Trials fiasco

[Huey]

8 hours ago, Reefton said:

So do I love the Country tracks but I am just thinking what Messara might say.  I am not advocating the closures myself(God knows - as I said - we would probably be number one in line) but just thinking realistically what he might recommend.

And I appreciate Foxton is apparently a good safe track with a good surface but stand by the comment - the RSDF paying a portion for gates and or plastic running rails for a trials venue is a waste of industry money.  Especially when they flat refused (on Moncur's deliberately misleading advice)  to help with ours.

I think simply taking away your date is how they will do it.  Again I am not advocating it I am just being realistic.  All the social media talk in the world will not make a difference - Winston will listen to his cronies in the game and to Messara and Winston's cronies are not country racing types.  NZ First has already shown with the Taranaki gas thing and the way they have stood by while Eugenie Sage sets up to destroy what is left of the West Coast mining industry that his allegiance to rural NZ only goes so far(about as far as Shane Jones hoped for electorate extends).

And given how these clubs have meekly altered their constitutions to give NZTR control of the assets if they fold a clever bureaucrat(if there is such a thing),  when tasked with finding the dosh for your all weathers, will soon set his or her eyes on those country venues and their assets. 

My track is self sustaining yes(though I must admit in the interests of fairness that the Reefton Trotting Club  guys have accessed that RSDF(without our knowledge I might add even though the course is half ours) for projects they have undertaken in the last year or two - nothing to do with the track mind you) 

   

They hang on the notion that under the Racing Act the governing bodies control the assets of the Club if it folds don't they?  And NZTR insisting that the Club constitutions be changed to reflect that  will reinforce the thinking.  Insofar as I am aware we (the Reefton Jockey Club) are the only Club to have told Moncur to get stuffed.  That was covered well and truly a couple of years back on Race Cafe.

I agree 100% giving money to the big clubs is akin to pissing it up against the wall(history has proven that time and time again) but in this game my opinion doesn't count. 

Incidentally isn't it nostalgic to have a Molloy stirring everyone up?  Just like the good old days.

I know of a few clubs who haven't altered their constitutions with regards to NZTR, I can't see how taking a few race dates away from smaller venues even if it means killing them off is going to have any positive impact on the industry, but like you I won't have a say and like most things with NZ racing the same guys who've been sending the sport into oblivion will be the same guys put on a pedestal as the orchestrators  saving it and that gives me little hope.

I'm all for Foxton coming back on line , but I fail to understand why they are the chosen ones when there are plenty of alternative venues that would have got things up and running alot quicker than your lot Curious.

[curious]

Chosen ones? By whom?

[Reefton]

52 minutes ago, curious said:

Chosen ones? By whom?

Moncur of course.  He was a prick to everyone else but you lot seem to be the golden boys.

Can I just clarify - are you Leggy?

[curious]

Yep.

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, curious said:

Yep.

thanks

[Reefton]

3 hours ago, curious said:

I might add that the FRC has not changed its constitution. In fact I pointed out to NZTR that the request to do so was pointless and the Bell Gully opinion supporting that was in direct contradiction to an earlier one from the same outfit addressed to Mr. Moncur which just happened to have fallen into my mail box. What would be the point in doing so anyway? In the event of the club winding up, a 2/3 majority of members can amend the constitution however they wish with respect to distribution of assets. Remember that the Racing Act can not override the provisions of any other Act.

If your club decided to tell Moncur to get stuffed, then you probably deserve what you got. Did you reapply for a grant after the first decline? Foxton had to.

First the Club didn't decide - I did and second telling him to get stuffed(clearly not in so many words) came long after he told whoppers to the RSDF about the need for new starting gates on the West Coast.  And even if it had come before it is no excuse for telling untruths.  Of course it may not have been intentional it may have been incompetent(and boy that adds up!)

Moncur instituted a succession of bumbling efforts to do with NZ Racing and cost us on more than one occasion(most of which I have mentioned over and over on RC).  Typical bloke in a situation where someone else is paying the bill.

