Thomass Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 It's a bit like the Road Code... At some point today, when you rolled the Roller down your Remmers driveway... ...You luckily missed the next door neighbour spinster Brabra...walking her Chew wa wa to the local off licence to pick up her pink Gin... ....well done... So to do the Starting crew get lucky...but it ran out...big time David Greene's onto it though... Ive tweeted him about it and it appears he's deeply suspicious about things 'siren' as well... ...take a look at the Red Flashing light in the video nasty....or is it not flashing....as it should be? And he's into Blue Prints as well by the looks...good on him While he has taken the proceedings in his stride, Greene is hopeful an official inquiry into what transpired will result in measures being taken to ensure the debacle doesn’t happen again. “I guess what I want to see is that all the factors that contributed to what happened are brought out in the inquiry and they look at the system moving forward,” he said. “I know the starter is the one that pushed the button for both the start and then the false start but I’m sure there are other contributing factors that need to be considered. “I don’t know what happened before he pressed the button but when the false start was signalled it wasn’t very clear at all. “I didn’t hear any siren and I didn’t see the clerk of the course, who is positioned in front of the barrier, making any signals. “Personally, I don’t think it should have been a false start as it affects too many of those who ran in the restart. “It’s no coincidence that the first three horses pulled up were the first three home in the restart as they did the least work. “I would think if you spoke to some of the other trainers that did have starters they will tell you their chances were definitely affected so maybe the decision should have been to can the race and run it again on another day. “What I would like is the inquiry to result in a blueprint on how to handle the situation being clearly spelt out for future use.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 6 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Oh so THEY WERE following the manual! So "Scooter" always takes the "middle to outer" even when he is THE Starter not the Assistant? you are defending the indefensible...its very simple...DO NOT PUSH THE BUTTON UNTIL ALL STARTERS ARE LOADED.! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 19 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: you are defending the indefensible...its very simple...DO NOT PUSH THE BUTTON UNTIL ALL STARTERS ARE LOADED.! I'm not defending anything. I'm just highlighting the fact that what goes on now from when the horses leave the birdcage to when the gates are loaded and opened has got increasingly complex without a corresponding increase in resources. You may wish to take a simplistic approach if you wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 24 minutes ago, Thomass said: “I guess what I want to see is that all the factors that contributed to what happened are brought out in the inquiry and they look at the system moving forward,” he said. “I know the starter is the one that pushed the button for both the start and then the false start but I’m sure there are other contributing factors that need to be considered. Nice to see he is taking a pragmatic approach and aligns with my thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said: I'm not defending anything. I'm just highlighting the fact that what goes on now from when the horses leave the birdcage to when the gates are loaded and opened has got increasingly complex without a corresponding increase in resources. You may wish to take a simplistic approach if you wish. 'increasingly complex'...aw God..do me a ..favour! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 Just now, holy ravioli said: 'increasingly complex'...aw God..do me a ..favour! OK man of few words. 30 years ago can you remember - barrier blankets, hoods, blind folds, preferential treatment to when horses go in the gates, Clerk of Course horses being used to keep starters "happy"....so on and so on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: OK man of few words. 30 years ago can you remember - barrier blankets, hoods, blind folds, preferential treatment to when horses go in the gates, Clerk of Course horses being used to keep starters "happy"....so on and so on? completely irrelevant...!FFS in the now...just make sure ALL horses are loaded...how hard is that. Stop making a c#@#* of yourself with fatuous,puerile nonsense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: completely irrelevant...!FFS in the now...just make sure ALL horses are loaded...how hard is that. Stop making a c#@#* of yourself with fatuous,puerile nonsense. It's not irrelevant but obviously beyond you comprehension. Tell me how would it work if every horse in the NZ Derby required a barrier blanket? PLUS a blind fold? Actually it would be easier to manage because there would be no exceptions. I suppose you were one of those that laid into the Starter when the barrier blanket was left off a runner in a previous Derby? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: It's not irrelevant but obviously beyond you comprehension. Tell me how would it work if every horse in the NZ Derby required a barrier blanket? PLUS a blind fold? Actually it would be easier to manage because there would be no exceptions. I suppose you were one of those that laid into the Starter when the barrier blanket was left off a runner in a previous Derby? I don't care if they require a shave before they are loaded,until ALL the runners are loaded ,don't push the button. Do you require a sledgehammer you recalcitrant ,tergiversational ,lightweight?