Thomass Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 22 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Wow you have finally found a benefit for High Definition race broadcasting! Another home goal! FFS Thomas - does your TV have a painometer? Or wires that you attach to your body so you can "FEEL" the pain? Your statement is outlandish. I also suspect that you have doctored that photo and it wouldn't surprise me. Easy to do you just colour darker the pixels a little bit. Huey has a very valid point. Where does Woke/Cancel culture stop? You are in favour of blind folding horses so they are not afraid or are made to feel afraid. You never seem to be able to work out which feeling so I guess your TV wires only measure certain "feelings"! So if you are consistent you will be calling for the banning of blinkers! Or why not next bit-less bridles? It hurts the horses mouths afterall the goal is to keep a sensitive mouth so you can steer them. What about the barbaric process of nailing iron shoes on their feet? So this is a post from Paul McGreevy, Professor of Animal Welfare and Animal Behaviour, University of Sydney.. Note the similar strike force impact into the flesh and flank as my post showed...speaks for itself... To be fair, it was only when I saw high-speed images of whip impact that showed visible indentation of the skin in 83% of impacts I appreciated how likely it was that routine whipping of horses in racing causes pain. As a veterinarian, riding instructor and horse behaviourist, I am ashamed to admit how late this revelation came to me. That I had to see it to believe it made me consider the extraordinary impact of images in achieving positive change for animals over the centuries, and what modern-day imagery might achieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 29, 2021 Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Thomass said: So this is a post from Paul McGreevy, Professor of Animal Welfare and Animal Behaviour, University of Sydney.. This is the same Professor that says you shouldn't pat a horse because they don't like it and it increases their heart rate. Who also says we shouldn't trim manes and tails. He also advocates not isolating horses in stables. I'm sure he has an opinion on blindfolding them as well (blinkers) as he is on record as saying anything that restricts a horses ability to see 360 degrees stresses them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 I've known more people whose heart rate has gone up from patting horses than horses getting a pat . If the horse knows what your doing they love nothing more than a pat or a scratch . Some horses have quite thin skins and are more sensitive to being touched than others but in general they enjoy a rub , watch them in a mob , scratching each other with their teeth and rubbing flanks with their muzzles . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 29, 2021 Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 Some of you might wish to partake in Professor McGreevy's survey - The Horse Personality Quiz: https://www.e-barq.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 29, 2021 Author Share Posted January 29, 2021 13 minutes ago, nomates said: I've known more people whose heart rate has gone up from patting horses than horses getting a pat . If the horse knows what your doing they love nothing more than a pat or a scratch . Some horses have quite thin skins and are more sensitive to being touched than others but in general they enjoy a rub , watch them in a mob , scratching each other with their teeth and rubbing flanks with their muzzles . To be fair to McGreevy he says they prefer a good scratch than a pat. I was always taught to be firm when touching a horse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: This is the same Professor that says you shouldn't pat a horse because they don't like it and it increases their heart rate. Who also says we shouldn't trim manes and tails. He also advocates not isolating horses in stables. I'm sure he has an opinion on blindfolding them as well (blinkers) as he is on record as saying anything that restricts a horses ability to see 360 degrees stresses them. I'm with him on the isolating thing...they are herd animals after all...but modern stables are generally designed so that they can see their mates all around. As for blinkers- he might have a different opinion if he ended up upside down in a hedge because a butterfly moved...and I can't think of any horse - off hand - who doesn't love a head rub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 30, 2021 Author Share Posted January 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Freda said: As for blinkers- he might have a different opinion if he ended up upside down in a hedge because a butterfly moved. Are you sure it wasn't the RIU in disguise? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Bloggs Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: This is the same Professor that says you shouldn't pat a horse because they don't like it and it increases their heart rate. Who also says we shouldn't trim manes and tails. He also advocates not isolating horses in stables. I'm sure he has an opinion on blindfolding them as well (blinkers) as he is on record as saying anything that restricts a horses ability to see 360 degrees stresses them. He's obviously a fwit, he's obviously never been to a riding for the disabled, if he had he might have witnessed the body language between horse and rider, they just know, that's why they are special horses for special people! