Nathan Purdon off to Aussie

[Rangatira]

On 27/03/2021 at 7:31 AM, JJ Flash said:

Slipper today worth A$3.5 mio, Big day coming up in Sydney 5 Grp 1s

loose change for the brodster

[Rangatira]

36 minutes ago, MarkyMark said:

I cant understand the rationale of you and Brodie on this topic, FFS its meant to be a professional sport, so it should be treated as such.

you should not spend too much time seeking rationale from the brodster

[Chief Stipe]

18 minutes ago, MarkyMark said:

just about anyone can drive a vehicle.

That is debatable.  Arguably anyone can drive a race horse.  Only two controls to worry about.

19 minutes ago, MarkyMark said:

Then driving a vehicle is different to being a professionally paid sportsmen, who is in a sulky steering a horse, in which statistically the risks are higher.  It also requires far more skill to steer a horse than drive a car additionally.

Statistically I would suggest it is safer to drive a harness horse if you have been trained to do so.  For a start all the horses are travelling in the same direction!  Not ALL harness drivers are "professionally paid horsemen" just as all vehicle drivers are not professionally paid either.  So this reasoning is irrelevant.

21 minutes ago, MarkyMark said:

Are you defending his actions?  Are you saying it would be ok for drivers and jockeys alike to turn up on course with a blood alcohol reading?  

No I'm not defending Blair Orange's actions nor the actions of Chris Johnson either even though the latter requires a damn sight more skill standing in stirrups on top of a horse.  At least the harness guys have training wheels!

The point is Orange could legally drive at 100km/h a high powered motor vehicle to the races but can't drive a race horse!  It is one of those rules that is a nonsense (a bit like whip rules).  So either have the limit at zero or the same for driving a motor vehicle.

But if you have it at zero then you further inhibit the attraction of harness racing as a career.  If the current was so important why don't they test ALL drivers before the start of race one EVERY race day?  

[JJ Flash]

1 hour ago, MarkyMark said:

FFS its meant to be a professional sport, so it should be treated as such.

Alas that is proving to be not the case judging by all the charges in the last few months.

[JJ Flash]

36 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

loose change for the brodster

He hates Gallops for some reason only known to him. Mind you TB's is a big buck game to play so that might count him out as he likes to keep control of things🤔

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, MarkyMark said:

FFS its meant to be a professional sport, so it should be treated as such.

It isn't a professional sport.  Never has and never will be in New Zealand.  About time everyone in the industry, particularly the administrators, accepted that fact.

There are very few that make their sole living from training and/or driving harness horses.  Certainly nowhere near what most administrators and RIU employees earn.

[Gammalite]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

It isn't a professional sport.  Never has and never will be in New Zealand.  About time everyone in the industry, particularly the administrators, accepted that fact.

That's not true Chief . any sport where you are 'Paid to Perform' is a professional sport. 

You have Usually completed (sometimes years) of preparing , qualifying and licensing to get to that level. (of being paid to do your sport)

All the drivers , Every race ,are PAID . It's a professional service they are offering . (to the clubs, owners, trainers, etc)

Trainers are paid by owners. Club officials, race day staff all paid. A VERY professional Industry if you ask me.

The Non-professional ones you talk of, are the owners and Punters. They do it for the love of it. 

[Chief Stipe]

17 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

That's not true Chief . any sport where you are 'Paid to Perform' is a professional sport. 

Not all participants are paid and not all make a living from the game.

Compare that to a Super Rugby or NRL team.  All the players are well paid and earning a living.

It is very easy to paint Harness Racing as something it isn't and expect the same level of standards from  ALL participants.

You forget about the many owner/trainer/driver's in the game and the amateur licensed participants.

Do you see anyone in a truly professional sport pitching up and not getting paid?

Making Harness Racing a truly professional sport would be the final nail.

[Gammalite]

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Not all participants are paid and not all make a living from the game.

Compare that to a Super Rugby or NRL team.  All the players are well paid and earning a living.

It is very easy to paint Harness Racing as something it isn't and expect the same level of standards from  ALL participants.

You forget about the many owner/trainer/driver's in the game and the amateur licensed participants.

Do you see anyone in a truly professional sport pitching up and not getting paid?

Making Harness Racing a truly professional sport would be the final nail.

Don't have to make a living out it to be professional. People do other stuff apart from their sport sometimes. work, sponser stuff ,etc.

Doesn't mean they can rock up and Not Be Professional (Paid to Perform) on raceday.

An Amateur licensed person is still PAID to perform by the owner. ? And in a race an owner and a Punter are RELYING on the trainers and drivers to Perform art a PROFESSIONAL LEVEL financially. (Blair !! lol.......)  So is way more important than you are saying For All the Participants to Perform at a Professional level . amateur license included. follow the rules. and then there's safety too.!