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 13 hours ago, holy ravioli said: I don't care if they require a shave before they are loaded,until ALL the runners are loaded ,don't push the button. Do you require a sledgehammer you recalcitrant ,tergiversational ,lightweight?? YOU may not care what goes on behind the gates however I'm sure there are many who support my contention that the activity behind the gates has got out of hand. You are obviously used to a push button world. If indeed you are I'm surprised you are not suggesting that there should be another button in a safe position down on the gates which the assistant starter must press before the starter on the stand "has power".... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: You are obviously used to a push button world. If indeed you are I'm surprised you are not suggesting that there should be another button in a safe position down on the gates which the assistant starter must press before the starter on the stand "has power".... Sure. Maybe a remote "all loaded" button to do that if they can't manage it by more simple communication channels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 14 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Nice to see he is taking a pragmatic approach and aligns with my thinking. Yea, you mean the system in place called.... ...FOLLOWING THE F IN STARTERS MANUAL system... The Systems in place need to be Audited every so often though... The RIU clearly knew the Starters were ignoring the Manual... ...and both Starter and Assistant should have to have both hearing and Eyesight tests every year... ...after sitting their Starting License Test.....like a Drivers License Any f ups and there's an automatic Alchohol and Drug test...just like a Driving Accident Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 14 minutes ago, curious said: Sure. Maybe a remote "all loaded" button to do that if they can't manage it by more simple communication channels. I don't believe "simple communication" channels can work in the present scenario where there is so much going on. I've stood behind or alongside starting gates many a time over the years and recall that there is a lot of activity, bustle and noise going on. Add in all the extra requirements that we have today and there are bound to be mistakes. I don't believe you can heap the blame all on the Starter if something goes wrong given they are not in total control. Why is it that every Starter in action today has made mistakes? People don't set out to make mistakes. When you compare the percentage of stuff ups over the number of races held I'm surprised there are not more. Every system has systemic error built in. A bit like trying to get the road toll down to zero - when you have vehicles passing each other in opposite directions at 100 km/hr and are 2 metres apart you will get accidents. One thing they could do to improve things is what they do in Japan or Hong Kong (or is it both?) is when they start loading they restrict the movements of the horses behind the gates. They walk up a rope/tape to confine where the horses can go. We have seen a trend in New Zealand where the horses are scattered like Brown's Cows. Jockeys parking themselves and their horses in the shade etc. How many times have you seen a horse having to be trotted from what seems 50m+ away to the gates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 1 minute ago, Thomass said: Yea, you mean the system in place called.... ...FOLLOWING THE F IN STARTERS MANUAL system... The Systems in place need to be Audited every so often though... The RIU clearly knew the Starters were ignoring the Manual... ...and both Starter and Assistant should have to have both hearing and Eyesight tests every year... ...after sitting their Starting License Test.....like a Drivers License Any f ups and there's an automatic Alchohol and Drug test...just like a Driving Accident Once again Thomaas you have added nothing constructive. Can you post the Manual and the rules pertaining what happens behind the gates? What are the Clerk of the Course(s) responsibility, the jockeys, the barrier attendants....etc. A "Manual" doesn't solve anything if the manual is impractical and things have changed. The "Manual" may very well describe a process that is flawed. A bit like ISO quality control - you can get ISO accreditation but it doesn't confirm you have a GOOD process just that you have A process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 14 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: It's not irrelevant but obviously beyond you comprehension. Tell me how would it work if every horse in the NZ Derby required a barrier blanket? PLUS a blind fold? Actually it would be easier to manage because there would be no exceptions. I suppose you were one of those that laid into the Starter when the barrier blanket was left off a runner in a previous Derby? And do you know what 'System' he had in place for the Derby? The old 'memory system'....and then he lied when questioned about ignoring the sheet list system in place from the manual... "there was a horse playing up alongside and we got sidetracked" When clearly on Video...it shows 2 attendants calmly guiding the IN A TWINKLING into its stall...minus the BB and minus the attached rope for blankets on the back of the stall... Both that and this he told blatant porkies... ...and Guerin swallowed the b/s without checking that the Big Red flashing light hood was still on...standing alongside Scooter and the Barrier Attendant Let it go...You're looking like a goose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Once again Thomaas you have added nothing constructive. Can you post the Manual and the rules pertaining what happens behind the gates? What are the Clerk of the Course(s) responsibility, the jockeys, the barrier attendants....etc. A "Manual" doesn't solve anything if the manual is impractical and things have changed. The "Manual" may very well describe a process that is flawed. A bit like ISO quality control - you