nomates Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: But geldings should be? Are you sexist? 18 hours ago, nomates said: Doh , what part of " no horses ' should be hit that much did you not read . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: But those aren't the rules nor is disqualification a penalty. Yet again , what part of " IMO the rules should be changed " did you not read . And i have not stated that i am againat whips , there should be balanced limits as to how many times a horses may be struck , that's for a bigger debate as to how many . BUT 23 strikes on any horse in the final 300 or so mtrs is more than excessive . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 2 hours ago, Thomass said: Well it certainly helped...especially the illegal consecutive strike momentum gain just before the 100m...while Opee was winding into a final thrashing Grylls was obeying the rules... Well that is subjective , the beauty of opinions , we happen to differ on this one , but feel free to continue to try and prove you are correct and that i am wrong , as i am sure you will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 23 minutes ago, nomates said: BUT 23 strikes on any horse in the final 300 or so mtrs is more than excessive . But did you know there were 23 strikes before I posted the head-on and Thomas deigned to count them? Also the strikes up until the 100m wouldn't as strong as those in the last 100m. Partly due the close proximity of another horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 21 minutes ago, nomates said: Well that is subjective , the beauty of opinions , we happen to differ on this one , but feel free to continue to try and prove you are correct and that i am wrong , as i am sure you will I would go so far as to say Thomass's "momentum theory" is completely flawed. Just view the sectionals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: But did you know there were 23 strikes before I posted the head-on and Thomas deigned to count them? I did not count the strokes but from watching it live and 40+ years of watching races i thought both riders were excessive in their whip use, whether legal or not , it looked like a bash up to win at all costs , not pretty . This is a subjective opinion based on what i consider appropriate , not trying to leverage my opinion on to anyone else . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 11 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: I would go so far as to say Thomass's "momentum theory" is completely flawed. Just view the sectionals. It's Tommy boys opinion , he can continue to thrash it if he wishes . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 24 minutes ago, nomates said: I did not count the strokes but from watching it live and 40+ years of watching races i thought both riders were excessive in their whip use, whether legal or not , it looked like a bash up to win at all costs , not pretty . This is a subjective opinion based on what i consider appropriate , not trying to leverage my opinion on to anyone else . Fair enough. Still in my opinion you can't label either Jockey a "cheat". They played within the rules and weighed up the reward vs the penalty. Happens in all sport. I'm in danger of being called biased but if I owned Armarelinha I'd be very happy with Bosson's ride. He was caught out wide and about midfield and started his move at the 800m. He had momentum up and put the horse well in the race before the 200m. I've watched this filly several times and she is the type that competes against what she can see. Her view of Needle and Thread was obstructed for a bit and needed a bit more urging. The first two were a level up from the rest and I doubt that the breaking of the rules changed the first two placings. So was the breaking of the rules the nose difference. I don't think so. If Armarelinha was sitting on Needle and Threads rump over the last 800m she would have won by 4 lengths. At the end of the day whipping only works if you have a horse that has something to give. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 9, 2021 Author Share Posted March 9, 2021 2 hours ago, nomates said: Well that is subjective , the beauty of opinions , we happen to differ on this one , but feel free to continue to try and prove you are correct and that i am wrong , as i am sure you will No problems...of course it's IMO...everything pretty much is I was merely pointing to the pro form analyst whose algorithms indicated a 3L advantage the more a Whip was in use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 9, 2021 Author Share Posted March 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Fair enough. Still in my opinion you can't label either Jockey a "cheat". They played within the rules and weighed up the reward vs the penalty. Happens in all sport. I'm in danger of being called biased but if I owned Armarelinha I'd be very happy with Bosson's ride. He was caught out wide and about midfield and started his move at the 800m. He had momentum up and put the horse well in the race before the 200m. I've watched this filly several times and she is the type that competes against what she can see. Her view of Needle and Thread was obstructed for a bit and needed a bit more urging. The first two were a level up from the rest and I doubt that the breaking of the rules changed the first two placings. So was the breaking of the rules the nose difference. I don't think so. If Armarelinha was sitting on Needle and Threads rump over the last 800m she would have won by 4 lengths. At the end of the day whipping only works if you have a horse that has something to give. WTF?? Of course it wasn't within the Rules...ok? Thats why he got suspended for chuck stakes... Simply bizarre last statement too...you say A was going slower the last 100M