(yes all sports have volunteers) but doubt they could get a run in the Public eye during a meeting or event at the forefront.

[Gammalite]

21 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Making Harness Racing a truly professional sport would be the final nail.

My argument was about on raceday mainly Chief. I would be sure in NZ even all the strappers have to be licensed? therefore you would think Paid ? (if not, why not?) and performing a professional duty. they would have to have some 'knowledge of horse' to be licensed and performing their professional duty , you would hope lol....... 

You may be arguing away from the raceday track ? I really do think the times of your owners 'turning up ' at the weekend for a drive of their horse, or that sort of thing are gone. (Insurance purposes, etc, should be licensed persons handling the horses at home these days, Stewards have Property Checks in OZ to check all of these sort of things , (Probably looking for DQ people which have been found out on many occasion too) Better to follow the Professional rules and enjoy the Sport !!!

[MarkyMark]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

That is debatable.  Arguably anyone can drive a race horse.  Only two controls to worry about.

Statistically I would suggest it is safer to drive a harness horse if you have been trained to do so.  For a start all the horses are travelling in the same direction!  Not ALL harness drivers are "professionally paid horsemen" just as all vehicle drivers are not professionally paid either.  So this reasoning is irrelevant.

No I'm not defending Blair Orange's actions nor the actions of Chris Johnson either even though the latter requires a damn sight more skill standing in stirrups on top of a horse.  At least the harness guys have training wheels!

The point is Orange could legally drive at 100km/h a high powered motor vehicle to the races but can't drive a race horse!  It is one of those rules that is a nonsense (a bit like whip rules).  So either have the limit at zero or the same for driving a motor vehicle.

But if you have it at zero then you further inhibit the attraction of harness racing as a career.  If the current was so important why don't they test ALL drivers before the start of race one EVERY race day?  

Chief,

Your being silly now.  Anyone can drive a horse? Theoretically yes, but under race conditions and to perform? obviously not.  And there are not only 2 controls.  You have a variety of other factors at play during a race, which not just anyone can do.  I cant say ive ever been in a sulky, but ive been in a saddle, not anyone can do it, or atleast properly.  

Pro rata, there are more accidents in a sulky.  And again your being silly mate, all drivers are paid.  It is not iirelevant.  Thy are professionally paid sports men and women, obviously some are paid more than others, based on merit like any sport.  To suggest they are not professional, i would suggest to those that take their occupation seriously would be insulting. 

they dont test all drivers same way they dont drug test all drivers.  Dont be silly Chief, you know why, ofcourse it comes down to practicality and resources, and past behavior and indiscretions.   Using Jason Waddell as an example, based on past behaviour it is reasonable to think he would be prone to more testing than perhaps another, just common sense.

You cant use the same brush for the rules allowed to the general public, and that of a driver, who is paid to perform to the best of his ability in steering his drive.  Turning up to a race meeting, with alcohol in his blood is not in line with what should be expected of both a driver and the countrys leading driver.

It is a professional sport, with the odd person who acts like a coy boy.  However i disagree, it is about time the code was treated as such, perhaps then this industry, would then have a better reputation, better participation confidence, and we may actually make some progress to diminishing the regular indescrtions this indusry is becoming known for.

Whilst you are entitled to your opinion, your response dissapoints me, and i think it is attitudes like this which are stopping this industry moving forward with the times, and getting its house in order.

[Chief Stipe]

Explain this Gammalite and MarkyMark - Why are the rules applied differently I.e. inconsistently between some participants based on their differences in expertise and degree of professional ranking?

[MarkyMark]

32 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Not all participants are paid and not all make a living from the game.

Compare that to a Super Rugby or NRL team.  All the players are well paid and earning a living.

It is very easy to paint Harness Racing as something it isn't and expect the same level of standards from  ALL participants.

You forget about the many owner/trainer/driver's in the game and the amateur licensed participants.

Do you see anyone in a truly professional sport pitching up and not getting paid?

Making Harness Racing a truly professional sport would be the final nail.

thats a nonsense, netball in NZ, they are paid bugger all, and many work addition jobs.  But none the less are still considered professional athletes. you are clutching at straws

[MarkyMark]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Explain this Gammalite and MarkyMark - Why are the rules applied differently I.e. inconsistently between some participants based on their differences in expertise and degree of professional ranking?

in relation to what exactly.

all sports codes treat participants unequally.  NRL with major sydney and melbourne clubs.

premier league with manchester untied and city compared to say a West Brom

TB - Te Akau arguably get perhaps moe favourable treatment given their position

In sydney, before wallers dominance, Gai got whatever she wanted

Sport is also a pyramid, and those at the top are normally there by merit, not always, and those at the top normally get favourable terms if that is what you are trying to ask

[MarkyMark]

7 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

My argument was about on raceday mainly Chief. I would be sure in NZ even all the strappers have to be licensed? therefore you would think Paid ? (if not, why not?) and performing a professional duty. they would have to have some 'knowledge of horse' to be licensed and performing their professional duty , you would hope lol....... 

