Question being asked BOAY punters!

[Brodie]

How many punters are  getting a lot less $ on at agencies and PUB TAB’s on FIXED ODDS than they were?

Personally know how damn frustrating it is when the Bookies only allow not large amounts on,  then slash the odds several times, making it look like all this money has come for a horse.

It actually beggars belief that they are the only legal betting agency in NZ for horse racing, and yet they are not willing to take the punters on for any reasonable amount!!!

Question needs to be asked why they are not prepared to have the Punters Promise limits for all bets and just not WIN BETS fixed odds?

TAB/ ENTAIN are not trying to increase turnover on harness racing, and yet the CEO Brad Steele of HRNZ says nothing???

is this one of the reasons Dean Shannon was moved on from ENTAIN as he did not agree with what they were doing to harness racing in NZ?

Personally don’t think they have got many that actually have business sense and the ones that have, have been moved on as they didnt like how Entain was operating!

Is anyone allowed by the TAB Bookies to wager reasonable amounts????

 

[Spatchcock]

15 hours ago, Brodie said:

 

Question needs to be asked why they are not prepared to have the Punters Promise limits for all bets and just not WIN BETS fixed odds?

 

 

... because it was by decree of the Racing Minister??

[the galah]

27 minutes ago, Spatchcock said:

... because it was by decree of the Racing Minister??

so we can't thank entain for the punters promise either,just macanulty

Edited yesterday at 12:51 AM by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, Brodie said:

TAB/ ENTAIN are not trying to increase turnover on harness racing

Increasing Turnover on Fixed Odds is not the answer.  Increasing margin and profit is.  What you are asking is for ENTAIN to increase Turnover by taking bigger bets at better odds but at the sure risk of losing money.  How does Harness Racing win then?

[Chief Stipe]

15 minutes ago, the galah said:

so we can't thank entain for the punters promise either,just macanulty

In most jurisdictions that I know of it is legislated.  Very few agencies if any will not have some limits.  Bookies are not in the game to go broke.

[Brodie]

27 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Increasing Turnover on Fixed Odds is not the answer.  Increasing margin and profit is.  What you are asking is for ENTAIN to increase Turnover by taking bigger bets at better odds but at the sure risk of losing money.  How does Harness Racing win then?

Chief, personally think the way they are operating their business is poor!

They must be haemorrhaging big time losing potential income by their restrictions and odds slashing.

At the end of the day the odds are always in their favour so why dont they operate that way?

[Spatchcock]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

so we can't thank entain for the punters promise either,just macanulty

correct

[Brodie]

Entain would be happy if they just had the sports and online gambling that is what they wanted all along.

Low cost and big reward, and that is what they will be aiming for in a couple of years!

TAB and McAnulty were wrong in going with Entain for the betterment of racing!

Anyone know how many are still employed at Petone or is everything being done from Oz?

Are there many Bookies remaining or is it being done by computers??

[the galah]

5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Increasing Turnover on Fixed Odds is not the answer.  Increasing margin and profit is.  What you are asking is for ENTAIN to increase Turnover by taking bigger bets at better odds but at the sure risk of losing money.  How does Harness Racing win then?

so the tab restricts taking bets from known winning punters.

But they take the same bet from everyone else.

so its the person making the bet who is targeted,not the actual bet.

i understand why you may think that is best practice,i may not agree with it,but i understand it.

but,your comments linking that to greater tab profit,well its not as simple as that.

if profit is the priority like you say it should be,then you need to have more flexible thinking.

because as i have pointed out many times,the tab may reduce the losses on the ff by restricting winning ff punters,but if those same punters use those profts generated to invest on tote pools, then by resticting the ff profits,you most likely will impact their spending on the tote pools.Its just the way it works.

i've given specific examples several times in the past to explain how it can actually play out.

For some reason people will still always argue its black and white,in other words restricting winning ff punters leads to greater tab profit,when clearly that isn't always the case. And thats also without even factoring in winning ff punters  using some of their profits to participatie in other areas of the industry like ownership,breeding, sponsorship.

 

Edited yesterday at 06:13 AM by the galah

[PeterLambFan]

3 hours ago, Brodie said:

 

Anyone know how many are still employed at Petone or is everything being done from Oz?

Are there many Bookies remaining or is it being done by computers??

No one is at Petone from my understanding. 
 

 

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, PeterLambFan said:

No one is at Petone from my understanding. 
 

 

So selling out to Entain  has cost a lot of New Zealanders their jobs!

They were meant to be guaranteed employment with the TAB  for I believe 2 years minimum, but we know they started getting rid of staff pretty early on!

Anyway they will not need many staff in NZ once the guaranteed funding to racing stops, all be done out of Oz!

[PeterLambFan]

36 minutes ago, Brodie said:

So selling out to Entain  has cost a lot of New Zealanders their jobs!

They were meant to be guaranteed employment with the TAB  for I believe 2 years minimum, but we know they started getting rid of staff pretty early on!

Anyway they will not need many staff in NZ once the guaranteed funding to racing stops, all be done out of Oz!

