mardigras Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 8 hours ago, Murray Fish said: lol! you should be more tolerant and enjoy him sitting at the table! $omeone has to be losing... ? I very much want him to keep punting. The industry needs him. My tolerance ends when he suggests what he does can help others, the industry doesn't need that sort of negative influence. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 On 10/01/2020 at 9:26 PM, mardigras said: No one is asking much of you here. Apparently this information is of such value to punters. Why is it that no one seems to be able to even give a theoretical example of how this will benefit punters. I'm sorry our education system failed you in the wop wops... I'll cut to the chase so even an imbecile can understand... A Jock drawn on the rails in an H11 Whanganui bog hasn't got a gyrocopter rotor on his helmet to make a mid race move over to the 2/3width fast lane...ok... ...the other Jocks are already over there This applies to every other track which is 'OFF' on the rail as well... ipso f in facto... ...unless a Jock gets real lucky...their chances are correspondingly DECREASED and there's no correlation with finding 'Value' 'investing' on your advice to back rails runners... ... a 'punter' who wants to encourage such an 'investment strategy' is pulling the pud ....and wanting to make a profit from someone else's misfortune is disgraceful fraudulent behaviour...as is Fake News You're a Fake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, Thomass said: A Jock drawn on the rails in an H11 Whanganui bog hasn't got a gyrocopter rotor on his helmet to make a mid race move over to the 2/3width fast lane...ok... Does this only apply if it is a H11 not a H10? I just had a quick squiz at the results for Wanganui last September which was run on a H10. Half the winners draw 3 or better. Barrier 3 got 2 wins, 2 got 1 and 1 got 1. In the race that barrier 1 won the horse that was 2nd draw 2. As for the rest of the races it doesn't seem that the inside barrier affected any of the chances of the favourites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Thomass said: I'll cut to the chase so even an imbecile can understand... A Jock drawn on the rails in an H11 Whanganui bog hasn't got a gyrocopter rotor on his helmet to make a mid race move over to the 2/3width fast lane...ok... ...the other Jocks are already over there I'm confident that if all the other jocks are already over there, there isn't anything stopping the horse on the rails going over there too. 12 minutes ago, Thomass said: ...unless a Jock gets real lucky...their chances are correspondingly DECREASED Only if the jockey doesn't know it's off. Otherwise, they wouldn't be there. Luck isn't a factor. 12 minutes ago, Thomass said: there's no correlation with finding 'Value' 'investing' on your advice to back rails runners... ... a 'punter' who wants to encourage such an 'investment strategy' is pulling the pud I'm not advising anyone to do such a thing. It's what I do, as that is where I believe I will find the best value. Due to all the sheep that think like you affecting the price of runners. I certainly aren't expecting my horse to be on the rails the whole way. I expect the jockey will put the horse into the position that gives the horse the best chance of winning. Edited January 11, 2020 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 The info is only useful if the jockeys don't know it, like in ATA's example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 3 minutes ago, mardigras said: I'm confident that if all the other jocks are already over there, there isn't anything stopping the horse on the rails going over there too. Normally it is the horse in front that dictates where the field runs. So if you draw inside then I would have thought that you have a good chance of getting to the front and dictating where the field runs. If you are on locked in on the fence (this happens on Fast 1, Good 2, Good 3....well any track condition) you are more likely to get off the rail if it is a H10 or H11 or the inside running is off because all the jockeys are looking for the "better" ground. Generally on a Good 2 or 3 and you are locked 3 back on the inner then you have issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 25 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Does this only apply if it is a H11 not a H10? I just had a quick squiz at the results for Wanganui last September which was run on a H10. Half the winners draw 3 or better. Barrier 3 got 2 wins, 2 got 1 and 1 got 1. In the race that barrier 1 won the horse that was 2nd draw 2. As for the rest of the races it doesn't seem that the inside barrier affected any of the chances of the favourites. Fair suk mate..wtf do you waste my time so often?? It depends on what the Pen. Reading indicates of course... That meeting may have been on fresh ground for a Stakes Race?? This is just such basic shit... And why the Breeders Cup Committee decided to provide readings for their Premier meeting... ...we now have 6 Courses with EXACTLY this tech... Just provide PUNTERS with this info Whats so hard about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 6 minutes ago, Thomass said: And why the Breeders Cup Committee decided to provide readings for their Premier meeting... Because they have punters interested in their racing and this is a small extra piece of information, which in the scheme of their racing, is a small cost. 7 minutes ago, Thomass said: Just provide PUNTERS with this info Whats so hard about that? It will cost (even if only a little), and last time I looked, there wasn't a lot of money around. And it's highly likely that it wouldn't generate any extra revenue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 11, 2020 Share Posted January 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, Thomass said: Fair suk mate..wtf do you waste my time so often?? Pottle kettle. 