You may be arguing away from the raceday track ? I really do think the times of your owners 'turning up ' at the weekend for a drive of their horse, or that sort of thing are gone. (Insurance purposes, etc, should be licensed persons handling the horses at home these days, Stewards have Property Checks in OZ to check all of these sort of things , (Probably looking for DQ people which have been found out on many occasion too) Better to follow the Professional rules and enjoy the Sport !!!

yes, all strappers have to be licensed, they have a special license.  Same as a stable hand, they have a special license.  Well this is the case for TB, not sure about Harness

[Chief Stipe]

Not all Drivers are paid.  Take D D McCormick.  Are you suggesting he pays himself when he drives his three horses in work?

http://jca.org.nz/non-race-day-hearings/appeal-d-d-mccormick-v-riu-reasons-for-decision-of-appeals-tribunal-dated-23-march-2021-chair-hon-j-w-gendall-qc

 

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, MarkyMark said:

yes, all strappers have to be licensed, they have a special license.  Same as a stable hand, they have a special license.  Well this is the case for TB, not sure about Harness

They may be licensed but many if not most are not paid. 

[Gammalite]

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Explain this Gammalite and MarkyMark - Why are the rules applied differently I.e. inconsistently between some participants based on their differences in expertise and degree of professional ranking?

The rules of racing Apply to everyone Chief. as far as raceday presentation , race rules , etc. All drivers are paid the same , based on finishing position. and stake of the race.

You are possibly right and there are some amateur situations going on at home in the stables. But Raceday . you know the rules.

and a Professional display expected by one and all (stewards, clubs, punters , even your rivals !!!)

[Chief Stipe]

Was this driver treated differently?

IDEAL GRACE - junior driver T Bamford was questioned regarding the manner he drove shortly after the fallen horse incident when despite being unaffected he restrained his horse, causing it to lose touch with the field until near the 800 metres. Mr Bamford (assisted by M Purvis) explained that in a recent race the event had been called off due to a fallen runner and as there had been a lot of yelling he was unsure as to whether this race had also been called off before realising all other runners were continuing and so urged his runner. After considering Mr Bamford's explanation and noting the exceptional circumstances and his significant inexperience Stewards reminded him of his obligations under Rule 869(3)(g).

[MarkyMark]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Not all Drivers are paid.  Take D D McCormick.  Are you suggesting he pays himself when he drives his three horses in work?

http://jca.org.nz/non-race-day-hearings/appeal-d-d-mccormick-v-riu-reasons-for-decision-of-appeals-tribunal-dated-23-march-2021-chair-hon-j-w-gendall-qc

g 

again your clutching at straws. In harness is there an appearance fee when racing? he is obviously then working for himself, and takes a different risk.  But the reward for him is obviously more significant if he can get his horse to win or place.  

[Gammalite]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

They may be licensed but many if not most are not paid. 

Well that Sucks !!! surely they're nearly all stable staff and getting Paid. Yeah the stewards would DEMAND the handler would have to be competent and registered . can't have just anyone handling the horses raceday. would be chaos !

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

The rules of racing Apply to everyone Chief. as far as raceday presentation , race rules , etc. All drivers are paid the same , based on finishing position. and stake of the race.

Nope the rules aren't applied the same.

How many times have ALL the drivers been breath tested on raceday?

[MarkyMark]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

Was this driver treated differently?

IDEAL GRACE - junior driver T Bamford was questioned regarding the manner he drove shortly after the fallen horse incident when despite being unaffected he restrained his horse, causing it to lose touch with the field until near the 800 metres. Mr Bamford (assisted by M Purvis) explained that in a recent race the event had been called off due to a fallen runner and as there had been a lot of yelling he was unsure as to whether this race had also been called off before realising all other runners were continuing and so urged his runner. After considering Mr Bamford's explanation and noting the exceptional circumstances and his significant inexperience Stewards reminded him of his obligations under Rule 869(3)(g).

you are digressing. And this is a different issue.  And there have been regular complaints I have heard of, Ive spoken with Tim Vince regarding this issue, Amateurs being unfairly treated for a similar issue to that of a non amateur.  Thats something else alltogether and not related to this discussion

[MarkyMark]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

Nope the rules aren't applied the same.

How many times have ALL the drivers been breath tested on raceday?

theres a common sense reason to that Chief, and its application of this is quite consistent across all the codes.

dont do a Brodie Chief, your better than that

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, MarkyMark said:

again your clutching at straws. In harness is there an appearance fee when racing? he is obviously then working for himself, and takes a different risk.  But the reward for him is obviously more significant if he can get his horse to win or place.  

What's the reward got to do with it?  This is an example of something that is quite common in harness racing.  Been like it for decades.