MarkyMark Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 9 hours ago, Brodie said: FFS Ranga, Blair could drive with a helluva lot higher reading and still be way better than most drivers out there! well that post must be an early contender for BOAY'S dipstick post for the year. unbelievable. i know why now the tab restricts you. you incompetence and stupidity levels are too much for the tab to deal with. good day 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 12 hours ago, Basil said: Crikey, have I got this right? You think that: • whip rules should not be enforced because drivers find them "difficult" Basil you are very adept at eliciting a completely different meaning from a simple statement. Have you thought of a career in Politics? Or maybe Corporate Spin? With regard to the whip rules what I said was they are impractical, difficult to enforce and a token virtue signal that only opens up the industry to unnecessary scrutiny. Effectively a home goal. Ask yourself how do the Stipes enforce this rule? Do they sit in the "bunker" after each race watching the expensive High Definition video and zoom in on each driver checking their wrist action and counting the number of times the whip strikes the horse or sulky over a distance for the entire race? I doubt they do which probably explains the inconsistency in application of the rules which is symptomatic of the issues I've described. 12 hours ago, Basil said: • alcohol limits for drivers are dumb and should not be enforced (unless the drivers in question are absolutely blotto) I've never said the rules shouldn't be enforced and you again have spun what I've have written although in this case you have just outright made it up! I've said consistently that I believe the difference between the mcg level for harness race driving is incongruous with the level that allows the same individual to legally drive a float full of horses at 100km/h to the races. Why is it different? Is one activity anymore dangerous than the other? To just say that "those are the rules, get over it, suck it up" is too simplistic. Sure they are the rules but it isn't wrong to point out the incongruity. 12 hours ago, Basil said: • "integrity" is something racing doesn't need to be concerned about Never said that at all. Yes integrity is something to be concerned about. However how can you have integrity when the rules are not applied consistently? When the industry administration and judiciary seem to be bereft of common sense, integrity, professionalism and capability. No lets just kick hard working stakeholders in the guts time and time again for what the rest of society consider to be minor misdemeanours. Or worse kick them in the guts on the basis of supposition without evidence. 12 hours ago, Basil said: • but the TAB offering a single exclusive deal to a big punting group is the end of western civilisation as we know it! Now Basil you are adding hyperbole to your interpretation and spin. It isn't the "end of western civilisation as we know it" - Covid-19 is being allowed to do a better job of that than TAB NZ. The point I'm making, which seems to escape your crusade for integrity, is that "the TAB offering a single exclusive deal to a big punting group" does not display much integrity at all, is open to justified criticism, is a marketing fail and a kick in the guts for the average loyal punter. What's more adds further incentive to punters to ignore the syrup coated pleadings to not bet offshore but to bet with TAB NZ because they look after the local industry. On that last point "looking after the local industry." The sole reason for being of TAB NZ is to generate revenue for the industry stakeholders. Aside from decades of largesse and overpaid poor management their offering of an exclusive bet has not only robbed other punters but robbed the industry it is there to support. What did this exclusive bet actually cost? Basil as a Harness Supporter you should be concerned about the considerable subsidisation of the Karaka Million "party". Hundred's of thousands of industry revenue went to stakes for that race meeting of only 6 races. The revenue generated from the meeting fell well short of funding itself. So what do TAB NZ do to make the situation worse? They subsidise one particular punter (it isn't a "group of punters" from a wagering perspective) to the tune of somewhere around $35k (the 4% refunded losses for the day plus the difference between the market price and their premium price on the Quinella bet). In my opinion, aside from pissing off loyal customers, that $35k could have gone to funding the industry. It wasn't even necessary for the BGP to have a better party! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, MarkyMark said: well that post must be an early contender for BOAY'S dipstick post for the year. unbelievable. i know why now the tab restricts you. you incompetence and stupidity levels are too much for the tab to deal with. good day Marky, I am not condoning drunk driving, just saying that 120mcg breath alcohol reading for Blair Orange’s ability to drive on the track would not be compromised, due to his natural ability!!!!! Edited January 27, 2021 by Brodie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karrots Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 Gosh, apologies everyone I did a B Orange (writing under the influence) oppose driving under the influence. Regret & apologies to everyone, even Van Beynen for the outburst. I broke my rule 101. Oh dear and yes Bloss very silly indeed. We all make mistakes. Here is Van Beynen profile. https://muckrack.com/martin-van-beynen/articles Top harness driver pinged for