6 minutes ago, Thomass said: That meeting may have been on fresh ground for a Stakes Race?? Can you give us a race meeting where your theory applies? 8 minutes ago, Thomass said: And why the Breeders Cup Committee decided to provide readings for their Premier meeting... To further confuse punters like you. Regardless of whether the information is provided or not you haven't shown us how you would use it. The thin outline of methodology that you have posted so far is flawed. 12 minutes ago, Thomass said: ...we now have 6 Courses with EXACTLY this tech... Just provide PUNTERS with this info Whats so hard about that? Nothing hard about it at all. But what's the point to the punter? The Jockey's are the only ones who can effectively use this information to improve their horse's chances. The punter can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 21 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Pottle kettle. Can you give us a race meeting where your theory applies? YES, YOUR EXAMPLE...6 M of FRESH GROUND FROM THE PREVIOUS MEETING...GOLD To further confuse punters like you. Regardless of whether the information is provided or not you haven't shown us how you would use it. The thin outline of methodology that you have posted so far is flawed. YEP, BASIC SHIT LIKE REDUCING THE CHANCES ON HORSES DRAWN CLOSE IN..ANALYSIS OF SAID NEDDYS AND THEIR USUAL PATTERN Nothing hard about it at all. But what's the point to the punter? The Jockey's are the only ones who can effectively use this information to improve their horse's chances. The punter can't. WHY ARE YOU REPEATING YOURSELF? Those horses drawn close in on an overwatered inside will either have to use their energy up to get handy and attempt to get to the outside... ...or drop back...and face a wall of horses already in the faster going.. TOTALLY impossible on an H 11 Whanganui for example Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Thomaas none of what you have written can be predicted, controlled or measured by the punter by any additional information from multiple measurements provided by a super duper hi-tech penetrometer . For a start it would take years of data to get any sort of relevant correlation that would aid in prediction. Therefore it is a complete waste of time for the punter in determining chance a horses relative chance. At the end of the day it the data would only give you something else to gripe about and more excuses to explain away your losses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 The new tech is called the 'Going Stick'... Each reading taken is automatically recorded and can easily be downloaded to a website... ...just as the Breeders Cup Committee did.... The off rail at Awapuni would have shown a difference on the rail cf the middle... Its that simple... Why can't you get your noggin around this?? Obviously Punters can "predict, control and measure" this information to a certain % of chance... ...just as they do in analysing overall Form... Metro Courses in Australia do it now with a colour coded guide.... Now please..just stop your nonsense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 Looks more like a pogo stick to me. The only advantage I see is that it takes two different measurements - penetration and shear and records the information electronically. I don't have any issue with that if it gives a more accurate reading of the racing surface. However it would need to be calibrated on a course by course basis as every course has a different soil structure. The issue I have is you suggesting that knowing if there is a fast lane or a slow lane improves your chances of winning a bet. You have no control over how the information is used by the Jockey so the improvement in your chances are nil. But you can't seem to get "your noggin around that." Also how would you determine if there was a significant difference between readings of the inside and outside e.g. would a 0.5 difference be significant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 33 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Looks more like a pogo stick to me. The only advantage I see is that it takes two different measurements - penetration and shear and records the information electronically. I don't have any issue with that if it gives a more accurate reading of the racing surface. However it would need to be calibrated on a course by course basis as every course has a different soil structure. The issue I have is you suggesting that knowing if there is a fast lane or a slow lane improves your chances of winning a bet. You have no control over how the information is used by the Jockey so the improvement in your chances are nil. But you can't seem to get "your noggin around that." Also how would you determine if there was a significant difference between readings of the inside and outside e.g. would a 0.5 difference be significant? Good work..you've finally done some 'research'... Old codgers like you feel the need to denigrate tech...because you're afraid of it and want to hide behind smack talk.... Keep up...the Pen's are calibrated to each track so no diff... wrt to "you can't work out" Ive already told you...go back and re read But it has to do with %'s...just like 'form analysis'....ffs As for slight and greater differences... Its for the punter to decide...any information that provides Punters with greater clarity stalls any poor ignorami from going to Bet Sports... ...but is it any wonder with this on offer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 (edited) So we will be getting the readings around the entire circumference of the track, every how often, 1m apart?. And how far apart across the track, every 30cm? For a 30m wide track of 2000m circumference, that's only around 200,000 readings for the punters to chew on. Can't wait. The info will just result in losing punters wanting something better since what they have isn't enough. And they'll blame the lack of (useless) information for their own inadequacies. Sound familiar? Edited January 12, 2020 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, mardigras said: So we will be getting the readings around the entire circumference of the track, every how often, 1m apart?. And how far apart across the track, every 30cm? LOL. The recommended sampling rate is.....wait for it....THIRTY samples...yes - 30! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 What's more they cost $8,000 each and $1,000 a year to service. Plus apparently they aren't perfect... . . . but it's not perfect Nobody pretends the GoingStick is perfect. “People will have the odd criticism,” says Cooper. “I certainly wouldn't ever want to be putting out a GoingStick reading on its own; I think we need the verbal assessment as well.” He adds: “We certainly haven't got to a situation across all the racecourses across the country where if a course gives out a reading of 7.5, a trainer or an owner can say, 'Ah, that means good ground'; in fact it could actually mean a very different going description between one course and another. Or even at the same track within 24 hours. Look at the example of Chester on June 24-25: on the Friday, the ground was described as 'good to soft, good in places' with a GoingStick reading of 6.8. The next day, the official description had firmed up to 'good, good to soft in places' – yet the GoingStick read 6.5. “It can be quite user-specific – it depends how forcefully an individual pushes it in, so there can be a bit of a variation,” admits Cooper. “Some people are quite light-handed and some are a bit more heavy-handed.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 2 minutes ago, mardigras said: So we will be getting the readings around the entire circumference of the track, every how often, 1m apart?. And how far apart across the track, every 30cm? For a 30m wide track of 2000m circumference, that's only around 200,000 readings for the punters to chew on. Can't wait. It's 1,3 4.5M now...30 readings Im sure they can work something out...being relatively intelligent peeps... Although the 'intelligence' quotient maybe not that high... ...when they do that on a Whanganui H11... ...yet come down the outside rail...for almost the entire journey THE most important stats are the STRAIGHT though.... ANYTHING worse than D6...do the entire straight every 3M across the width... 10 extra readings requiring the Track Manager to walk and extra 10M x 4 or 5 mins Should stop them eating any less doughboys at morning tea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 And after getting those 30 readings, and still losing. You'll be wanting more readings. And readings around the corners and the back straight. Because horses drawn wide are often racing wider in those parts as well. Is that an advantage or a disadvantage. And you'll want to know to try and work out why you keep losing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: LOL. The recommended sampling rate is.....wait for it....THIRTY samples...yes - 30! Cant you read...oh that's right we've established that... It 30 NOW you imbecile! So exactly the same time... Currently the 6 Track Managers with these devices are in constant contact and calibrating their thrusting techniques via video... Like Susan of Herne Bay used to say... "the thrusting technique needs formulating to prevent any video from being misunderstood" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 12, 2020 Share Posted January 12, 2020 4 minutes ago, Thomass said: Cant you read...oh that's right we've established that... It 30 NOW you imbecile! So exactly the same time.. You're the imbecile! I'm not questioning the time but the SAMPLE SIZE! To accurately give YOU the information that you want would require a lot more than 30 samples! By the time they'd finished on a sunny day in summer the stats would be worth less than they were....although less than zero....???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: You're the imbecile! I'm not questioning the time but the SAMPLE SIZE! To accurately give YOU the information that you want would require a lot more than 30 samples! By the time they'd finished on a sunny day in summer the stats would be worth less than they were....although less than zero....???? Rubbish...read your post again is my advice... No 30's fine...why would they need to increase the number taken ffs? As for Summer 'watering' and FAKE readings... One only needs to look at Matamata last month to know they haven't a clue Took a reading at 6.30 am H 10 Twilight...did they take another reading?? Of course not...dickheads let's suggest the 5 Rail readings up the straight just to check it hadn't changed over 9 Hours later shall we? Race 1 and Jocks were coming back saying S7 FFS...and they wonder why Punters have buggered off to bet on Genie Bouchard....putting on her tennis floppies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, Thomass said: FFS...and they wonder why Punters have buggered off Nothing to do with no GoingStick readings I suggest. More to do with a low quality and over priced product. If this data is so important to you how much are you willing to pay for it? Given it costs to purchase and maintain the equipment, process and store the data and publish it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 And HK Punters know much they've pooed...24/7 Including LASIX admin...oh that's right Waller wouldn't last 5 minutes up there.... Hold it....stupid question I know But if they're taking readings...why aren't they giving this to PUNTERS who run the game?... No extra costs...push the button... Automatically downloads to ANY website... Just ask Breeders Cup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted January 13, 2020 Share Posted January 13, 2020 (edited) Because everything comes at a cost. And I think the HK racing industry can afford it. If NZ racing actually made any money, maybe they could consider it. They don't. It would sit on the list of things to do as a 'nice to have' at best. Edited January 13, 2020 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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