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Joe Bloggs said: He's obviously a fwit, he's obviously never been to a riding for the disabled, if he had he might have witnessed the body language between horse and rider, they just know, that's why they are special horses for special people! SUB ZERO was the grand champion of visiting disabled, older persons, sick persons , loved by everybody and he knew the joy he brought those people too, always putting his lovely head right there for them to scratch and rub. When 'Subbie ' won the 1992 Melbourne Cup (beating 2 kiwis in Veandercross and Castletown ) think he was even popular then , as the Trifecta divi a record small one ($17) unlikely to ever have that record broken lol. Subbie passed away recently at about 30 odd years old . His Legend lives on. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 22 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: This is the same Professor that says you shouldn't pat a horse because they don't like it and it increases their heart rate. Who also says we shouldn't trim manes and tails. He also advocates not isolating horses in stables. I'm sure he has an opinion on blindfolding them as well (blinkers) as he is on record as saying anything that restricts a horses ability to see 360 degrees stresses them. Answer the questions... 'Why has the IFHA banned whipping the flank'? Then you have to ask yourself 'is the flight or fight response activated by the pain of the Whip or the noise'? Has there been a clinical experiment wrt Human nerve endings cf horse's epidermis? Do Jockeys have a favourite 'sweet spot' on the Whip handle to acitivate the stitched end of the padded Whip rather than the flat side...producing greater pain? No prevaricating just answer the questions...thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 30, 2021 Author Share Posted January 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Thomass said: 'Why has the IFHA banned whipping the flank'? If you don't know why don't you go and ask them? Here are the details: https://www.ifhaonline.org/default.asp?section=ContactUS&area=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted January 31, 2021 Share Posted January 31, 2021 23 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: If you don't know why don't you go and ask them? Here are the details: https://www.ifhaonline.org/default.asp?section=ContactUS&area=1 I'm trying to find why you're so lazzez fear on Animal welfare.... Just brushed poor Reefton's horse under the carpet, like he did to... ...with a lacerated head and cuts... ....and now flank whipping... which you enjoy watching Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 31, 2021 Author Share Posted January 31, 2021 25 minutes ago, Thomass said: I'm trying to find why you're so lazzez fear on Animal welfare.... I think the term you misspelt is 'laissez faire' - aside from the spelling you have misused the term. 27 minutes ago, Thomass said: Just brushed poor Reefton's horse under the carpet, like he did to... ...with a lacerated head and cuts... I can't speak for Reefton however I believe his view was the same as mine. It happened, an error was made, the trainer made his views clearly made - end of story - move on. No doubt we will hear about it from you for the next four years. Not to mention you posting totally unrelated pictures of a horse with its throat cut! Are you a closet animal rights activist? 29 minutes ago, Thomass said: ....and now flank whipping... which you enjoy watching You have no idea what I enjoy or don't enjoy watching. With regard to "Whip Rule Changes" my view is that it is token virtue signalling that won't change the animal activist's agenda which is to ban racing completely. Impractical whip rules that are hard to enforce only serves to provide a public focal point for misguided angst. Not to mention some of the dubious science used as justification. Banning the whip won't be the end of it. The focus will then shift to blinkers, mouth bits, ear hoods, shoeing and so on and so on. Where do you stop? I say don't start especially when you are policing things at the end of the system and only paying lip service or no attention at all during the early part of the process e.g. rules for those that break horses in, pre-trainers etc. All the recent additions of barrier blankets, hoods, ear plugs, blinkers and the rest are reflective of poor training. You are anti hitting a horse on its flank with a padded whip but are happy to see a horse literally blindfolded and deafened on its way to the barriers and to wear blinkers during the a race because it suits your betting blueprint. Who is the hypocrite here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 1, 2021 Share Posted February 1, 2021 20 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: I think the term you misspelt is 'laissez faire' - aside from the spelling you have misused the term. I can't speak for Reefton however I believe his view was the same as mine. It happened, an error was made, the trainer made his views clearly made - end of story - move on. No doubt we will hear about it from you for the next four years. Not to mention you posting totally unrelated pictures of a horse with its throat cut! Are you a closet animal rights activist? You have no idea what I enjoy or don't enjoy watching. With regard to "Whip Rule Changes" my view is that it is token virtue signalling that won't change the animal activist's agenda which is to ban racing completely. Impractical whip rules that are hard to enforce only serves to provide a public focal point for misguided angst. Not to mention some of the dubious science used as justification. Banning the whip won't be the end of it. The focus will then shift to blinkers, mouth bits, ear hoods, shoeing and so on and so on. Where do you stop? I say don't start especially