excess alcohol before race meeting - 5 days ago Young trainer Mitchell Kerr 'oversold shares in harness horses - 1 month ago Rising harness racing trainer quits as concerns sent to police - 2 months ago Harness racing drivers protest new rule depowering the whip - 3 months ago Champ to Cheat - The fall of Nigel McGrath - 6 months ago To write a balance, he actually has some really great work. Some positive articles but any article related to Harness is negative. He is in a position that he does not have to write a negative article about harness to get published, so why in the past 6 months has he written 5 negative stories when in contrast he has written positive articles about others in other areas. How many jobs does the industry employ? How much does it bring to the economy of NZ? Yet it seems he is selectively choosing to push it downhill. On a different note, I see J Banks was switched off. So was A Jones (Oz), forget about what they said, point being as a collective group of voices, result they got shoved out. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Basil you are very adept at eliciting a completely different meaning from a simple statement. Have you thought of a career in Politics? Or maybe Corporate Spin? [snipped long explanation] Actually, all I did was quote what you said in this very thread, as well as another live one. Now you've tried to walk it back a bit, which is fair enough, but all that's done is confirm what I suggested: that your racing world-view is "I think trainers and drivers should basically be allowed to behave how they like without interference from rules and that the true enemies of racing are those who seek to publicly hold them to account. Along, of course, with the TAB." On that, I'm afraid, we'll just have to agree to disagree. While it's certainly true that the RIU and TAB are far from perfect, and at times have let racing down badly, the real, and bigger, problems lie at the coalface. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 15 minutes ago, Basil said: Actually, all I did was quote what you said in this very thread In that post you did not directly quote me. Not even paraphrased what I wrote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 17 minutes ago, Basil said: but all that's done is confirm what I suggested: that your racing world-view is "I think trainers and drivers should basically be allowed to behave how they like without interference from rules and that the true enemies of racing are those who seek to publicly hold them to account. Along, of course, with the TAB." I've said no such thing. I've said some of the rules are incongruous and that the expectation or demanding that industry participants should be held to higher standards and penalities than anyone else is society is blatantly wrong. Also instead of achieving what they are setting out to do they are actually doing the opposite. What I can't understand is how supposed industry fans/supporters relish any opportunity to stick the boot in relentlessly and apply standards that they themselves don't need to or cannot attain. 22 minutes ago, Basil said: While it's certainly true that the RIU and TAB are far from perfect, and at times have let racing down badly, the real, and bigger, problems lie at the coalface. No the problem stems from the Top. Those at the coalface are working harder and longer than those that are screwing it up. What's more those at the Top including Administration and the RIU are able to avoid accountability. A classic case, but only one of many, is how Lamb has been able to continue doing what he is doing equally badly in two different roles. Apply the same standards and expectations to him. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterthepunter Posted January 27, 2021 Share Posted January 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Basil said: While it's certainly true that the RIU and TAB are far from perfect, and at times have let racing down badly, the real, and bigger, problems lie at the coalface. is it true tab bookmaker is a son of a Riu chief? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 15 hours ago, Brodie said: FFS Ranga, Blair could drive with a helluva lot higher reading and still be way better than most drivers out there! Why you are constantly getting stuck into the 'driving ability' of the competitors is a mystery. These 'NIL drivers' as you described them earlier in this thread, are doing a fine job, and you should be grateful for the entertainment IMO. Sure, Blair is doing a GREAT JOB, I am sure everyone thinks so in regard to driving horses. Yourself , Chief and some, are thinking this whole Situation (penalty still pending) is over-reaction, Stupid Silly Limits, etc. because of the very Small limit and the driving ability of One BLAIR ORANGE (and mr Butt) It is much BIGGER than that , The Integrity of the Sport of Harness Racing on the line (as reported by Von Beynon to lead the thread. General public People will laugh if they even remotely think the competitors are 'Under the Influence' in any shape or form whatsoever, whatever the limits on this are. How well they (anyone) drive Under the Influence or Not (your arguement) is just Speculation and Opinion. (not fact) Professional Sport deserves better ! Zero Tolerence is best. And here is WHY The following is compliments of MarkyMark and is worthy of re-posting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! most professional athletes and sportsmen are required to be free of drugs, and have no alcohol in their system. In my view a driver should be required to present at raceday free of drugs with no alcohol in the system. It protects