Imagine if Opee stops thrashing her... It loses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Fair enough. Still in my opinion you can't label either Jockey a "cheat". They played within the rules and weighed up the reward vs the penalty. Happens in all sport. I'm in danger of being called biased but if I owned Armarelinha I'd be very happy with Bosson's ride. He was caught out wide and about midfield and started his move at the 800m. He had momentum up and put the horse well in the race before the 200m. I've watched this filly several times and she is the type that competes against what she can see. Her view of Needle and Thread was obstructed for a bit and needed a bit more urging. The first two were a level up from the rest and I doubt that the breaking of the rules changed the first two placings. So was the breaking of the rules the nose difference. I don't think so. If Armarelinha was sitting on Needle and Threads rump over the last 800m she would have won by 4 lengths. At the end of the day whipping only works if you have a horse that has something to give. I agree , calling them cheats is a bit strong , they didn't overdoit from the mindset of cheating , more a heat of battle thing . But as i've stated it's not a good look for a sport trying to build ownership numbers and get younger generations involved , the younger set are a " Woke " generation , as much as i despise the word and intention of it the reality is we have to work within their parameters and not force our mindset on them . I am sure there is a middle ground . As for armalelinha , well in IMO she is 4/5 lengths ahead of the rest , simply the track levelled the playing field , my real worry is that could have bottomed her , time will tell . As for your last line , well for me it only works if the horse wants to give something , in my experience i have known plenty to throw it away completely if given too much . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 5 minutes ago, Thomass said: Imagine if Opee stops thrashing her... It loses! Imagine if both riders stop thrashing thei horses in the last 100 , the same horse would probably still win , for me it was the better strip that gave her the upper hand in the end , a regular occurance on wet tracks . IMO . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 53 minutes ago, Thomass said: Simply bizarre last statement too...you say A was going slower the last 100M FFS you haven't looked at the sectionals have you? Armarelinha still ran faster than Needle and Threads the last 100m. But Armarelinha had MOMENTUM from the 800m! The fastest last 200m wasn't from the first two horses. I said that. 53 minutes ago, Thomass said: Imagine if Opee stops thrashing her... It loses! I doubt it - do you think Grylls would have stopped riding his horse? Come on you are "NZ's leading tipper" (your Twitter words not mine) - give us an evaluation of Armarelinha's performance? 8th outer, improved wide from the 800m, ran the fastest last 800, 600 and 400m sectionals. Last 200m 0.07 seconds faster than the second horse. Needle and Thread - had the soft trail the whole way - out and kicked on the corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 53 minutes ago, Thomass said: Of course it wasn't within the Rules...ok? Thats why he got suspended for chuck stakes... They played within rules and weighed up the penalty vs the reward. Bit like Richie McCaw - at half way at a ruck do what is the risk vs reward of playing the offside margin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: They played within rules and weighed up the penalty vs the reward. Bit like Richie McCaw - at half way at a ruck do what is the risk vs reward of playing the offside margin? The reward is very good too, (winning the race) I thought both jockeys did what they thought was best to get the best result in the heat of Battle. was a small margin. A rule was broken and a penalty given. I see No problem . Same thing happens with lots of other 'Offences' that can effect the result of a race as well . (not keeping straight , etc) Even if the Thomass is right and the offence is deemed 'Serious enough' to relegate or disqualify because of Whip Overuse or excessive use , WHERE does IT all STOP? What if the rider on the Derby or Auckland Cup winner (or any winner or placegetter) gave his SIXTH WHACK 120m Out ??? that IS breaking the same rule ? Jockey and every Punter in the country looking at slow motion replay, trying to count the whip strikes ??? Jockey insists he was trying to count to five or thought he was at the 100m point. Still have to take the race off him Thomass, as same as Oppie crime. and the Nation in dismay and shock after. VERY very hard to disqualify someone with these dodgy rules . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 9, 2021 Author Share Posted March 9, 2021 23 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Absolute BULLSHIT. Don't you read race sectionals? Armarelinha had the momentum from the 800m running the fastest 200m sectionals of the race bar the LAST 200m! Sectionals have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! If A's slowing a consecutive strike wakes her up even more to go faster while slowing! How can you not get that? Yeah? And the Professor/Scientist you quote writes a research paper saying it makes no DIFFERENCE! That Prof had no Racing experience in how fast a neddy travels like the expert Dan O'Sullivan has....0.5 secs is NOT negligible! Where is the direct quote that I said that? You are crossing the line misquoting. You screen shot a picture of a horse whose identity we have no idea of and assert that Bosson did it. That quote is the overall narrative obviously...and you're on the EXTREME edge of ignorance The screen shot of the welts IS cheating Opee's work...take it from