Turny Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Advocating the inverted triangle - info from the bottom up not the top down - culture The bodies could be Trainers, Jockeys, stable hands, Punters, Owners, TAB patrons, Racecourse attendees etc etc - none listens to these groups For me races should be run from 1pm to 4pm - 8 races 25 minutes apart - no way would I go for an 11.30 start and 5.00 finish - I gave grandkids who play cricket and hockey in the morning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 1 hour ago, mardigras said: Cut 1000 races from the calendar. 2 meetings on Saturday remain. One Wednesday and one on another day depending on time of year. Cut the big tracks primarily. Cut a lot of the larger stakes as chief suggests (the bigger clubs don't want to run that many races with lower stakes anyway so they will happy to forego those dates.). Smaller clubs still get dates. Still run 8 - 9 races. Schedule racing based on availability. Freeing up overuse of tracks. Attempt to schedule to obtain competition for spots in races. Improving event quality. Better quality, on better conditioned tracks - better interest. Less cost due to less race days. 100% right. It's what been needed all along, why run Industry dates at Feature/Prem venues makes absolutely no sense to me, they do this then complain the tracks stuffed but have available venues for Industry days which in reality are races for TV if you like so the stands and facilities don't really matter. Less is more at the bigger venues , utilise them for feature and Premier days only, perhaps then they won't needed so many staff. I still can't get my head around how shutting down courses that are self sustainable is a good idea in anyone eyes, it reduces the contribution of product,community interest and involvement, the development of future horse men and horse women and once its gone the possibility of it being a backup venue no longer exists, not to mention I can't see it being easy to sell up courses. Whatever Mesarra recommends they need to be very careful racing is in a very precarious position in this country they already alienated thousands via the freeview deal, teletext, touchtone etc do they really want to risk further damage in the communities? 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 49 minutes ago, Turny said: Advocating the inverted triangle - info from the bottom up not the top down - culture The bodies could be Trainers, Jockeys, stable hands, Punters, Owners, TAB patrons, Racecourse attendees etc etc - none listens to these groups For me races should be run from 1pm to 4pm - 8 races 25 minutes apart - no way would I go for an 11.30 start and 5.00 finish - I gave grandkids who play cricket and hockey in the morning You can always watch a race on your phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turny Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Only punt on course - like to see what I punt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Reefton said: First the Club didn't decide - I did and second telling him to get stuffed(clearly not in so many words) came long after he told whoppers to the RSDF about the need for new starting gates on the West Coast. And even if it had come before it is no excuse for telling untruths. Of course it may not have been intentional it may have been incompetent(and boy that adds up!) Moncur instituted a succession of bumbling efforts to do with NZ Racing and cost us on more than one occasion(most of which I have mentioned over and over on RC). Typical bloke in a situation where someone else is paying the bill. When we got refused we simply reverted to what I usually find is the best option - if you want the job done do the bloody thing yourself. Little Campbell was most surprised when he was told the gates were on the way. No bludging on the Coast! Yeahh, well that's just a stupid knee jerk reaction imo. So, you didn't bother to reapply and make a stronger case, or explore other funding options. Lotteries, COGS, pokie funds etc.? You just decided unilaterally to expend industry funds without any effort to find other funding sources? And you claim to be concerned about wastage of industry funds? Edited May 21, 2018 by curious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 2 hours ago, curious said: Yeahh, well that's just a stupid knee jerk reaction imo. So, you didn't bother to reapply and make a stronger case, or explore other funding options. Lotteries, COGS, pokie funds etc.? You just decided unilaterally to expend industry funds without any effort to find other funding sources? And you claim to be concerned about wastage of industry funds? Why would we reapply? So Moncur could tell some more lies to stymie what we wanted to do? In any case the gates were virtually on the boat by the stage we got turned down and we could not wait (bearing in mind these were the four Coast Clubs not just us) And we did not use Industry funds we used our own funds plus pokie money that we were able to access. Foxton are the ones who have blown industry funds, fully supported by NZTR. Anyway the point is I am not and never have suggested that we should have got the money. I don't care about not getting the money but I do care about Moncur saying ' we (NZTR) arranged for the old Canterbury gates to be available to the West Coast clubs' . What utter crap - we (ie the Greymouth President Jill Bennington) did that deal with Riccarton