When we got refused we simply reverted to what I usually find is the best option - if you want the job done do the bloody thing yourself.  Little Campbell was most surprised when he was told the gates were on the way.  No bludging on the Coast!

[Ashoka]

Reefton,

Clearly what you and your Club did was based on blatant self-interest. Why did you not do what you have suggested that Foxton do...just roll over and die?

All the best.

Ashoka

[Reefton]

2 hours ago, Ashoka said:

Reefton,

Clearly what you and your Club did was based on blatant self-interest. Why did you not do what you have suggested that Foxton do...just roll over and die?

All the best.

Ashoka

what are you talking about?

I am not suggesting Foxton roll over and die I am saying that the spending of industry money on non racing venues is wasteful.  Despite a heap of talk about how good a course it is and how important ti is to the industry insofar as I know there is no sign of racing recommencing.

As far as Reefton rolling over and dying well your see we are made of sterner stuff.  We (and that includes all the Coast) shrugged our shoulders and got on with it, brought the gates ourselves and even assembled them - the Simtrack bloke reckoned he had never had an assembly go so smoothly as it did with the Reefton committee.

And what did little Campbell say when he found out we had paid the deposit 'oh you will be able to get your deposit back'.  We're buying them we said whatever you lot think(because relying on anyone else to provide us with starting gates was bloody hopeless). 

Everyone does things out of self interest - it is human nature so I am not sure what you mean by that silly little comment   

And at the end of the day we didn't tell lies.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Reefton

[Reefton]

7 hours ago, Huey said:

I know of a few clubs who haven't altered their constitutions with regards to NZTR, I can't see how taking a few race dates away from smaller venues even if it means killing them off is going to have any positive impact on the industry, but like you I won't have a say and like most things with NZ racing the same guys who've been sending the sport into oblivion will be the same guys put on a pedestal as the orchestrators  saving it and that gives me little hope.

I'm all for Foxton coming back on line , but I fail to understand why they are the chosen ones when there are plenty of alternative venues that would have got things up and running alot quicker than your lot Curious.

That's fair comment - how long since those fires and what progress getting the race dates back?

[Reefton]

8 hours ago, mardigras said:

NZ Racing needs to spend money on infrastructure. Given Reefton's thinking, they couldn't put money into building a new track since it doesn't have any race dates - even though putting money into Foxton is a cheaper and more sensible idea. The stakes might be stuffed but not half as stuffed as the tracks.

Foxton is not the answer to the serious issues in NZ racing any more than Reefton is.

Getting racing closer to the population is the only way the global NZ industry is going to advance

[Ashoka]

Reefton,

My comment was sarcastic in that I was pointing out your hypocrisy over your own perceived interests and the interests of others. Stirring, if you can call it that, is not the only characteristic that the Molloy's share, evidently.

Regards.

Ashoka

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Reefton said:

Foxton is not the answer to the serious issues in NZ racing any more than Reefton is.

Getting racing closer to the population is the only way the global NZ industry is going to advance

I don't disagree with your comments but closing down lots of race courses isn't the answer either when our major courses are stuffed.  

[mardigras]

2 hours ago, Reefton said:

Getting racing closer to the population is the only way the global NZ industry is going to advance

Couldn't disagree more. Proximity of people to racing in NZ will have and does have no impact. Ask yourself, why do NZers bets more on Australian racing when they are a lot further away from it.

[Reefton]

20 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I don't disagree with your comments but closing down lots of race courses isn't the answer either when our major courses are stuffed.  

I'm not advocating closing down lots of racecourses(despite everyone here appearing to believe I am).  I agree they should stay open BUT ........

I am surmising that is what Messara will recommend.  

Virtually every high profile NZ racing person is calling for it(Tony Pike being the latest example, Gary Chittick tried it years ago) and if Messara recommends all weather tracks and Winston tells his officials to do it how are they going to fund it?  It would be suicide for the government to fund these things while Health Education and law and order are under funded so where will Allen or his successor look for funds? Well ask Winston to reinforce the law so the assets of current participants(read small Clubs) can be accessed.  The government clearly doesn't give a s**t about rural NZ so who is going to stand up to these guys?