me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 9, 2021 Author Share Posted March 9, 2021 15 hours ago, Gammalite said: The reward is very good too, (winning the race) I thought both jockeys did what they thought was best to get the best result in the heat of Battle. was a small margin. A rule was broken and a penalty given. I see No problem . Same thing happens with lots of other 'Offences' that can effect the result of a race as well . (not keeping straight , etc) Even if the Thomass is right and the offence is deemed 'Serious enough' to relegate or disqualify because of Whip Overuse or excessive use , WHERE does IT all STOP? What if the rider on the Derby or Auckland Cup winner (or any winner or placegetter) gave his SIXTH WHACK 120m Out ??? that IS breaking the same rule ? Jockey and every Punter in the country looking at slow motion replay, trying to count the whip strikes ??? Jockey insists he was trying to count to five or thought he was at the 100m point. Still have to take the race off him Thomass, as same as Oppie crime. and the Nation in dismay and shock after. VERY very hard to disqualify someone with these dodgy rules . Gummy, I'd be heading back to your Thieves on Wheels site if I was you... Clueless is praising you... A horse not keeping a straight line and gaining a winning advantage IS relegated.... EXACTLY the same as Cheating Opee gaining an advantage by dishing out 23 thrashing welts If he can't count to 5 by getting 8 he deserves a Dunces cap..and CHEAT tatted across his noggin...Just as he cheated in the Puke Cup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 35 minutes ago, Thomass said: Sectionals have NOTHING TO DO WITH IT! If A's slowing a consecutive strike wakes her up even more to go faster while slowing! How can you not get that? ??? Can you translate "wakes her up even more to go faster while slowing"? She didn't go faster she maintained the momentum she started from the 800m PRIOR to being whipped. The strikes didn't make her go faster they MAY have kept her going over the last 150m but they certainly didn't make her go faster! That has always been a problem with your punting blue print where you don't understand the concept of ability/performance. 35 minutes ago, Thomass said: That Prof had no Racing experience in how fast a neddy travels like the expert Dan O'Sullivan has....0.5 secs is NOT negligible! Oh I see you just cherry pick whatever supports your narrative. Mmmmm excellent scientific approach. Then data has never been your strong point has it? So the Professor's evidence based research reviewing data from a set of races has not validity because the researcher, in your opinion, "has no racing experience." So when it suits we throw out the evidence based research presumably following a scientific methodology and accept that from a Punting Tipster. Makes sense - yeah na! While we are discussing the Professor shall we discuss some of the flaws in his "whipping causes pain similar to humans" research? There are a number of flaws in his methodology. Basically his research focused on counting the number of nerve endings in the epidermal layers of a horse vs a human. Low and behold he found they were similar in number. So he draw the conclusion if you hit a human with a whip it causes pain then ipso facto it must also hurt a horse to the same level. Now that theory may well be right when both a human and a horse are at rest. But did he test his theory on high performance athletes under physiological stress? NO he didn't. Not that you would understand as I have serious doubts about your understanding of the racehorse physiology but do you know what happens when a horse is racing? It is a bit like a human athlete where all body processes are focused on the core systems i.e. the heart, lungs and muscles. It goes even further with a horse where they have the capability to divert blood away from peripheral systems entirely to the core. Hence why we see frequent problems with EIPH (lung bleeds). Do you think that this process might change the horses ability to feel pain exerted on peripheral surfaces? 35 minutes ago, Thomass said: That quote is the overall narrative obviously...and you're on the EXTREME edge of ignorance The screen shot of the welts IS cheating Opee's work...take it from me Then it is likely to be fiction. BTW I can only count 2 maybe 3 welts - they could actually just be ruffled hair but that aside where are the other 20? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 10 minutes ago, Thomass said: EXACTLY the same as Cheating Opee gaining an advantage by dishing out 23 thrashing welts You don't actually give a shyte about horse pain - it is clear that your entire focus is on being supposedly cheated out of your punting! Not that you gave us any indication of your selections for the race PRIOR to it running. There is no evidence that it made a difference in the first two placing's. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 2 hours ago, Thomass said: Gummy, I'd be heading back to your Thieves on Wheels site if I was you... Clueless is praising you... A horse not keeping a straight line and gaining a winning advantage IS relegated.... EXACTLY the same as Cheating Opee gaining an advantage by dishing out 23 thrashing welts Not quite true Thomass , it takes quite a serious breach to Relegate in a race, more likely a fine or suspension , like Opie got for his offence, would be the penalty. (causing tightening , etc) Horses taking the line of another late in the race might draw a relegation , if costing the other a chance of finishing in a higher position. just as likely to be a horse fault as rider /driver too. Are you Trying to be Clueless ?? Your knowledge seems limited??? so that is not EXACTLY the same at all. Speaking of the sulky, the 2nd leading Trainer in Australia (Jack Butler in QLD) has his terrific