ourselves. And then we had the scenario(after two or three years of using them) of three weeks out from our racemeeting being told they were not available and having to hire at extremely short notice the Ashburton/Timaru ones at a huge cost. Hence our immediate decision that never again would we rely on outsiders for vital raceday equipment and arranged to buy our own. If he had simply said 'we do not believe that using the RSDF to buy gates for the West Coast is wise use of industry resources' one would have accepted it but he chose to imply that NZTR had arranged an alternative which they clearly had not (despite an assurance from a Board Member of NZTR at the time that they would make sure we had gates when they stopped us using our old manual gates). What I am saying that using RSDF money to fund a non racing venue is a blatant waste of industry money. You might be sentimental in thinking Foxton will be used again for racing but I cannot recall too many courses being resurrected in my time and see no reason why this one will be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 7 hours ago, Ashoka said: Reefton, My comment was sarcastic in that I was pointing out your hypocrisy over your own perceived interests and the interests of others. Stirring, if you can call it that, is not the only characteristic that the Molloy's share, evidently. Regards. Ashoka As I said I never suggested it was unfair Foxton getting money and us not - I do not believe we deserved it nor ever had a hope of getting it but it was the BS spun to deny us that annoyed me. What I have made clear over and over is that using industry money to fund non venues is stupidity. But then it is the hierarchy of NZ racing we are talking about here so stupidity is par for the course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 5 hours ago, mardigras said: Couldn't disagree more. Proximity of people to racing in NZ will have and does have no impact. Ask yourself, why do NZers bets more on Australian racing when they are a lot further away from it. Well can you tell me why the Aussie's run their Group Ones at Flemington and Randwick not Birdsville and Benalla? After all if the proximity to people is not important in racing the first Tuesday might as well be run in Alice Springs might it not? We might run the NZ Derby as the second leg at Reefton next year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashoka Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Reefton, What appears to be stupidity is, in fact, the naked face of corruption. You and "Curious" are on the same side, fighting the good fight against seemingly insurmountable odds. The song "High Hopes" is one of my all-time favourites. I have always, still do and always will...back the ram. "Whoops! There goes a billion kilowatt dam". Long may you run. Ashoka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Reefton said: Well can you tell me why the Aussie's run their Group Ones at Flemington and Randwick not Birdsville and Benalla? Because they are proximal to where the Group One horses are trained? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 4 hours ago, Reefton said: After all if the proximity to people is not important in racing the first Tuesday might as well be run in Alice Springs might it not? We might run the NZ Derby as the second leg at Reefton next year? And you'd recommend moving the Irish Derby from the Curragh (where the horses are) to Leopardstown, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 7 hours ago, Reefton said: Well can you tell me why the Aussie's run their Group Ones at Flemington and Randwick not Birdsville and Benalla? After all if the proximity to people is not important in racing the first Tuesday might as well be run in Alice Springs might it not? We might run the NZ Derby as the second leg at Reefton next year? As curious states, appropriate races should be run where the appropriate horses are. Not where the people are. As that makes sense from an industry logistics point of view. From a revenue generating point of view, the location should be again where the appropriate horses are for the level of race and ideally the appropriate racing surface for the race - in order to maximise the level of field and the level of punter interest from anywhere. Perhaps you think people in NSW don't bet on the Melbourne Cup given it is run around 900km from Sydney. The only other time location becomes important is due to 'event' status where hospitality becomes a major factor and even then, it isn't always the case. Ever been to Warrnambool in May? That's only 270km from Melbourne. And in NZ, we have very few with any status. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newmarket Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 10 hours ago, curious said: Yeahh, well that's just a stupid knee jerk reaction imo. So, you didn't bother to reapply and make a stronger case, or explore other funding options. Lotteries, COGS, pokie funds etc.? You just decided unilaterally to expend industry funds without any effort to find other funding sources? And you claim to be concerned about wastage of industry funds? Nasty reply to Reefton? You need to chill a bit, you are now on the premier racing site, so no need to put people down. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 5 hours ago, curious said: And you'd recommend moving the Irish Derby from the Curragh (where the horses are) to Leopardstown, right? 