when you are policing things at the end of the system and only paying lip service or no attention at all during the early part of the process e.g. rules for those that break horses in, pre-trainers etc. All the recent additions of barrier blankets, hoods, ear plugs, blinkers and the rest are reflective of poor training. You are anti hitting a horse on its flank with a padded whip but are happy to see a horse literally blindfolded and deafened on its way to the barriers and to wear blinkers during the a race because it suits your betting blueprint. Who is the hypocrite here? Fear was diliberate of course...but you know that The lexicon is now more than just your failed system of economics, that you hold so dear...the 'free' market...where your darling, Greybeard Hart, has managed to increase his wealth by 3.4B during Covid... Its 'don't give a shit' now....and you don't give a shirt about running injured horses or the morality of inflicting unnecessary pain on Thoroughbred horses through whipping... Comparing 'pain' with helping a highly strung Thoroughbred get to the start in one piece is plainly absurd... ...then telling Jammie Richards his ample use of Blinkers, BB's et el is a reflection on his "poor training" even more so... Change is going to come though..and it seems you'll be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world... Just accept change is my advice... ....and that inflicting pain on animals with a Whip is so 18th century... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 1, 2021 Author Share Posted February 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Thomass said: Comparing 'pain' with helping a highly strung Thoroughbred get to the start in one piece is plainly absurd... You miss the point and prove my point in one sentence! Boy you are on a dog roll today! So you are only interested in physical pain NOT mental anguish? The point is there is a whole raft of issues and practices that the "Woke" can focus on to "Cancel". Give an inch and it is a slippery slope. 1 hour ago, Thomass said: ...then telling Jammie Richards his ample use of Blinkers, BB's et el is a reflection on his "poor training" even more so... Didn't mention Jamie Richards - I referred to the unlicensed breakers and pre-trainers that are at the early part of the supply chain. Where is the focus on that relatively unregulated part of the industry? If you are an activist for animal welfare why are you only focussing on the stuff your adoring public can see? BTW Melody Belle would probably go just as well without Blinkers. She won her maiden without them. They were first put on for the KMillion. Often gear becomes a trainer superstition or for the horse a Pavlov Dog type reaction i.e. "oh blinkers are on - not a track gallop but a race!" However again that isn't the point. Blinkers are a tool to elicit a behavioural response to achieve a better outcome. If we used your animal breeding philosophy on horses then we'd ban blinkers and get a better breed that wants to race without them. However the breeding it out of them is a rubbish argument because the need for blinkers could just as easily be a learned behaviour to a flaw in the breaking in and pre-training process. 1 hour ago, Thomass said: Change is going to come though..and it seems you'll be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world... Just accept change is my advice... ....and that inflicting pain on animals with a Whip is so 18th century... I won't be dragged kicking and screaming anywhere especially by animal activists that want racing ENDED fullstop! No doubt we will have to reduce our horse numbers by 15% to reduce emissions! Again back to the point - will you be lobbying for the banning the use of whips by horse breakers, pre-trainers and during track work? Or are horses subjected to pain or feel pain only on race days? As I say "Be careful what you wish for"! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: You miss the point and prove my point in one sentence! Boy you are on a dog roll today! So you are only interested in physical pain NOT mental anguish? The point is there is a whole raft of issues and practices that the "Woke" can focus on to "Cancel". Give an inch and it is a slippery slope. Didn't mention Jamie Richards - I referred to the unlicensed breakers and pre-trainers that are at the early part of the supply chain. Where is the focus on that relatively unregulated part of the industry? If you are an activist for animal welfare why are you only focussing on the stuff your adoring public can see? BTW Melody Belle would probably go just as well without Blinkers. She won her maiden without them. They were first put on for the KMillion. Often gear becomes a trainer superstition or for the horse a Pavlov Dog type reaction i.e. "oh blinkers are on - not a track gallop but a race!" However again that isn't the point. Blinkers are a tool to elicit a behavioural response to achieve a better outcome. If we used your animal breeding philosophy on horses then we'd ban blinkers and get a better breed that wants to race without them. However the breeding it out of them is a rubbish argument because the need for blinkers could just as easily be a learned behaviour to a flaw in the breaking in and pre-training process. I won't be dragged kicking and screaming anywhere especially by animal activists that want racing ENDED fullstop! No doubt we will have to reduce our horse numbers by 15% to reduce emissions! Again back to the point - will you be lobbying for the banning the use of whips by horse breakers, pre-trainers and during track work? Or are horses subjected to pain or feel pain only on race days? As I say "Be careful what you wish for"! And you're