They just don’t have any staff at Petone anymore I believe. They are based in Wellington CBD now. 

[Brodie]

10 minutes ago, PeterLambFan said:

They just don’t have any staff at Petone anymore I believe. They are based in Wellington CBD now. 

Interesting!

Does anyone know where the Bookies that set the odds are based or is it set by computers from Oz and algorithms do the rest?

[PeterLambFan]

38 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Interesting!

Does anyone know where the Bookies that set the odds are based or is it set by computers from Oz and algorithms do the rest?

There are some in Wellington as far as I am aware. 

[Chief Stipe]

12 hours ago, Brodie said:

So selling out to Entain  has cost a lot of New Zealanders their jobs!

You assume that the jobs were real jobs.  Cost efficiency only benefits the Industry.  A shame this Government hasn't taken a bigger knife to slash the 15,000 extra Government employees employed under the last Government.  The old TAB was run like a Government Agency and selling to ENTAIN was probably the only way to break that culture.

[Chief Stipe]

18 hours ago, Brodie said:

They must be haemorrhaging big time losing potential income by their restrictions and odds slashing.

At the end of the day the odds are always in their favour so why dont they operate that way?

I don't know how many times I need to explain this to you.  Yes under the Tote system the odds are always in the TAB's favour as they clip the ticket of every bet at a fixed rate.  BUT with Fixed Odds they are just another punter in the market and theoretically they could lose money on every race if they didn't set their prices right.  Yes they price the market in their favour but that doesn't guarantee they won't make a loss.

[Brodie]

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

You assume that the jobs were real jobs.  Cost efficiency only benefits the Industry.  A shame this Government hasn't taken a bigger knife to slash the 15,000 extra Government employees employed under the last Government.  The old TAB was run like a Government Agency and selling to ENTAIN was probably the only way to break that culture.

Certainly can say that I have no idea how the TAB used to operate with staff numbers etc. and do not know the day to day operations under Entain!

However I do know that previously they had issues that needed addressing and this was selling out half the ownership for 25 years to An overseas gambling business Entain.

Many thought this was going to be the saviour for the TAB with 900million being paid for the half share for the 25 years.

This deal is very very short sighted in my opinion as once the $900m is wasted, what are we going to have for loss of half the profit?

What I do know and it is probably the same with all gambling agencies worldwide is a business that has no scruples and acts and treats their customers with little ethics.

Time is going to tell but unfortunately I believe that the NZ racing industry is in deep trouble, the TAB/Entain will be fine as they will survive off Sports Betting and online gambling in the years to come!

 

[Shad]

Noticed oncourse the other day the tote staff pushing fixed odds, telling me that they were better than tote odds at the time I was putting my bet on, others just done it without telling you, are they pushing the fixed odds more for some reason, last greymouth meeting was pleased to come out on right side for a change, my bet captain upham, was around 35s fixed an tote about 30sec before start time, took tote odds and ended 67s, when fixed closed at 40s, quite a few times I've been caught on the wrong side, don't understand how the comparisons are so different at times

[Brodie]

28 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I don't know how many times I need to explain this to you.  Yes under the Tote system the odds are always in the TAB's favour as they clip the ticket of every bet at a fixed rate.  BUT with Fixed Odds they are just another punter in the market and theoretically they could lose money on every race if they didn't set their prices right.  Yes they price the market in their favour but that doesn't guarantee they won't make a loss.

Chief, I appreciate that the odds need to be set right for fixed odds!

However there is generally a 30% margin approx. in favour of the TAB and so how on earth can they not be making money?.

The bigger the turnover the more they can make, just like Briscoes etc. they have big turnover and make a % profit on that.

Far better to encourage spending and make % profit on big turnover than making larger yield on much lower turnover by putting punters off!

If they want to have betting restrictions on punters then so be it, but have those betting restrictions on every punter in NZ, just corrupt to be singling out some!

They take a bet and then slash odds so that it is not attractive for other punters, so lose turnover.

At the end of the day, that is the way they think is best for them to operate, however we will wait and see if it is going to be beneficial for NZ racing!

It wont be!!

 

 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Brodie

[Chief Stipe]

44 minutes ago, Brodie said:

However I do know that previously they had issues that needed addressing and this was selling out half the ownership for 25 years to An overseas gambling business Entain.

That's not correct.  Not half.  The new organisation TABNZ with the approval of Government sold the sole license to operate wagering on racing and sports to ENTAIN.

32 minutes ago, Brodie said:

The bigger the turnover the more they can make, just like Briscoes etc. they have big turnover and make a % profit on that.

I've given up trying to explain that Fixed Odds increased turnover does not equal increased profit.  For example if you were able to increase your turnover would you do so at a loss?  You'd give up punting first or your family would seek help for you. 

 

[Brodie]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

That's not correct.  Not half.  The new organisation TABNZ with the approval of Government sold the sole license to operate wagering on racing and sports to ENTAIN.