2 hours ago, mardigras said: As curious states, appropriate races should be run where the appropriate horses are. Not where the people are. As that makes sense from an industry logistics point of view. From a revenue generating point of view, the location should be again where the appropriate horses are for the level of race and ideally the appropriate racing surface for the race - in order to maximise the level of field and the level of punter interest from anywhere. Perhaps you think people in NSW don't bet on the Melbourne Cup given it is run around 900km from Sydney. The only other time location becomes important is due to 'event' status where hospitality becomes a major factor and even then, it isn't always the case. Ever been to Warrnambool in May? That's only 270km from Melbourne. And in NZ, we have very few with any status. Breaking news people - these two are going to shift the Melbourne Cup to Ballydoyle Because that is where the horses are! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 6 hours ago, Ashoka said: Reefton, What appears to be stupidity is, in fact, the naked face of corruption. You and "Curious" are on the same side, fighting the good fight against seemingly insurmountable odds. The song "High Hopes" is one of my all-time favourites. I have always, still do and always will...back the ram. "Whoops! There goes a billion kilowatt dam". Long may you run. Ashoka I am sick of the fight Ashoka(like I am sick of the fight against idiot councils and their imbecile schemes, the idiot IRD with their unworkable new rules and every other idiot - invariably government or public funded - authority that seeks to poke their nose into everyone's business and make everything hard) Without wanting to sound nasty the sooner the industry in NZ collapses and I can just(no longer having to be loyal) take a share in a Darby or Dynamic syndications nag in Aussie the better. No more caring about the future of the course, the club or the people involved. Better courses better jockeys better TV coverage(even if its career highlight will probably be plodding into a distant third in a three horse maiden at Mt Gambier!) And thats why in my view the NZ industry(read Clubs) should set up their own gaming agency in the Cook Islands. Run it on a shoestring, slash takeouts and remove the fat cats. Sure you may have an NZ tax issue with what is called the controlled foreign companies regime but that would not be insurmountable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Newmarket said: Nasty reply to Reefton? You need to chill a bit, you are now on the premier racing site, so no need to put people down. Bearing in mind who my family are NM whatever insult(which I missed to be fair) Curious offered would rate about .00001 on a scale of one to ten. I don't need Curious(or his friend Moncur) to tell me anything about how to run a club or obtain funding. Anyway this argument is going nowhere - good luck to Curious, Foxton and anyone else who can get their snout in the trough of industry funds. Far better a set of new gates and plastic running rail on a trials course than a range of new pie warmers and first class flights to Hong Kong for a nice junket. Edited May 21, 2018 by Reefton 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 I think we are all on the same page in this thread - primarily a passion for an industry that has been so mismanaged that if it wasn't fortunate to have a monopoly (less so now) then it would have died years ago. I agree with both Reefton's and Curious's approaches to funding - each to their own - they are both passionate about their racing clubs and have put hours into them purely because they love the sport. They haven't been paid exorbitant wages for doing so and no doubt have spent some of their own funds to help their clubs be it the cost of a scrubbing brush or a shovel. Reefton does raise a good issue though where in the past there have clearly been funding decisions made for reasons other than good economic sense. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashoka Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Reefton, I understand and empathise with your expressed attitude towards the "good fight". I also know that, while it may become dispiriting at times, you will not cease to fight it. Nor will I, and, I am sure, nor will others who frequent this website. You are not alone and never will be. The seeming arguments that arise between like-minded souls are, in reality, merely quibbles and will be seen as such in the fullness of time. All the best. Ashoka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 7 hours ago, Reefton said: Breaking news people - these two are going to shift the Melbourne Cup to Ballydoyle Because that is where the horses are! I am starting to see why you didn't get very far with Moncur if the level of logic applied to your application in any way resembles the level of logic you have applied here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefton Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 1 hour ago, mardigras said: I am starting to see why you didn't get very far with Moncur if the level of logic applied to your application in any way resembles the level of logic you have applied here. I said I am sick of this but I will respond to that. You bleated on and on about racing taking place where the horses are hence my comment about running the Melbourne Cup somewhere in Europe. If you want