the integrity of the sport, and stops doubt. Doubt in relation to any concern over tha drivers ability to drive, and provide confidence to all participants that "alcohol and drugs" have no bearing on any outcome. It would also help with the reputation of the industry. Harness has a poor reputation, there shouldnt be any discretion for alcohol. If you have a zero tolerance, then there can be no confusion for drivers. If I was betting on a race, or was an owner of a horse in the race, and knew that any driver had a reading above zero i would want out. its not hard, nor rocket science. If you want it to be a proffesional sport, with integrity, and helping give confidence to all participants, then no brainer, zero tolerance 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karrots Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 On 1/26/2021 at 5:49 PM, Big Bang said: Van Beynen with no moral compass. Yes Big Bang, he is on record as saying something along lines of he takes emotion out when writing a story. That seemingly translates to me, as he has no empathy for others when writing. He cares not about you, me, nor anyone when writing & no regard for any collateral damage short or long term he causes in the process. He seems, relentless when he latches onto something, maybe similar to a dog with a bone. If so then that is what the industry is dealing with. The potential mentality of this 1 person. Forgot to mention also P Lamb, when all the small voices rose together to collectively roar out, he was also cancelled. There is a term in this new online society we live in courtesy of social media its called “cancel culture”. His retirement age is within this decade, so the industry could just ride it out until then & in interim everyone get it together, as a collective whole (if that reality is possible). Why do I care about this some maybe thinking, because I care about the industry, the participants, the people, & it’s survival. I see this as a potential long-term problem, which could contribute to its long-term demise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 4 hours ago, Karrots said: Gosh, apologies everyone I did a B Orange (writing under the influence) oppose driving under the influence. Regret & apologies to everyone, even Van Beynen for the outburst. I broke my rule 101. Oh dear and yes Bloss very silly indeed. We all make mistakes. Here is Van Beynen profile. https://muckrack.com/martin-van-beynen/articles Top harness driver pinged for excess alcohol before race meeting - 5 days ago Young trainer Mitchell Kerr 'oversold shares in harness horses - 1 month ago Rising harness racing trainer quits as concerns sent to police - 2 months ago Harness racing drivers protest new rule depowering the whip - 3 months ago Champ to Cheat - The fall of Nigel McGrath - 6 months ago To write a balance, he actually has some really great work. Some positive articles but any article related to Harness is negative. He is in a position that he does not have to write a negative article about harness to get published, so why in the past 6 months has he written 5 negative stories when in contrast he has written positive articles about others in other areas. How many jobs does the industry employ? How much does it bring to the economy of NZ? Yet it seems he is selectively choosing to push it downhill. On a different note, I see J Banks was switched off. So was A Jones (Oz), forget about what they said, point being as a collective group of voices, result they got shoved out. To be fair what Banksy said is what the majority of Kiwis would agree with. yes not socially or culturally correct nowadays but is fact! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Gammalite said: Why you are constantly getting stuck into the 'driving ability' of the competitors is a mystery. These 'NIL drivers' as you described them earlier in this thread, are doing a fine job, and you should be grateful for the entertainment IMO. Sure, Blair is doing a GREAT JOB, I am sure everyone thinks so in regard to driving horses. Yourself , Chief and some, are thinking this whole Situation (penalty still pending) is over-reaction, Stupid Silly Limits, etc. because of the very Small limit and the driving ability of One BLAIR ORANGE (and mr Butt) It is much BIGGER than that , The Integrity of the Sport of Harness Racing on the line (as reported by Von Beynon to lead the thread. General public People will laugh if they even remotely think the competitors are 'Under the Influence' in any shape or form whatsoever, whatever the limits on this are. How well they (anyone) drive Under the Influence or Not (your arguement) is just Speculation and Opinion. (not fact) Professional Sport deserves better ! Zero Tolerence is best. And here is WHY The following is compliments of MarkyMark and is worthy of re-posting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! most professional athletes and sportsmen are required to be free of drugs, and have no alcohol in their system. In my view a driver should be required to present at raceday free of drugs with no alcohol in the system. It protects the integrity of the sport, and stops doubt. Doubt in relation to any concern over tha drivers ability to drive, and provide confidence to all participants that "alcohol and drugs" have no bearing on any outcome. It would also help with the reputation of the industry. Harness has a poor reputation, there shouldnt be any discretion for alcohol. If you have a zero tolerance, then there can be no confusion for drivers. If I was betting on a race, or was an owner of a horse in the race, and knew that any driver had a reading above zero i would want out. its not hard, nor rocket science. If you want it to be a proffesional sport, with integrity, and helping give confidence to all participants, then no brainer, zero tolerance Gamma why keep quoting this MarkyMark. Why is his opinion worth anymore than anyone else’s? would back Blair’s ability over al these other tea totallers any day. Ot is a storm I’m a tea cup once again. Van Beynon needs a life he tried to stuff young Munro’s life for nothing! