the next move will be to also move this race north. The agenda is set and unless the incoming change at the top of NZTR says enough (unlikely) you/we are watching the future of NZ racing, which will be totally top heavy and ultimately a disaster.

[Chief Stipe]

12 hours ago, Jim Green said:

It was a maiden with 1 horse that had won. A Joke of a group 3 I agree,but easy for us punters.

So I guess you found the Taranaki Cup mildly hilarious?

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, Huey said:

Remains to be seen if the 2nd horse is a good horse, the winner certainly is decent for NZ but it would want to be at that price.

The 2nd horse showed it is a very good horse.  There was a fair bit of class in that race but without exposed form.

What has the price of a horse got to do with a horse being "decent"?  $1.3m is a snip for a Snitzel colt out of a Lonhro mare.  The dam line has the French bred Snowdrift - a prolific producer of Grp winners in Australia including Snowland.  If he keeps winning that $1.3m will be worth 20 or 30 times that.

I'm disappointed but not surprised @Huey that your blinkers don't allow you to say the winner is obviously at the top level.  I've seen him up close and he is a very well put together colt.  Unbeaten to date in races and trials.  His trial at Matamata on the 14th of January against older horses was impressive.  One to watch if he stays sound.

16 hours ago, Huey said:

From a Black Type perspective that race was higher than the KM (yes I know it's a sales race closed off etc) but for goodness sake anyone who thinks that race was deserving of G3 status needs a lobotomy,  it's also much worse than when Taranaki had it.

You can't knock it when it has only  raced at Ellerslie once.  Trainers are notoriously slow to adapt.

Most of any perceived problems are related to the pattern and placement of this specific race.  This race was being screwed by those things well before it was shifted from New Plymouth.  Distance to travel and the track condition there didn't help either on attracting a good field.  That said it was a useful G3 in the past.

Both New Plymouth, Ellerslie and NZTR thought moving it would help it BUT one thing that has been learnt from this latest edition of the race is that location isn't the only problem.

As I've posted on a few occasions before all pattern roads point to KM and then to March at Ellerslie.  There is very little in the way of alternative pathways for non KM eligible horses.  Very little for 3yr old sprinting fillies but that's another topic. 

It isn't a dissimilar model to what happens in Australia where all paths point to a few tracks in each State.  The difference is the pattern isn't skewed and based around races where ALL comers are welcome.

[Huey]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

The 2nd horse showed it is a very good horse.  There was a fair bit if class in that race but without exposed form.

What has the price of a horse got to do with a horse being "decent"?  $1.3m is a snip for a Snitzel colt out of a Lonhro mare.  The dam line has the French bred Snowdrift - a prolific producer of Grp winners in Australia including Snowland.  If he keeps winning that $1.3m will be worth 20 or 30 times that.

I'm disappointed but not surprised @Huey that your blinkers don't allow you to say the winner is obviously at the top level.  I've seen him up close and he is a very well put together colt.  Unbeaten to date in races and trials.  His trial at Matamata on the 14th of January against older horses was impressive.  One to watch if he stays sound.

You can't knock it when it has only  raced at Ellerslie once.  Trainers are notoriously slow to adapt.

Most of any perceived problems are related to the pattern and placement of this specific race.  This race was being screwed by those things well before it was shifted from New Plymouth.  Distance to travel and the track condition there didn't help either on attracting a good field.  That said it was a useful G3 in the past.

Both New Plymouth, Ellerslie and NZTR thought moving it would help it BUT one thing that has been learnt from this latest edition of the race is that location isn't the only problem.

As I've posted on a few occasions before all patten roads point to KM and then to March at Ellerslie.  There is very little in the way of alternative pathways for non KM eligible horses.  Very little for 3yr old sprinting fillies but that's another topic. 

It isn't a dissimilar model to what happens in Australia where all paths point to a few tracks in each State.  The difference is the pattern isn't skewed and based around races where ALL comers are welcome.

Winner is good for NZ , would he have won any of the 2yo races at Rosehill or Sandown on Saturday?

Unexposed form , I've heard it all now.