going backward rolls! FFS "Mental anguish"? That's when you leave pacifiers behind and the Bub goes nuts at a play date with a hot divorcee's Bub...instant turn off for hotty and distracted from observing moi In case you didn't realise the Thoroughbred breed is hot too...finely tuned animals mixing with a crazy drunken crowd first start and you want her naked as the day she was born? The only pain felt in a blindfold, hood and pacifiers is if Madam Lash doesn't warn you before inflicting a cut of nine tails...ok? Basic stuff.... As is Blinkers...Ive told you before...many yearling these days fail to run with a mob as youngsters and become field shy as a result... Just a very silly argument you're espousing wrt pain in gear Zero pain in any gear change...gear endeavours to AVOID uncomfortable and painful events... You're really struggling to make any relevant points at all....what's the problem... Youve got nothing else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 11 minutes ago, Thomass said: In case you didn't realise the Thoroughbred breed is hot too...finely tuned animals mixing with a crazy drunken crowd first start and you want her naked as the day she was born? The majority of horses DON'T race in blinkers nor wear all the pacifier crap. 11 minutes ago, Thomass said: As is Blinkers...Ive told you before...many yearling these days fail to run with a mob as youngsters and become field shy as a result... That's a double dog roll for you today! Again you prove my point. It is how we treat and train these horses prior to raceday that causes the issues which are then overcome by adding extra gear. 15 minutes ago, Thomass said: Just a very silly argument you're espousing wrt pain in gear Zero pain in any gear change...gear endeavours to AVOID uncomfortable and painful events... How do you know there isn't any "pain"? You've said yourself that "blinkers invoke a fear or flight response"! 18 minutes ago, Thomass said: You're really struggling to make any relevant points at all....what's the problem... Youve got nothing else? I am making points - so well in fact that you are posting evidence to support them. Back to whip use. Do you support the banning of them from all parts of the racing supply chain? In the interests of animal welfare of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 2, 2021 Author Share Posted February 2, 2021 Forget about the idiot pitch invader - the big issue remains the whip Article Author Bruce Clark 3:59PM01 February 2021 22 Comments While dead-heats and racetrack idiots were much of the talk in weekend wash-ups, I think as importantly it is to note again that Racing Victoria has clearly signalled no matter the outcome of the long drawn out Racing Australia review of the whip rules, it will be going its own way. That review, as we have covered here in the past, is due to be tabled later this month at the RA board meeting, but despite publicly stating their own amendments and preferred position last September for that review to consider, they dug in deeper last week announcing another new set of whip rules will be incorporated into their rich Country Mile Series. After RV quickly back tracked on a proposed “whip for safety” when it was revealed in this column late last year, due to lack of participant support, RV announced last week its “limited use of the whip” trial for the Country Mile series. And again, it will proceed without any significant participant support, jockeys, trainers and owners quick to question the why, and the timing of it. Why is RV shackling itself so closely to its position, when all participants are satisfied to let the RA review play itself out. RV has already flagged it may go it alone with their preferred options, no matter the outcome and this latest trial series is just further affirmation of where their mind space is. This latest trial digs a deeper line in their sandpit. As quick background: The current Australian Rules of Racing permit the use of the whip a maximum of five times in non-consecutive strides prior to the 100m mark and at the rider’s discretion in the final 100m of a race where its use in consecutive strides is permitted. RV’s position is that the whip can only be used between five and eight times through a race and never in consecutive strides. So in announcing this different trial – RV wrote it off as it “will assist with gathering data and learnings in areas such as racing and wagering outcomes, fan engagement and sentiment, level of participant support, adaptation to the conditions by riders, conduct and safety of the race, and the consistency of form lines.” It went on: “This information will be invaluable in informing the review of potential changes to rules governing the use of the whip that is currently being conducted by Racing Australia.” So the series starts on Colac Cup day February 14, progresses through Swan Hill, Ballarat, Pakenham and Wangaratta (with $75,000 races) with qualified horses (if their riders haven’t breached the new latest whip rules), going to a $250,000 final at Moonee Valley on March 13. I am not sure what wagering data for one they can glean from a trial at Colac that races three times a year. If this was to be a serious data collection series, with ramifications for RV’s position on such an important issue, why not use metropolitan races where the leading riders will participate (or maybe not)? So extrapolate that out – if the “data” shows wagering drops in these new whip restricted races, will RV abandon that plan. But punters are resilient, they bet, wagering has increased in recent years, despite flood, drought, boom, busts, lockdowns - you name it. If they are on, the punters are on. There was a queue to question RV’s latest