mardigras Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, All The Aces said: But if humans can't travel between islands then that becomes a different issue. What issue is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 8 minutes ago, All The Aces said: Both Karaka Million races are Listed and classified as black type on the pedigree page. Not exactly. Yes, they get black type but are catalogued as (R) Listed. R for restricted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All The Aces Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 22 minutes ago, curious said: Not exactly. Yes, they get black type but are catalogued as (R) Listed. R for restricted. Correct. Still listed as black type on the pedigree page. RP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All The Aces Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, mardigras said: What issue is that? Think about it. Anyway your objection to the shift North this season is negated if horses can travel and it would certainly significantly reduce the number of horses having to travel who will be competing in those races on figures already presented. My reasoning on supporting the shift is not based on sentiment as opposed to a few others on here. Edited April 19, 2020 by All The Aces Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, All The Aces said: Think about it. Anyway your objection to the shift North this season is negated if horses can travel and it would certainly significantly reduce the number of horses having to travel who will be competing in those races on figures already presented. I'm not objecting to the races being shifted north. I'm saying if they are being shifted because of Covid-19, there is no need to run them. You are simply not understanding why I am saying it shouldn't be run. It is 100% because of the supposed reason behind shifting the races. Covid-19. If they are shifting them BECAUSE of Covid-19, then that is suggestive of there being issues with horses be able to compete. And they want the best horses they can to be able to compete. If this is the reason, clearly the races should not be black type (which sort of nullifies the need to move them). If they are shifting them supposedly BECAUSE of Covid-19, and as you suggest, any horse can travel - then Covid-19 doesn't bring in any additional reason to shift the races than what has existed in prior years and likely future years, costs. (So no reason at all related to Covid-19). So is the possible shift because of Covid-19 - or another reason. you seem to have al the answers. As to your think about it comment. I have. And you have demonstrated an inability to show why they should shift up north outside of the reasons that have applied for the last 15 years, and will likely apply for the next 15 years. So please tell us - what are the Covid-19 reasons that support the shift. Edited April 19, 2020 by mardigras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 19 minutes ago, mardigras said: So please tell us - what are the Covid-19 reasons that support the shift. There are none. And given we are more than 6 months away from that meeting it is reasonable to expect or at least hope that there will not be any substantive travel restrictions by then. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All The Aces Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 (edited) 36 minutes ago, mardigras said: I'm not objecting to the races being shifted north. I'm saying if they are being shifted because of Covid-19, there is no need to run them. You are simply not understanding why I am saying it shouldn't be run. It is 100% because of the supposed reason behind shifting the races. Covid-19. If they are shifting them BECAUSE of Covid-19, then that is suggestive of there being issues with horses be able to compete. And they want the best horses they can to be able to compete. If this is the reason, clearly the races should not be black type (which sort of nullifies the need to move them). If they are shifting them supposedly BECAUSE of Covid-19, and as you suggest, any horse can travel - then Covid-19 doesn't bring in any additional reason to shift the races than what has existed in prior years and likely future years, costs. (So no reason at all related to Covid-19). So is the possible shift because of Covid-19 - or another reason. you seem to have al the answers. As to your think about it comment. I have. And you have demonstrated an inability to show why they should shift up north outside of the reasons that have applied for the last 15 years, and will likely apply for the next 15 years. So please tell us - what are the Covid-19 reasons that support the shift. As previously pointed out overwhelmingly it is North Island based horses competing in both races. They will have their regular riders particularly the better horses and with travel restrictions placed on jockeys ie if they are not able to ride in both islands this will cause a real problem. Freda put it succinctly earlier in this thread. "And, if there is still restrictions on riders moving out of their district, they sure as hell aren't going to put Canterbury apprentices up." Freda is right, the standard of riding in the SI is average compared to the NI pool. If you had for example Opie or other top NI riders riding and winning on a 3yo you sure as hell are not wanting a SI apprentice up. Being practical, what do think that the actual owners of the horses would want or don't they count? Edited April 19, 2020 by All The Aces Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 22 minutes ago, All The Aces said: As previously pointed out overwhelmingly it is North Island based horses competing in both races So basically your whole argument is based on "there are mostly North Island horses in the Guineas races therefore they should be run in the North Island." You are probably going to take