[Chief Stipe]

46 minutes ago, Huey said:

Winner is good for NZ , would he have won any of the 2yo races at Rosehill or Sandown on Saturday?

He would have been competitive.  At least he had already won a Listed race before winning on Saturday.  The winner at Sandown was a maiden - winning the G3 Chairmans!  Actually they were all maidens in that race!  

I guess @Wingman , @Doomed , and @Jim Green all think that Group 3 two year old race at Sandown was a JOKE!

[Wingman]

Watch it Chief. My thoughts/contribution on this post only are about the screwed up pattern in New Zealand which I do know you at least agree on that. I have no interest in being dragged into comparisons with races in Australia

[Chief Stipe]

18 minutes ago, Wingman said:

Watch it Chief. My thoughts/contribution on this post only are about the screwed up pattern in New Zealand which I do know you at least agree on that. I have no interest in being dragged into comparisons with races in Australia

Fair point.  I was just making the point that many of the reasons used to negatively critique races in New Zealand could apply equally to races in Australia.

[Jim Green]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

He would have been competitive.  At least he had already won a Listed race before winning on Saturday.  The winner at Sandown was a maiden - winning the G3 Chairmans!  Actually they were all maidens in that race!  

I guess @Wingman , @Doomed , and @Jim Green all think that Group 3 two year old race at Sandown was a JOKE!

 

Yes I do, just as I believe the first 2 year old races of the season at Randwick when every single horse is having it's first start being a listed race is silly.

The Taranaki Cup was a full field of race winners. I found it far from funny as my selection ran 2nd and I backed it on the nose at a good price. I got greedy.

Not sure why you are getting so defensive. The group 3 2yo race in New Zealando is clearly poorly placed on the calendar and is a joke

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Jim Green said:

Yes I do, just as I believe the first 2 year old races of the season at Randwick when every single horse is having it's first start being a listed race is silly.

But was the Grp 3 at Sandown which was all maidens and won by a first starter OK?

Other than the size of the field how is it any different to the one held at Ellerslie on Saturday?

[curious]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Fair point.  I was just making the point that many of the reasons used to negatively critique races in New Zealand could apply equally to races in Australia.

You always have maidens and first starters even in 2yo Group races don't you?

[Murray Fish]

I think it will be a strong form race!  the entain filly ran well!

[Jim Green]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

But was the Grp 3 at Sandown which was all maidens and won by a first starter OK?

Other than the size of the field how is it any different to the one held at Ellerslie on Saturday?

I've already answered your question.

Do I also think the 2yo group 3 race at sandown was a joke?

I replied "yes I do"

Not sure how many other ways I can answer it. Australia has far to many stakes races especially for 2yos

[Chief Stipe]

43 minutes ago, Jim Green said:

I've already answered your question.

Do I also think the 2yo group 3 race at sandown was a joke?

I replied "yes I do"

Not sure how many other ways I can answer it. Australia has far to many stakes races especially for 2yos

All good.

I wonder what @Huey thinks about the Sandown race.

[Huey]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

All good.

I wonder what @Huey thinks about the Sandown race.

It's just opinions in the end, but I do not think the winner in NZ wd have won the Sandown race, certainly not the Sydney races. But it matters not what I say as we will likely never know.

[Chief Stipe]

41 minutes ago, Huey said:

But it matters not what I say as we will likely never know

True but then you did do the comparison.

[Huey]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

True but then you did do the comparison.

Indeed I did.

[Doomed]

11 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

He would have been competitive.  At least he had already won a Listed race before winning on Saturday.  The winner at Sandown was a maiden - winning the G3 Chairmans!  Actually they were all maidens in that race!  

I guess @Wingman , @Doomed , and @Jim Green all think that Group 3 two year old race at Sandown was a JOKE!

What have I got to do with it? I hadn't expressed any opinion.

The Australian black type system is just as bad as NZ's. I'm not sure if anyone has noticed.

[TAB For Ever]

10 minutes ago, Doomed said:

What have I got to do with it? I hadn't expressed any opinion.

The Australian black type system is just as bad as NZ's. I'm not sure if anyone has noticed.

Haha....you there by Association !

Your membership in the tight five ensures involvement  !