I've given up trying to explain that Fixed Odds increased turnover does not equal increased profit.  For example if you were able to increase your turnover would you do so at a loss?  You'd give up punting first or your family would seek help for you. 

 

So how much does Entain have to give racing when the 5 years is up? 

Significantly higher turnover will bring bigger profits, maybe not yield wise but bigger profit overall.

Yes some punters will do well but many punters will lose more as well!

Where is it written that a gambling agency is only required to take wagering from losing punters?

They put up the odds for punters to wager on and then only take the wagering from who they want?

With the monopoly that the NZ TAB has now, they should be treating everyone with the same respect!

If they want to have these restrictions, then restrict everyone to the same amount, that is my point!

[the galah]

16 hours ago, Brodie said:

So selling out to Entain  has cost a lot of New Zealanders their jobs!

They were meant to be guaranteed employment with the TAB  for I believe 2 years minimum, but we know they started getting rid of staff pretty early on!

Anyway they will not need many staff in NZ once the guaranteed funding to racing stops, all be done out of Oz!

it still must be a complicated picture brodie.

we all can tell hrnz is spending way more than the industry self generates and burning through their entain money.

then we know hrnz also have a policy that prioritises the loss making clubs and the loss making sectors within the industry, because they see them as strategically important,even though its obvious the support for the industry in those areas and sectors has diminshed. So hrnz has themselves placed a  chain and ball around the overall nz industry by sticking with the status quo instead of forward planning.

so really its  hrnz 's policies that are the main problem .

the thing about the entain deal was i agree with you that there would have been better partners for the racing industry than entain,but quite simply the nz racing industries pushed for entain because they felt they needed a massive short term injection of capital or the industry would be in serious strife.so i get that as well.

there was no doubtt the website that tabcorp have for the racing is miles better than the tab website. e.g.You can view video replays of all runners previous starts prior to making a selection. No need to go onto the hrnz that often never works,and the tabcorp website has videos of each race put up for viewing within 5-10 minutes of the finish of each race,whereas the only place you will see that in nz is on the hrnz website and they can often take an hour or two to put up.And combining with tabcorp would have seen bigger tote pools than combining with entain.Then you have to remamber tabcorp control the sky racing coverage which massively effects turnovers. so many other things as well,but the nz racing industry went with the quick hit of cash.

then you factor in the many millions hrnz want to waste on bailing out clubs like auckland and cambridge who were run incompetently in previous years,often with hrnzs oversight and seeming blessing.e.g cambrisge running slot races that added significantly to their financial hole which then required hrnz bailing out. HRNZ have knowingly particpated in that fiscal irresponsibilty.

so its really hrnz who are the issue.

nothing entain has done in the last 3 years has changed. they have been up front.

its hrnz who have a spend and hope attitude.

Because hrnz couldn't possibly know for sure just how much more better off they will be from the geo blocking impact on racing turnover here and overseas and just how much better off they will be from increased sports betting returns from entains increased turnovers on sport. Its all a guess. And the impact of the greyhound industry closing has many variables that they will be guessing. Like hrnz will get a share of turnover payouts that used to go to the greyhound industry and you would guess it would outweigh the lost revenue from the harness tracks who host greyhound racing,but it must all vbe a bit of a guess. until thats all played out over the next year or two.

so when you spend and hope,maybe things may turn out managable,maybe they may turn out worse that you think,the thing is why are hrnz taking such a risky approach.

the people in charge currently,seem to be taking the same apprioach the ATC took with their apartment development. In other words,making huge decisions without fully understanding the risks.

Edited 9 hours ago by the galah

[Brodie]

Regards the closing if greyhounds due supposedly to cruelty to the animals?

How hypocritical is it surely that NZ isnt able  to wager on NZ dogs as it is too cruel, and yet we are able to wager on Austrslian greyhound racing??

Clearly the Ozzie dog racing isnt as cruel or we wouldnt be allowed to wager on it?

Absolute lunacy to can greyhounds in NZ and wipe out the greyhound breed totally.

Far better to Close down the Green Party and The Maori Party for the cruelty they would cause NZ citizens should there be enough losers who vote for the LEFTY Losers!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nowornever]

3 hours ago, Brodie said:

How hypocritical is it surely that NZ isnt able  to wager on NZ dogs as it is too cruel, and yet we are able to wager on Austrslian greyhound racing??

If welfare is the genuine concern why isn't there either a total prohibition on greyhound wagering, or a transparent explanation of why Australian racing meets a standard that New Zealand racing supposedly cannot.

Has anyone directly responsible for the banning been cornered and questioned about this? 

I imagine it would lead to some awkward umming and aahing. 

[PeterLambFan]

46 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

If welfare is the genuine concern why isn't there either a total prohibition on greyhound wagering, or a transparent explanation of why Australian racing meets a standard that New Zealand racing supposedly cannot.

Has anyone directly responsible for the banning been cornered and questioned about this? 

I imagine it would lead to some awkward umming and aahing. 

Totally agree. I can’t quite understand why no one in the media has picked up on this or cares. It makes absolutely no sense to me.