young daughter Chloe out suspended for next 2 weeks , from a third whip violation in 50 days is the rule. I would think Chloe could modify her style at being only 20 years of age approx , as Change is/was hard to do for Drivers / Riders that have been in 100's and thousands of races trying their guts out to Win. You calling Opie 'Cheat' is just part of your Modus Operandi. Are you finding it hard to change from it? Bit like Opie finding it hard to change from winning races? Opie has gone around a few times so he KNOWS what is required to Win . and does his absolute Best to achieve it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 15, 2021 Author Share Posted March 15, 2021 Are you still here Gummy? Listen up...DROP the Thieves on Wheels Whip examples before you go.... It has NOTHING to do with Thoroughbreds...ok? Heres more proof Opee is a blatant cheat when the pressure hits the fan... 10 strikes is BLATANT cheating...rubber stamped by two consecutive Whip violations....one 4 in a row.... Only a desperate CHEAT does that and ignores the rules...ok? Following the running of Race 9 (Team Pryor Sotherbys 2100), Information No. A14002 was filed with the Judicial Committee. It was alleged that Mr Bosson used his whip excessively prior to the 100m when riding GONE WEST. Ms Algar showed the film replays and said that the Stewards all agreed that Mr Bosson had hit his horse 10 times prior to the 100m (5 is the limit). In addition he had used the whip consecutively on twooccasions; once 2 strikes in succession and once 4 times in succession. The films confirmed that that was what had occurred. Mr Bosson agreed with the Stewards interpretation of his whip use Decision: Due to the charge being admitted and the film evidence the charge was proved. Submission For Penalty: Mr Jones said that Mr Bosson had breached the Rule only once in the previous 12 months, that being on 2 February 2019 when a fine of $500 was imposed. He added that Mr Bosson had breached twoelements of the Rule by hitting consecutively plus the total number of strikes. Mr Bosson said that his mount was the favourite for the race and is a lazy horse. He said that the way it was travelling between the 600m and 300m it was no chance. He said that he does not have a history of breaching the whip Rule. Reasons For Penalty: The JCA Penalty Guide for 10 strikes has a starting point of 6 riding days suspension. Taking into account Mr Bosson’s record it was considered that a 5 riding day suspension was a condign penalty. Penalty: Mr Bosson’s Jockey’s Licence was suspended from the end of racing on 21 October through to 28 October 2020 (inclusive) (5 Riding Days). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 So based on that Bosson averages about once a year getting pinged for too many strikes of the whip. Mmmmm not tying hard enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 3 hours ago, Thomass said: Are you still here Gummy? Listen up...DROP the Thieves on Wheels Whip examples before you go.... It has NOTHING to do with Thoroughbreds...ok? Heres more proof Opee is a blatant cheat when the pressure hits the fan... 10 strikes is BLATANT cheating...rubber stamped by two consecutive Whip violations....one 4 in a row.... Only a desperate CHEAT does that and ignores the rules...ok? Why do I have to go Tommy Gun ? is it because you couldn't answer my question ?? Which is " If a jockey gives 6 Big whacks before your magical 100m mark, is he/she a Blantant Cheat too?" Picking on your champion jockeys , just pathetic lol...... He Broke a rule (happens to a lot of jockeys) and received a penalty (happens to a lot of jockeys) BECAUSE THEY ARE PERFORMING A VERY HARD TASK IN TRYING TO WIN A HORSE_RACE. something you will never achieve because while too busy hating on everyone. Tommy Gun...... You don't like Harness racing examples, so a Thoroughbred example . How about Michael Walker. Twice (2 x on same horse) fined heavily and/or suspended on Prince of Arran running places in Melbourne Cup's in recent years for Excessive Whip Use, And only before the biggest TV audience of any race in Australasia. Probably a few more than ten strikes too?, 5, 10 ,15, 20 ....wow big difference horse feels?? 2, 4, 6, 8 get a whack, can't wait. So A 'number' makes you a blatant Cheat or Not ? lol......I have to laugh as can think of lot worse that happens than the BIG whip hit COUNT lol......... It just seems so Minor lol..... lucky you had race video so you could count accurately lol............ horse Not able to tell you exact number !!! jockey should pull out calculator to be sure !! What about the Air-swings if he/she misses ??? hahahaa do they count if not enough contact ?? lol...... Whip or NO Whip is Only solution. Blatant Cheat ? or trying to Win a big race ? you choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted March 16, 2021 Author Share Posted March 16, 2021 Of course not.. ...they probably went to school to eat their lunch... ...and Opee definitely comes under that category How can he mistake 5 for 10 and not know what CONSECUTIVE 4 strikes entails? The ONLY explanation was that he BLATANTLY CHEATED on that horse... ...and you conveniently keep forgetting the STATS which state "whipping forces horses to move @3L FASTER" Cheating Opee couldn't help himself...4 times in a year...and BLATANTLY Of course Walker and Cheating Opee should have lost these placings 6 is an error with a suspension...7 a long suspension and fine... 8 is DEFINITELY requiring a DQ Hope that helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 20 minutes ago, Thomass said: ...and you conveniently keep forgetting the STATS which state "whipping forces horses to move @3L FASTER" Wrong. The stats don't show that at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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