Chief Stipe Posted January 3, 2020 Share Posted January 3, 2020 I think Thomaass you are over simplifying things. Unfortunately the time between when the horses leave the birdcage and the gates are opened has got substantially more complex and variable over time. Your proposed solution(s) although difficult to clarify do nothing to alleviate the situation. NZ does not provide the people resources during this time that jurisdictions like Japan and Hong Kong do. They have more than one barrier attendant per horse. We are lucky to have 8 in total! We now have horses arriving that require hoods removed, barrier blankets added and removed, blind folds attached and removed, horses requiring to be the last ones in the stalls, horses requiring a cuddle from the clerk of the courses horse and so on and so on. In my opinion these requirements are all a product of rushed, inadequate education and training. (Another topic for another thread - are there licensing requirements and quality controls over horse breakers and pre-trainers?). We also have multiple people in "charge." In my opinion there should be ONE person in charge from when the horses leave the birdcage to at least when they jump. Unless all the additional crap that we have added pre start is removed that person can't be the Starter. It isn't within any person's ability to manage all these scenarios from the starters stand. So I have some sympathy for the starter in this case. If I recall correctly I think the Clerk of the Course's horse was obscuring Pinmedown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 so someone appointed to relay...'all loaded' to the starter is just too complex!? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 10 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: so someone appointed to relay...'all loaded' to the starter is just too complex!? NO someone should be in sole charge of the horses from the moment they leave the birdcage until they start. So "who" relays "all loaded"? Who releases the Clerk of Course to be in front of the gates instead of behind them? What I'm saying is that given the increase in demands behind the gates and the lack of resource to meet them then someone other than the starter needs to be co-ordinating things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 9 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: so someone appointed to relay...'all loaded' to the starter is just too complex!? Sounds a pretty straight forward job for an assistant starter to me. How hard could it be? Not too difficult to understand in the manual either. Seems like plain English. Don't see what occluded vision has to do with it. The required procedure is designed to preclude that risk isn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said: So "who" relays "all loaded"? The assistant starter surely in this case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, curious said: Sounds a pretty straight forward job for an assistant starter to me. How hard could it be? Not too difficult to understand in the manual either. Seems like plain English. Don't see what occluded vision has to do with it. The required procedure is designed to preclude that risk isn't it? I'm saying that limited resources makes it more difficult for the starters. Have someone with authority in charge that gives the all clear to the starter to do his job. And/or cut out all the variation behind gates like preferential loading to some horses - i.e. do what they used to do load from the inside and the centre regardless, be harsher on horses that don't behave (that'll soon get them trained/educated properly), increase the number of attendants. Doesn't matter what you write in a bloody manual or in what language if resources don't match the requirements. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 What a load of nonsense -when I started in this game 24 horse fields were the norm [some 30, some 40] -any horse playing up was sent to the outer, just like the bad boys at the red hots. The starters manual is just common sense and all that is required is that it be followed, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 13 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: I'm saying that limited resources makes it more difficult for the starters. Have someone with authority in charge that gives the all clear to the starter to do his job. And/or cut out all the variation behind gates like preferential loading to some horses - i.e. do what they used to do load from the inside and the centre regardless, be harsher on horses that don't behave (that'll soon get them trained/educated properly), increase the number of attendants. Doesn't matter what you write in a bloody manual or in what language if resources don't match the requirements. what are these 'limited' resources...this is basic 101 everything from safety to integrity.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, Fred said: any horse playing up was sent to the outer, just like the bad boys at the red hots. It seems you agree with me. Now they get a blind fold, hood, a cuddle from the Clerk of the Course's horse, a barrier blanket and preferential last to load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 1 minute ago, holy ravioli said: what are these 'limited' resources...this is basic 101 everything from safety to integrity. The demands on barrier attendants and starters have gone up but the resources haven't. You watch Hong Kong tomorrow night how many attendants there are. Or watch Japan where once the horses are behind the barriers they restrict their movements. In NZ we let them wander all over the place so they can have a quiet moment to themselves away from all the other horses. In my opinion these extra demands has resulted in the Starter losing control. Time to stop all the exceptions. If your particular horse can't behave then you will be scratched. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 This is nothing to do with a horse not behaving. The starter released the field with one horse not loaded. There is a simple specified procedure to prevent that. It only requires two staff to effect, the starter and one other designated person behind the barrier. It is not a matter of resourcing or complexity. It's a matter of defiance and incompetence that this occured. Full stop. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 31 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: The demands on barrier attendants and starters have gone up but the resources haven't. You watch Hong Kong tomorrow night how many attendants there are. Or watch Japan where once the horses are behind the barriers they restrict their movements. In NZ we let them wander all over the place so they can have a quiet moment to themselves away from all the other horses. In my opinion these extra demands has resulted in the Starter losing control. Time to stop all the exceptions. If your particular horse can't behave then you will be scratched. 'In my opinion these extra demands has resulted in the Starter losing control.' you can't be serious...DO NOT PUSH THE BUTTON,UNTIL ALL THE HORSES ARE LOADED!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 27 minutes ago, curious said: This is nothing to do with a horse not behaving. The starter released the field with one horse not loaded. There is a simple specified procedure to prevent that. It only requires two staff to effect, the starter and one other designated person behind the barrier. It is not a matter of resourcing or complexity. It's a matter of defiance and incompetence that this occured. Full stop. I guess you lectured in the social sciences. This is classic systems failure which has more than ONE contributing factor. Sure the Starter let the field go with one horse missing. But my argument is that there was more than ONE contributing factor. The whole scenario now behind the gates is a complete mess. It is under resourced. Mistakes will happen and will increase unless those resources are addressed. Geez it wasn't too long ago that a frequent poster on BOAY was lambasting the Starter for the omission of a barrier blanket! Wasn't that the Derby field? In that case 24 horses to be loaded in about two minutes and all the individual horse requirements to be correctly catered for. Simplify it. Start with - "Get lost Mr Trainer - your horse will go in the order that it is supposed to go in. No exceptions." 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: I guess you lectured in the social sciences. This is classic systems failure which has more than ONE contributing factor. Sure the Starter let the field go with one horse missing. But my argument is that there was more than ONE contributing factor. The whole scenario now behind the gates is a complete mess. It is under resourced. Mistakes will happen and will increase unless those resources are addressed. Geez it wasn't too long ago that a frequent poster on BOAY was lambasting the Starter for the omission of a barrier blanket! Wasn't that the Derby field? In that case 24 horses to be loaded in about two minutes and all the individual horse requirements to be correctly catered for. Simplify it. Start with - "Get lost Mr Trainer - your horse will go in the order that it is supposed to go in. No exceptions." I possibly agree but that's a different issue, not the one at hand here which is very straight forward. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 18 minutes ago, curious said: I possibly agree but that's a different issue, not the one at hand here which is very straight forward. OK we disagree. But I still think the issues are related. Who decided that Pinmedown should be the last to load? Who asked for the Clerk of the Course and his horse to stand beside it? Trainer's and Jockey's have taken over. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: I guess you lectured in the social sciences. This is classic systems failure which has more than ONE contributing factor. Sure the Starter let the field go with one horse missing. But my argument is that there was more than ONE contributing factor. The whole scenario now behind the gates is a complete mess. It is under resourced. Mistakes will happen and will increase unless those resources are addressed. Geez it wasn't too long ago that a frequent poster on BOAY was lambasting the Starter for the omission of a barrier blanket! Wasn't that the Derby field? In that case 24 horses to be loaded in about two minutes and all the individual horse requirements to be correctly catered for. Simplify it. Start with - "Get lost Mr Trainer - your horse will go in the order that it is supposed to go in. No exceptions." Ludicrous argument...irrelevant diversion...as you know there are often delays,vet inspections at the start. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 3 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: Ludicrous argument...irrelevant diversion...as you know there are often delays,vet inspections at the start. What has your point got to do with my opinion? Answer this question - why was Pinmedown given the luxury of being the last horse in the gates? Hint: It wasn't being vetted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: OK we disagree. But I still think the issues are related. Who decided that Pinmedown should be the last to load? Who asked for the Clerk of the Course and his horse to stand beside it? Trainer's and Jockey's have taken over. Completely different issue IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryb Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 Yes, the real issue here is that these 2 (starter & assistant) have a cavalier attitude to the stated rules (designed to prevent exactly this), they have openly said they ignore them. Do that in any other industry and when shit goes wrong you fall on your sword, this looks an open and shut case of we know best turning sour. Unless the inquiry brings up anything contrary, then goodbye as this is the 2nd time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 10 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: What has your point got to do with my opinion? Answer this question - why was Pinmedown given the luxury of being the last horse in the gates? Hint: It wasn't being vetted. some 'luxury' given the race ..started without him!? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 2 hours ago, holy ravioli said: some 'luxury' given the race ..started without him!? You're not going to give an opinion on why Pinmedown was to be the last horse in? Another question what were the barrier attendants doing at the time? Holding onto blindfolds and barrier blankets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 4, 2020 Share Posted January 4, 2020 15 hours ago, curious said: Completely different issue IMO. I believe it is a significant part of the problem. In a general sense the Starter has lost control. It is chaos behind the gates. The Starter has far too many things to focus on now. Their job should be confined to observing the behaviour of the horses and safety of staff and jockeys in the gates and ensuring that each horse is in its designated gate. Also the power to declare a false start if clearly defined criteria has been met. I'm waiting for the day that a horse starts with a blindfold or a removable hood still on. Do you blame the Starter if that occurs? Afterall they get blamed if someone forgets a barrier blanket for a poorly educated horse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 On 4/01/2020 at 12:19 PM, Chief Stipe said: I think Thomaass you are over simplifying things. Unfortunately the time between when the horses leave the birdcage and the gates are opened has got substantially more complex and variable over time. Your proposed solution(s) although difficult to clarify do nothing to alleviate the situation. NZ does not provide the people resources during this time that jurisdictions like Japan and Hong Kong do. They have more than one barrier attendant per horse. We are lucky to have 8 in total! We now have horses arriving that require hoods removed, barrier blankets added and removed, blind folds attached and removed, horses requiring to be the last ones in the stalls, horses requiring a cuddle from the clerk of the courses horse and so on and so on. In my opinion these requirements are all a product of rushed, inadequate education and training. (Another topic for another thread - are there licensing requirements and quality controls over horse breakers and pre-trainers?). We also have multiple people in "charge." In my opinion there should be ONE person in charge from when the horses leave the birdcage to at least when they jump. Unless all the additional crap that we have added pre start is removed that person can't be the Starter. It isn't within any person's ability to manage all these scenarios from the starters stand. So I have some sympathy for the starter in this case. If I recall correctly I think the Clerk of the Course's horse was obscuring Pinmedown. Oh my...can you just STOP...NOW Before you embarrass yourself any further.... ...but facts have always been anathema in your World eh? #facts 18 starters...10 Barrier boys..plus Starter and Assistant...Only ONE IN CHARGE...the Starter The Starter DELGATES.... Other#facts here... Read my posts....it's all been covered ok? A quick synopsis for those who can't read Assistant Scooter was within hand grip of PINMEDOWN...the COTC had departed to the back...Scooter called over a Barrier boy to take P into the barrier...after Scooter takes the Red flashing light hood...off The Starter has trouble with both HEARING and ameliorates the TRUTH As he did when leaving the BB off the Derby runner up...where he also FAILED to adhere to the Manual... and hadn't bothered to list gear on his sheet...AS REQUIRED BY THE MANUAL I have written evidence of this FACT The Starter is required to receive clearance from his Assistant...2 sets of eyes thing... Had he have done this....a very simple POLICY...as set out in STARTING INTEGRITY 101 IT WOULDNT HAVE HAPPENED END OF Dont get back 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 5, 2020 Author Share Posted January 5, 2020 16 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: What has your point got to do with my opinion? Answer this question - why was Pinmedown given the luxury of being the last horse in the gates? Hint: It wasn't being vetted. Oh f me... I told you to STOP The Starter takes care of one Half the Field...the Assistant the other Both this and the April case were 'last one ups'...drawing the outside...Scooter starting in the middle to outer NOTHING to do with special requests or luxury Hint...don't get back 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 5, 2020 Share Posted January 5, 2020 35 minutes ago, Thomass said: The Starter takes care of one Half the Field...the Assistant the other Oh so THEY WERE following the manual! 35 minutes ago, Thomass said: Both this and the April case were 'last one ups'...drawing the outside...Scooter starting in the middle to outer So "Scooter" always takes the "middle to outer" even when he is THE Starter not the Assistant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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