to make statements do not be suprised when people take them literally. You are clearly a little confused about what it is you are promoting. Secondly re Moncur well if you worship the ground he works on I think it might say something about you. You will remember he once left NZTR to run the TRAC group - turned into a disaster and he skulked back to NZTR. I do not like to really crucify the guy but when he makes a galah of himself time and time and time again one begins to wonder about his competence. AND after all he did comment about the 'wankers on race cafe' so sauce for the goose. Incidentally I had no part in the application for the RSDF money and no interaction with him in regards it so my attitude to him played no part in that outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 11 hours ago, Newmarket said: Nasty reply to Reefton? You need to chill a bit, you are now on the premier racing site, so no need to put people down. Nah. Wasn't putting a person down, just a stupid idea or behaviour. Reefton needs to swallow those sour grapes. The Molloy boys can take a bit of light-hearted ribbing anyway and usually give it back with at least equal force. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 2 minutes ago, Reefton said: I said I am sick of this but I will respond to that. You bleated on and on about racing taking place where the horses are hence my comment about running the Melbourne Cup somewhere in Europe. If you want to make statements do not be suprised when people take them literally. You are clearly a little confused about what it is you are promoting. Secondly re Moncur well if you worship the ground he works on I think it might say something about you. You will remember he once left NZTR to run the TRAC group - turned into a disaster and he skulked back to NZTR. I do not like to really crucify the guy but when he makes a galah of himself time and time and time again one begins to wonder about his competence. AND after all he did comment about the 'wankers on race cafe' so sauce for the goose. Incidentally I had no part in the application for the RSDF money and no interaction with him in regards it so my attitude to him played no part in that outcome. I didn't bleat on and on at all. You did suggest that racing needed to be close to the population. Then made some astronomical leap about races being shifted internationally. Maybe when you said for NZ to progress it needs to be close to the population we are meant to take it literally and you were wanting to move NZ racing to Shanghai. That is how bad your logic is. Move on given you are sick of this. I am not confused about what I am promoting. I am promoting less racing in NZ. And most of that reduction from the tracks such as Ellerslie, Te Rapa, Awapuni, Trentham. I don't know Moncur and have no wish to. I haven''t promoted anything in relation to Moncur so I have no idea where you got any idea about what I think of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 9 hours ago, Reefton said: Bearing in mind who my family are NM whatever insult(which I missed to be fair) Curious offered would rate about .00001 on a scale of one to ten. I don't need Curious(or his friend Moncur) to tell me anything about how to run a club or obtain funding. Anyway this argument is going nowhere - good luck to Curious, Foxton and anyone else who can get their snout in the trough of industry funds. Far better a set of new gates and plastic running rail on a trials course than a range of new pie warmers and first class flights to Hong Kong for a nice junket. Given I've met Moncur briefly on one occasion, I'm not sure why you would think he is my friend. I barely know him. You seem to have had a much stronger relationship with the man. Anyway, keep coming up with crazy ideas. Maybe move the Kentucky Derby from Louisville to New York. Seven times the population there you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hesi Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 On 21/05/2018 at 7:15 PM, Newmarket said: Xmas At The Races. When this first started, I thought it would be a flop, I’ve changed my mind bigtime. I know many people who have had Xmas work functions, family or groups just meeting up, I have not heard anything negative from anybody. I've mentioned this before, but maybe 4-5 years ago, NZTR or NZRB(can't remember), did some U&A consumer market research on Racing . The only thing that came out positive, was that a Day at the Races was still very well perceived, so the Xmas at the Races, is a step in the right direction, just needs to be expanded about 100 times I hope this is something Messara hits on, you can't grow a business without a substantial marketing and promotion platform/budget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 51 minutes ago, hesi said: I've mentioned this before, but maybe 4-5 years ago, NZTR or NZRB(can't remember), did some U&A consumer market research on Racing . The only thing that came out positive, was that a Day at the Races was still very well perceived, so the Xmas at the Races, is a step in the right direction, just needs to be expanded about 100 times I hope this is something Messara hits on, you can't grow a business without a substantial marketing and promotion platform/budget Is Messara still continuing with the job, or have the NZRB cronies run him off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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