If Messara doesn't suggest something radical I will be astounded.  It might be in the form of reducing funding to small clubs drastically for instance  - who knows but at the moment there is not enough money to go around so who is the easy target?  There is not going to be funds coming from Government nor a decrease in the duty the TAB pays so  where oh where is the money coming from?

I do not want it to happen but I can see it happening whatever he(JM) did in NSW.

If however it rescues the industry the NZ industry I can live with it.  Pretty soon we will have a heap of racecourses with nothing to race on them the way it is going so what benefit will that be? 

 

 

[mardigras]

Why couldn't he simply tell NZ that the industry is too big for itself. Cut the races, not necessarily the tracks. NZ gallops is not sufficiently large racing wise to operate with anywhere near 3000 races sustainably - certainly at this point in time. They want to keep all the racing, have all the stakes and yet have no interest to fund it.It wouldn't matter if there was only 5 tracks. There would still be no money for the races.

Edited May 21, 2018 by mardigras

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, Reefton said:

I'm not advocating closing down lots of racecourses(despite everyone here appearing to believe I am).  I agree they should stay open BUT ........

I am surmising that is what Messara will recommend.  

Virtually every high profile NZ racing person is calling for it(Tony Pike being the latest example, Gary Chittick tried it years ago) and if Messara recommends all weather tracks and Winston tells his officials to do it how are they going to fund it?  It would be suicide for the government to fund these things while Health Education and law and order are under funded so where will Allen or his successor look for funds? Well ask Winston to reinforce the law so the assets of current participants(read small Clubs) can be accessed.  The government clearly doesn't give a s**t about rural NZ so who is going to stand up to these guys?

If Messara doesn't suggest something radical I will be astounded.  It might be in the form of reducing funding to small clubs drastically for instance  - who knows but at the moment there is not enough money to go around so who is the easy target?  There is not going to be funds coming from Government nor a decrease in the duty the TAB pays so  where oh where is the money coming from?

I do not want it to happen but I can see it happening whatever he(JM) did in NSW.

If however it rescues the industry the NZ industry I can live with it.  Pretty soon we will have a heap of racecourses with nothing to race on them the way it is going so what benefit will that be? 

 

 

Even if you proportioned the NZRB reserves as per the Racing Act 18 months ago you would have had enough funding to initiate the development of all weather tracks.  Unfortunately that money has mostly gone down the stakes gurgler.  At the current burn rate there will be nothing left in 18 months.  Closing racecourses won't liberate vast amounts of capital.  

Shifting race dates away from small clubs to bigger clubs doesn't increase the total stake pool nor increase the number of races or meetings so return to the industry doesn't change.  Moving race days to already under stress tracks will raise the risk of abandonments.  I doubt Te Rapa can cope with much more for example.  BTW a stupid decision to shift Ellerslie race days there while the track is being worked on.

Another problem is with how the stakes are distributed - the stake structure is too top heavy and generally those big stakes end up in the same big stables.  In my opinion flatten the structure, take a bit from the top and increase those at the bottom.  It won't reduce the quality of the fields in those big races.  In fact it is noticeable that while increasing the stakes at the top end we are seeing quality dropping.

Feed the grass roots first.

 

[Reefton]

2 minutes ago, mardigras said:

Why couldn't he simply tell NZ that the industry is too big for itself. Cut the races, not necessarily the tracks. NZ gallops is not sufficiently large racing wise to operate with anywhere near 3000 races sustainably - certainly at this point in time. They want to keep all the racing, have all the stakes and yet have no interest to fund it.

On the face of it fair comment but from a Club's perspective it costs, even on our low budget/cost model, $25000 minimum to run a meeting. So if say you cut the eight races to six you increase the cost from $3k approx per race to $4k approx. So run fewer racedays? Well which courses lose a day or days?