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, Brodie said: Gamma why keep quoting this MarkyMark. Why is his opinion worth anymore than anyone else’s? would back Blair’s ability over al these other tea totallers any day. Ot is a storm I’m a tea cup once again. Van Beynon needs a life he tried to stuff young Munro’s life for nothing! Brodie I do usually like your opinion too. You are very focused here on the actual 'Incident' itself. Which is fine . MarkyMark covered more the repercussions and broad effect on the Harness Racing Industry. And some thoughts on why PROFESSIONAL STANDARDS are required. Which was fine. You keep commenting Blair can beat everyone. which is fine. You keep 'bagging' Blair's opposition drivers all the time . which is surprising .!! lol he does need them. Very sorry that Von Beynon not popular there, (I don't read his stuff) but when leading driver is relieved of drives for Not following the rules (a second time so Does Know Better) VB has to report it ??? can't sweep under carpet...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karrots Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 1 final point Ill raise is, I remember reading an article about a top netball NZ player. The article stated she had been out nite prior drinking, & next day in morning drove. She was over the limit. The article I read about Orange, this piece of info was seemingly selectively omitting the same details, that he went to a industry party the nite prior and was tested in the morning (if that was in fact the case - if not then fine). This could mis-lead the reader to believe that he was drinking that day oppose the nite before. See how the 2 similar stories were presented to the public. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 17 minutes ago, Gammalite said: but when leading driver is relieved of drives for Not following the rules (a second time so Does Know Better) VB has to report it ??? can't sweep under carpet Why does he HAVE to report it? He hasn't reported every other case. Why hasn't he done an in depth investigation into Peter Lamb and printed an article on it? Or have I missed seeing that article? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 Just now, Karrots said: The article stated she had been out nite prior drinking, & next day in morning drove. She was over the limit. Yes but that netball player was OK to play. Blair Orange was legally OK to drive a motor vehicle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karrots Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Yes but that netball player was OK to play. Blair Orange was legally OK to drive a motor vehicle. Oh no sorry Chief, she got done for drinking and driving. My point was that she received a degree of sympathy, rightly or wrongly so. Im not defending poor decisions, even my own on this thread yikes. What I am pointing out is I feel this journo has to a degree declared war on the industry and why and what he wants to achieve, I have no idea. Only he knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blossom lady Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 36 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Yes but that netball player was OK to play. Blair Orange was legally OK to drive a motor vehicle. But he wasn't presenting himself to drive a motor vehicle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blossom lady Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 6 hours ago, Karrots said: Gosh, apologies everyone I did a B Orange (writing under the influence) oppose driving under the influence. Regret & apologies to everyone, even Van Beynen for the outburst. I broke my rule 101. Oh dear and yes Bloss very silly indeed. We all make mistakes. Here is Van Beynen profile. https://muckrack.com/martin-van-beynen/articles Top harness driver pinged for excess alcohol before race meeting - 5 days ago Young trainer Mitchell Kerr 'oversold shares in harness horses - 1 month ago Rising harness racing trainer quits as concerns sent to police - 2 months ago Harness racing drivers protest new rule depowering the whip - 3 months ago Champ to Cheat - The fall of Nigel McGrath - 6 months ago To write a balance, he actually has some really great work. Some positive articles but any article related to Harness is negative. He is in a position that he does not have to write a negative article about harness to get published, so why in the past 6 months has he written 5 negative stories when in contrast he has written positive articles about others in other areas. How many jobs does the industry employ? How much does it bring to the economy of NZ? Yet it seems he is selectively choosing to push it downhill. On a different note, I see J Banks was switched off. So was A Jones (Oz), forget about what they said, point being as a collective group of voices, result they got shoved out. So what you are saying is that you are a drunk supporting a drunk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karrots Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 10 minutes ago, Blossom lady said: So what you are saying is that you are a drunk supporting a drunk! No that is not what I am saying Bloss. Having a dinner party with friends & posting is not the ideal thing to do. Saying a drunk is a gross mis-representation. I am not supporting a drunk. I am pointing out facts about the journo. Besides don't we have a reputation for all being a bit CRAZY on here. Just living up to our rep. Oh and that includes you as you post here too. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 44 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Why does he HAVE to report it? He hasn't reported every other case. Why hasn't he done an in depth investigation into Peter Lamb and printed an article on it? Or have I missed seeing that article? I don't see his articles , only what Davis put at the start here. BAD NEWS always hurts I'm afraid. Big news within the industry (and a GREAT WARNING for all other participants to AVOID this happening to them) So is well worth Reporting really. !! ???or you could just read all about it on BOAY ?? lol........ I'm not , and fairly sure VB is NOT on a Blair Witch Project ..... lol. I have not even commented once on LAMB as have never done that job. (which by reading BOAY is a TOUGH one??) hard enough controlling One 500 kg horse as a driver, let alone 14 of them and their 'potentially drunk drivers' (joke joke hehehe) , not obeying your instructions before the start of a race. standing starts should be yesterdays thing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 (edited) The truth of the matter is that if Blair had his breath analysis taken 15 minutes later then we wouldnt even be naving this debate!! It is all about someone that enjoys drinking as most harness participants! I take it that Blair drove to the course legally as he wouldve been under the legal limit! Someone has tipped the stipes off that they should breathalyse Blair as he had been drinking the night before! Someone tested Blair, whether the recording machine was accurate is unknown! 15 minutes later Blair tests under the legal 100mcg which is a pathetically low amount that would not affect anyones decision making! This needs to be put into perspective and I believe that it is a mountain out of a molehill!!!!!! Edited January 28, 2021 by Brodie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, Brodie said: The truth of the matter is that if Blair had his breath analysis taken 15 minutes later then we wouldnt even be naving this debate!! It is all about someone that enjoys drinking as most harness participants! I take it that Blair drove to the course legally as he wouldve been under the legal limit! Someone has tipped the stipes off that they should breathalyse Blair as he had been drinking the night before! Someone tested Blair, whether the recording machine was accurate is unknown! 15 minutes later Blair tests under the legal 100mcg which is a pathetically low amount that would not affect anyones decision making! Also some more truths are , he didn't get his timing right, he is guilty of an offence , and is going to get a penalty. Can you tell us with all this TRUTH you have, if Mr Butt would be ok with his limit in 15 minutes? Hopefully Blair and Bob got driven to the racecourse by family or friend , rather than risking a positive on the road , since they didn't know what their reading was ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 10 minutes ago, Brodie said: take it that Blair drove to the course legally as he wouldve been under the legal limit! How do you know this ? did Blair and Bob leave the party driving ? so many questions? Chief was particularly upset by the difference between a road and the race driving permitted alcohol level. After the carnage on the road, (yesterday a driver in Brisbane with substance abuse of some kind killed a couple on the footpath walking their dogs, whom just had news at Christmas of expecting first child, Tragic beyond words) so alas I'm particularly touchy with subject , ROAD limit should be LESS chief is my thought on the difference. maybe same as the trots or better still, ZERO would be good ! Race Driving and PROFESSIONAL SPORT also ZERO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkyMark Posted January 28, 2021 Share Posted January 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: Why does he HAVE to report it? He hasn't reported every other case. Why hasn't he done an in depth investigation into Peter Lamb and printed an article on it? Or have I missed seeing that article? Because Chief he is media, he doesnt have to, and it is to write whatever is out there that will attract attention, that is his job after all. And, all he is doing is writing about the actions of on goings that seem to keep on recurring within this industry. He is not to blame, the industry keeps giving him these stories to write after all. All the media are selective with what they choose to write. when it comes to a professional arena, you have to distinguish societal standards to that of a professional environment. Regardless of whether he was legally aloud to drive a car, 1. he knew the rules 2. he is driving, in arguably a dangerous sport, you can not factually determine in anyway that any level of alcohol reading above zero, how that may impair in anyway Blair compared to being entirely sober rules are rules. and are consistent with other professional and corporate environments, businesses and sports. additionally you have a safety issue, and set a dangerous precedent to then determine what level of alcohol is then permissible for a driver to be ok to drive race day. your coming across in your recent posts as an intelligent form or type of Brodie regarding this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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