can get ISO accreditation but it doesn't confirm you have a GOOD process just that you have A process. And once you again you ignore the simplicity that if the Manual was followed it wouldn't have happened... He failed to get the required "all clear" from Scooter You could of course have an Apollo Space Program clearance Each barrier attendant "we're good to go go" "Blast off" But it's all in the Manual...and I cant be f'ed posting the link Go to directives/rules...it's under POLICY....meaning it HAS TO BE FOLLOWED ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 13 minutes ago, Thomass said: "there was a horse playing up alongside and we got sidetracked" Which is a big part of the problem. There is a lot going on and tasks are not allocated correctly. I would say the "Manual" is flawed. CAN YOU POST THE MANUAL THOMAAS? You seem to know a lot about what's in it. Or are you posting on the basis of hearsay AGAIN?! Since you and lasagne are not interested in posting anything constructive but are intent on blasting the Starter, on the basis you are big punters who got hurt, it looks like I'll have to post another positive system change. Another improvement that could be made is that the person in control is the person on the ground leaving The Starter (or more accurately the guy who pushes the button) to focus on those horses and jockey's in the gates. There is enough going on to keep the average person occupied. Plus it would be difficult to see ALL the barrier blankets etc from the Starters stand. Maybe the person on the ground could raise a flag to say ALL Clear. The signal needs to be visual or anything other than voice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 4 minutes ago, Thomass said: But it's all in the Manual...and I cant be f'ed posting the link Well you CAN be f'ed posting a whole lot of garbage including your stupid Blueprint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Which is a big part of the problem. There is a lot going on and tasks are not allocated correctly. I would say the "Manual" is flawed. CAN YOU POST THE MANUAL THOMAAS? You seem to know a lot about what's in it. Or are you posting on the basis of hearsay AGAIN?! Since you and lasagne are not interested in posting anything constructive but are intent on blasting the Starter, on the basis you are big punters who got hurt, it looks like I'll have to post another positive system change. Another improvement that could be made is that the person in control is the person on the ground leaving The Starter (or more accurately the guy who pushes the button) to focus on those horses and jockey's in the gates. There is enough going on to keep the average person occupied. Plus it would be difficult to see ALL the barrier blankets etc from the Starters stand. Maybe the person on the ground could raise a flag to say ALL Clear. The signal needs to be visual or anything other than voice. Can't you read? HE WAS LYING..no playing up at all...until after IN A TWINKLING entered the Barrier If the Starter's deaf...they could have a sign reader like they do in press conferences now.. ...or just get a NEW ONE....WHO can hear his Assistant say "CLEAR" As required by the F IN MANUAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 17 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Well you CAN be f'ed posting a whole lot of garbage including your stupid Blueprint. Just remember...if they'd followed the Manual...we'd be at the Tennis watching Genie https://loveracing.nz/Downloads/NZTR Starter's Manual July 2009.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, Thomass said: Just remember...if they'd followed the Manual...we'd be at the Tennis watching Genie https://loveracing.nz/Downloads/NZTR Starter's Manual July 2009.pdf Thanks for that. Geez I've only read 5 pages and found all sorts of issues with it. This is a cracker - "If a number of stalls fail and the useable amount is less than 8 then the meeting shall be abandoned or postponed." So much for a 9 horse field! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 This Manual is appalling the more I read it. It has all sorts of grey area decision making in it. A Manual should be black and white. According to the manual leaving a horse out is not a criteria for calling a false start. It should have been a late scratching! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 Yep keep reading.... 9 hours later and I would've posted a hole lot more entertaining shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, Thomass said: Yep keep reading.... 9 hours later and I would've posted a hole lot more entertaining shit Finished reading it. Obviously you have only read selective bits that support your rubbish posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 58 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: This Manual is appalling the more I read it. It has all sorts of grey area decision making in it. A Manual should be black and white. According to the manual leaving a horse out is not a criteria for calling a false start. It should have been a late scratching! And why would leaving one out...which led to 3 others being late scratched...constitute a false start ..when the Starter didn't follow the manual... ...then mistakingly called a false start...because he can't read? The only Grey area is your powers of copping the f on... Have you observed the flashing red light on the video nasty... ...from the Fake Start piece of tech sitting inside the rail yet? The one Greene can't quite believe either...or the siren he didn't hear...and neither did the Clerk... ..Wow...the RIU have got sooooo much to hide in this 'Transparent' Report coming up... Im betting the left they'll hide at least 4 items... ..and then congratulate HQ for providing an OUTSTANDING afternoon tea of Doughboys...to get them through Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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