[mardigras]

5 minutes ago, Reefton said:

On the face of it fair comment but from a Club's perspective it costs, even on our low budget/cost model, $25000 minimum to run a meeting. So if say you cut the eight races to six you increase the cost from $3k approx per race to $4k approx. So run fewer racedays? Well which courses lose a day or days?

Cut 1000 races from the calendar. 2 meetings on Saturday remain. One Wednesday and one on another day depending on time of year. Cut the big tracks primarily. Cut a lot of the larger stakes as chief suggests (the bigger clubs don't want to run that many races with lower stakes anyway so they will happy to forego those dates.). Smaller clubs still get dates. Still run 8 - 9 races. Schedule racing based on availability. Freeing up overuse of tracks. Attempt to schedule to obtain competition for spots in races. Improving event quality. Better quality, on better conditioned tracks - better interest. Less cost due to less race days.

Edited May 21, 2018 by mardigras

[curious]

You'd probably remove them from the tracks that are currently stuffed and can't cope with the increased load of race days they now have. This would allow resting of tracks for major refurbishments  and in regions like the coast, say rest one track each season on a cyclical basis. Would that work?

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, curious said:

You'd probably remove them from the tracks that are currently stuffed and can't cope with the increased load of race days they now have. This would allow resting of tracks for major refurbishments  and in regions like the coast, say rest one track each season on a cyclical basis. Would that work?

That has been my thoughts for quite some time.  A bit like rotational farming - rest and refurbish so many paddocks per year.  I believe if we close tracks by agreement or foul means without some planning then we will make the situation worse.

 

[curious]

3 hours ago, Reefton said:

I am not suggesting Foxton roll over and die I am saying that the spending of industry money on non racing venues is wasteful.  Despite a heap of talk about how good a course it is and how important ti is to the industry insofar as I know there is no sign of racing recommencing.

 

Firstly, it's likely that the track will be ready for racing this year. Replacing the rail was a requirement for that. Renovating the stand, upgrading jockey rooms, providing stipes and JCA rooms, increasing public facilities, toilets etc. also required. Consent applications for that project are in process. Funding is there. The old tea room building has already been renovated and painted. The AGM was held there last year. The old tote building is being converted to an arts centre. Certainly nothing much had happened between the fires and a couple of years ago. The current committee is on the job. Have a look at the facebook page if you want to catch up or spend 20 bucks to join the club and receive the newsletter.

On your first comment, the RSDF is NOT industry money. It's taxpayer money devoted to health and safety and animal welfare. If you want to target industry money being wasted, have a look at the depletion of RB reserves at a rate of $15-20m a year being wasted on stakes totally irresponsibly with the blessing of all the codes, not a 100k grant to a community club courtesy of the taxpayer.

Edited May 21, 2018 by curious

[Freda]

It's just so bloody refreshing to read sense instead of rubbish....thanks fellas. 

[Newmarket]

Xmas At The Races. 

When this first started, I thought it would be a flop, I’ve changed my mind bigtime. 

I know many people who have had Xmas work functions, family or groups just meeting up, I have not heard anything negative from anybody. 

Would be great to see a jackpot run on it, just like the old days. If nobody picked it on the day, it would roll over to next Xmas meeting. 

I suppose the only thing holding something like this back, is the ageing jetbet system. 

If the nz tab offered an option that overseas agencies couldn’t, this would be a way of luring back punters on course. Start off with $100k, that would see a bit of interest, what do you think?

[Turny]

I am hopeful that Messara will force Management to listen and act on the bodies that currently seem to be ignored  - a genuine cohesive approach to righting the ills

I have a dream .....

Tom

[mardigras]

7 minutes ago, Turny said:

I am hopeful that Messara will force Management to listen and act on the bodies that currently seem to be ignored  - a genuine cohesive approach to righting the ills

I have a dream .....

Tom

who are the 'bodies that currently seem to be ignored' Turny? And what ills are you referring to?