that one step further using your logic and say they should be held in the Waikato. Frankly it is that approach that has stuffed NZ racing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 23 minutes ago, All The Aces said: As previously pointed out overwhelmingly it is North Island based horses competing in both races. They will have their regular riders particularly the better horses and with travel restrictions placed on jockeys ie if they are not able to ride in both islands this will cause a real problem. Freda put it succinctly earlier in this thread. "And, if there is still restrictions on riders moving out of their district, they sure as hell aren't going to put Canterbury apprentices up." Freda is right, the standard of riding in the SI is average compared to the NI pool. If you had for example Opie or other top NI riders riding and winning on a 3yo you sure as hell are not wanting a SI apprentice up. Thanks for confirming there are no real Covid-19 reasons to shift the race. You just mentioned subjective elements. You lot supporting this are so insular and elitist, it's hardly surprising NZ racing is in the state it is. 25 minutes ago, All The Aces said: Being practical, what do think that the actual owners of the horses would want or don't they count? Brilliant - what do you think the actual owners of Karaka Million horses would want. I think it is you that needs to take your elitist hat off, and actually think about things for once. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All The Aces Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 (edited) Well it's bloody obvious what the owners of the Karaka Millions horses want hence being purchased at Karaka. Out of interest how many horses do you currently race (ie before lockdown) and will you be racing any 3yos this season? Edited April 19, 2020 by All The Aces Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 7 minutes ago, All The Aces said: Well it's bloody obvious what the owners of the Karaka Millions horses want hence being purchased at Karaka. Aside from the fact most of the purchasers don't end up the sole owners of the horses what the purchasers want is raffle ticket in the Karaka Millions sweepstake!!!!!! A million dollar race funded from raffle tickets and strangely enough by NZTR. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 1 minute ago, All The Aces said: Well it's bloody obvious what the owners of the Karaka Millions horses want hence being purchased at Karaka. Which highlights just how stupid your previous statement was. Next time, think about the obvious answer before asking something ridiculous. 1 minute ago, All The Aces said: Out of interest how many horses do you currently race and will you be racing any 3yos this season? It's irrelevant, but I have raced 3yos and I've never raced them in the South Island. But I would if I thought any were worthy of a Guineas start. You're simply not getting it, so like your mate - you have to deflect to irrelevant things. You've been found out with showing you have no reasons to shift these races other than you think they should shift the races because of representation. Next time, just say that. Maybe they should shift the Melbourne Cup to the UK - since so many of the runners are from there. Save a lot of transport costs, quarantining etc. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Diceman's Been Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 Nobody would describe me as insular and elitist, I can assure you. In fact my bank manager, my ex-wife, the four subsequent girlfriends and my kids told me I was a bloody idiot thinking I could make a quid owning race horses. I still hold the faith, but I sincerely fear for the industry. I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before, but it's rooted, good and proper. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All The Aces Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, mardigras said: Which highlights just how stupid your previous statement was. Next time, think about the obvious answer before asking something ridiculous. It's irrelevant, but I have raced 3yos and I've never raced them in the South Island. But I would if I thought any were worthy of a Guineas start. You're simply not getting it, so like your mate - you have to deflect to irrelevant things. You've been found out with showing you have no reasons to shift these races other than you think they should shift the races because of representation. Next time, just say that. Maybe they should shift the Melbourne Cup to the UK - since so many of the runners are from there. Save a lot of transport costs, quarantining etc. It is relevant. Therefore you have no vested interest in either race being run and as a result no qualms about them not being run as you have mentioned a few times. Whether they run or not is of no importance to you , unlike those with rising 3yos who have been bred or purchased to race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 7 minutes ago, The Diceman's Been said: I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before, but it's rooted, good and proper. I hope you feel better for coming clean and saying that out loud. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 1 minute ago, All The Aces said: It is relevant. Therefore you have no vested interest in either race being run and as a result no qualms about them not being run as you have mentioned a few times. Whether they run or not is of no importance to you , unlike those with rising 3yos who have been bred or purchased to race. Wait ... so now your rationale is because you have a vested interest in them being moved? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, All The Aces said: Whether they run or not is of no importance to you , unlike those with rising 3yos who have been bred or purchased to race. I thought we were arguing about WHERE they would be run. BTW I won't have a horse racing in the Melbourne Cup this year but it is important to me that it is run in Melbourne this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All The Aces Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: I thought we were arguing about WHERE they would be run. BTW I won't have a horse racing in the Melbourne Cup this year but it is important to me that it is run in Melbourne this year. That may be so Chief but obviously both Guineas being run is of no importance to Mardi. He has advocated not running them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, All The Aces said: That may be so Chief but obviously both Guineas being run is of no importance to Mardi. He has advocated not running them. Unless I've missed something I don't believe Mardigras said that. He has advocated not running them if there are restrictions on horse transportation. His rationale is similar to why he believes the Karaka Millions shouldn't be Group races as entry is not available to all in the age group. I concur. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardigras Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, All The Aces said: It is relevant. Therefore you have no vested interest in either race being run and as a result no qualms about them not being run as you have mentioned a few times. Whether they run or not is of no importance to you , unlike those with rising 3yos who have been bred or purchased to race. No - your question was and still is irrelevant. You are letting what limited capacity you have get clouded by your own needs. This is the very essence of NZ racings problems. Always thinking of themselves individually. Insular in so many ways. Classic. As I say, people that know me, will tell you I will make decisions irrespective of what they do for me - often to my own detriment. You clearly are incapable of doing that. Sad, but true. And it is somewhat important to me whether they run or not - but far more important to the industry - that they don't run if they are restricted. They reflect a classification system. If they run without unrestricted entry (other than the terms of the race itself), then that means the classification loses value. That's important to me since I may buy horses in the future, but more important to the industry in maintaining integrity in that classification system. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 1 hour ago, All The Aces said: As previously pointed out overwhelmingly it is North Island based horses competing in both races. They will have their regular riders particularly the better horses and with travel restrictions placed on jockeys ie if they are not able to ride in both islands this will cause a real problem. Freda put it succinctly earlier in this thread. "And, if there is still restrictions on riders moving out of their district, they sure as hell aren't going to put Canterbury apprentices up." Freda is right, the standard of riding in the SI is average compared to the NI pool. If you had for example Opie or other top NI riders riding and winning on a 3yo you sure as hell are not wanting a SI apprentice up. Being practical, what do think that the actual owners of the horses would want or don't they count? Because of covid 19 the VRC is transferring the Melbourne cup to England as that is where the majority of runners are now coming from . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All The Aces Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 45 minutes ago, curious said: Wait ... so now your rationale is because you have a vested interest in them being moved? How so? It actually makes no difference to me personally where they are run. But I can certainly understand the rationale behind the shift to bring them North. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted April 19, 2020 Author Share Posted April 19, 2020 7 hours ago, All The Aces said: How so? It actually makes no difference to me personally where they are run. But I can certainly understand the rationale behind the shift to bring them North. So what is the rationale as you understand it? That the races will be held nearer where more of the likely runners are trained? I get that but what else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 The way I see it - rationale is , that since Sir P. pushed for the shift north some years ago, vested N.I interests have wanted that to happen. Covid-19 gives them more chance to finally succeed. Logic doesn't come into things, only shortsightedness that has dogged this industry. Mardi and others are right, if there are to be restrictions on horse transport, then those races should not be run. As has been stated repeatedly ( do people have problems with reading/comprehension?) pattern racing exists to frank the quality of the racing crop, it is the arbiter of the excellence of the breed. If it cannot be carried out with full opportunity for all, then it cannot, by definition, hold black type status. My comment about S.I apprentices should be taken to reflect the stupidity of messing around with that status. If Australian riders can shift out of their area with proper isolation procedures, then NZ riders should be able to as well. Unless, of course, ours are sillier and/ or too selfish to make those choices. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 10 minutes ago, Freda said: If Australian riders can shift out of their area with proper isolation procedures, then NZ riders should be able to as well. Unless, of course, ours are sillier and/ or too selfish to make those choices. You may well find that if our NZ industry leadership doesn't lead with decisiveness then our elite jockeys, few that they are, will travel West instead of South. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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