whim from owners, trainers and jockeys. “We acknowledge this initiative has mixed support from some industry stakeholder groups. However, we thank them for their input to the process to this point and we can only reiterate that we see little downside to running this trial and using the learnings to better inform the discussion on this critical issue,” RV’s general manager of racing Greg Carpenter said. “It’s a resounding no, according to the feedback from our trainers,” said trainer’s spokesman Andrew Nicholl highlighting the $625,000 on offer in prizemoney in a time he said many trainers were continuing to struggle through COVID-19, suggesting the money would be better spent across grass roots racing. TROA (Owners boss) Jonathan Munz said the national approach where a uniform rule would be determined was their priority. “In terms of data analytics, trialling a modified set of rules in an expensive country “pop-up” series for restricted horses is not going to give you useful data and is not a good use of industry funds, which should be deployed elsewhere," he said As for the jockeys, again Matt Hyland confirmed the VJA’s support for the RA process. “We are not supportive of the concept. It will be up to each member to decided whether to ride in those races.” And if they do, they are liable for a revamped set of fines and, or suspensions and not be able to ride in the final of the Country mile Series. Horse’s ridden by jockeys in breach will also be ineligible for further heats or the final. The five heats and final of the series will now be conducted under race conditions which will provide for the whip to be used no more than five times throughout the entire race. While the industry is first to acknowledge the need to adjust public perceptions on the use of the whip in racing, the long winded, RA review and RV’s undermining positions is doing little to advance the cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 On 2/2/2021 at 4:21 PM, Chief Stipe said: Forget about the idiot pitch invader - the big issue remains the whip It's such a hard one. So often you see a horse win because of the 'extra' jockey effort. Just now in the last Race R8 at Sandown , D MOOR had to get stuck into horse Good and Proper as the 2 favourites in the race came at him up the straight. No way was he using the 5 Whip strike policy on this occasion.!! Held on by 1/2 head, with 1/2 head to third. He would of been only third if he didn't ride it like he did. What to do ? Just run third , I guess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 You DQ them that's what... The first 3 in Last years Wellington Cup had all broken the Whip rules and got wet slap bus ticket penalties... The latest research proves using the Whip increases speed over a distance @3L on average... Or you could use 1 extra strike results in a 1/2L penalty to 3 strike = 1 1/2L...then DQ'd for obvious diliberate cheating That would enable a Jockey to successfully protest who followed the rules but was beaten in a close finish...but it won't happen The most progressive way forward and to lead the World is adopting the new Amatuer Riders rule of hands on reins throughout while slapping the shoulder.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomates Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Thomass said: You DQ them that's what... Till this happens , nothing changes . Or an owner takes a civil case . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 3, 2021 Author Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Thomass said: The latest research proves using the Whip increases speed over a distance @3L on average... What research? Cite it accurately and or post a link. BTW you haven't replied to my question regarding the banning of whips all through the supply chain. Are you still formulating your views? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomass Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 I'm pushed fighting Blighty Toms at the mo... Google Guardian racing...whips don't increase speed However they came to the wrong conclusion and Australian doyen form analyst whathisname...found the SPCA inspired research failed to understand Basic horse shit That 1 second = 6 L....and 'margins' in horse racing are huge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 15 minutes ago, Thomass said: I'm pushed fighting Blighty Toms at the mo... Google Guardian racing...whips don't increase speed However they came to the wrong conclusion and Australian doyen form analyst whathisname...found the SPCA inspired research failed to understand Basic horse shit That 1 second = 6 L....and 'margins' in horse racing are huge Cite your sources. Post some links to this "Research"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 3 hours ago, Thomass said: I'm pushed fighting Blighty Toms at the mo... Google Guardian racing...whips don't increase speed However they came to the wrong conclusion and Australian doyen form analyst whathisname...found the SPCA inspired research failed to understand Basic horse shit That 1 second = 6 L....and 'margins' in horse racing are huge What a load of bollocks. Some sensitive fillies will curl up like a piece of lettuce if hit....bludging old geldings might get on with things a bit - if it suits them - stallions can pull up in a stride. Just keep it consistent for God's sake. Five overall works fine elsewhere, don't give me crap about horses not trying...the riders will just have to learn to push and drive using legs, upper body strength, balance, whatever works. But flailing around with a whip should be a thing of the past. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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