The need for pre-race testing - by Thomass

[KickintheKods]

If the cobalt trough story was anything other than fantasy, I will stand naked for a couple of hours at the winning post at Ellerslie on Derby day after swallowing a dozen rigid blues.

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, KickintheKods said:

If the cobalt trough story was anything other than fantasy, I will stand naked for a couple of hours at the winning post at Ellerslie on Derby day after swallowing a dozen rigid blues.

You have no proof to the contrary other than supposition and conjecture.  Therefore your view is the fantastical one.  Perhaps you should get a full body wax in preparation for your Ellerslie vigil.

[Huey]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I believe it was a plausible explanation and there has been no evidence to say otherwise.  In my opinion the "Cobalt Issue" across both the OZ and NZ racing jurisdiction has been mishandled by the authorities and a number of trainers unfairly treated.  Peter Moody for one.

Oh c'mon how on earth is it plausible?

[KickintheKods]

 Conjecture it is not. 

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, Huey said:

Oh c'mon how on earth is it plausible?

Up until that point the assumption was that the only way to get elevated blood cobalt levels was to inject a mega dose of cobalt chloride.  

As part of the case it was determined that high levels of cobalt could be achieved by oral administration.  Not surprising really when this was the common method of administering to cattle e.g. through water trough slurry or salt licks.

Not to mention of course the false positives caused by the administration of Vitamin B12.

So the explanation given by O'Sullivan and Scott was deemed plausible albeit not proven by the RIU.  The industry Vet Grierson concurred.

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, KickintheKods said:

 Conjecture it is not. 

Are you a vet?

You have no proof to support your view other than supposition and conjecture.  Well if you do have proof you certainly haven't posted any.

[Huey]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Up until that point the assumption was that the only way to get elevated blood cobalt levels was to inject a mega dose of cobalt chloride.  

As part of the case it was determined that high levels of cobalt could be achieved by oral administration.  Not surprising really when this was the common method of administering to cattle e.g. through water trough slurry or salt licks.

Not to mention of course the false positives caused by the administration of Vitamin B12.

So the explanation given by O'Sullivan and Scott was deemed plausible albeit not proven by the RIU.  The industry Vet Grierson concurred.

Seriously though a 6 figure horse ,going for a G1 race is going to be put in a paddock with cattle while it's in work? Are you telling me you think that's something they did?

[KickintheKods]

10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Are you a vet?

You have no proof to support your view other than supposition and conjecture.  Well if you do have proof you certainly haven't posted any.

No I'm not a vet as far as I can tell, but I have spent many many hours chewing the fat with that well know Matamata bottom inserter, Dr Do Little.

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Huey said:

Seriously though a 6 figure horse ,going for a G1 race is going to be put in a paddock with cattle while it's in work? Are you telling me you think that's something they did?

The cattle weren't in the paddock when the horses were.  They shared water troughs.  The explanation that was accepted as plausible was that the mineral slurry added to the trough had left sufficient residue to raise the cobalt levels in the horses.

It is common practice to graze cattle or other livestock to keep grass growth in check and later use that paddock for horses.

Hell I've seen pictures of Grp horses spelling in large paddocks alongside steers at the same time.  A number of our top stables are both horse trainers and livestock farmers.  In my opinion that is part of the reason for their success.

 

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, KickintheKods said:

No I'm not a vet as far as I can tell, but I have spent many many hours chewing the fat with that well know Matamata bottom inserter, Dr Do Little.

Can you translate that into Greek?  Your English is hard to understand.

[Gammalite]

Peter Moody fortunately got off his charge of Cobalt with Lidari second in the turnbull positive swab. 

overdose of some hoof treatment apparently. after new testing brought in 2015.

A top bloke Darrell Graham (6th rank harness trainer QLD and daughter Brittany does the Sky racing presentation) is just back from year Off disqualified in 2020 (sentence was reduced to 12 months from 15 months) for a elevated Cobalt charge. Never cheated in his life, doesn't even know what cobalt looks like , let alone how adminstered.

It is in a lot of things , probably horse chewing a paddock rail at times is what he guessed in the end.

cost him 100k over 3 years on appeals with legal fees. Very very sad . glad he's back ! and actually the original horse Mafauta Vautin (named after fatty) with the positive in 2016 owned by his wife , is in 100k Group 1 Menangle tonight.!!

Hope it wins !!!

[KickintheKods]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The cattle weren't in the paddock when the horses were.  They shared water troughs.  The explanation that was accepted as plausible was that the mineral slurry added to the trough had left sufficient residue to raise the cobalt levels in the horses.

It is common practice to graze cattle or other livestock to keep grass growth in check and later use that paddock for horses.

Hell I've seen pictures of Grp horses spelling in large paddocks alongside steers at the same time.  A number of our top stables are both horse trainers and livestock farmers.  In my opinion that is part of the reason for their success.

 

On that basis it would be very likely you still believe in Santa Clause

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, KickintheKods said:

On that basis it would be very likely you still believe in Santa Clause

Well you haven't come up with any proof to support your view.

The stupid thing about the whole cobalt debacle is that there is stuff all evidence that high doses are performance enhancing.  They are toxic though.

[Huey]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Well you haven't come up with any proof to support your view.

The stupid thing about the whole cobalt debacle is that there is stuff all evidence that high doses are performance enhancing.  They are toxic though.

Doesn't matter it's an illegal substance. 

The cattle were even out in paddocks near horses in work , you'd have to be a big fan to believe it. 

[Chief Stipe]

24 minutes ago, Huey said:

Doesn't matter it's an illegal substance

Well it does matter when you consider the alternative theory that by default you and others are pushing.  That is the horses were knowingly administered large doses of Cobalt, presumably by injection.  Whats more it was done knowing that it was an illegal substance and easy to detect.  Whats more it appears to have no proven performance enhancing effects.

And you reckon the explanation that was given was implausible?  

27 minutes ago, Huey said:

The cattle were even out in paddocks near horses in work , you'd have to be a big fan to believe it. 

Where was it said that that was the case?  What I read was that the cattle had been in that paddock at some stage and moved on.

[Chief Stipe]

Seriously don't you guys see how illogical your scenario is?  Or do you just have a predilection to conspiracy theories?

Occam's Razor.

[Huey]

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Seriously don't you guys see how illogical your scenario is?  Or do you just have a predilection to conspiracy theories?

Occam's Razor.

You dont strike me as gullible CS , you really dont.

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, Huey said:

You dont strike me as gullible CS , you really dont.

Come on Huey your alternative scenario has far more holes in it than the explanation that was given.

Feel free to explain one by one the points I made.  For example explain how they thought the cobalt would not be detected?

 

[Huey]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Come on Huey your alternative scenario has far more holes in it than the explanation that was given.

Feel free to explain one by one the points I made.  For example explain how they thought the cobalt would not be detected?

 

Wouldn't waste my time hypothesizing the situation, I'm just that stunned that you believe its plausible. Ever thought of becoming a real stipe ? 

[Chief Stipe]

36 minutes ago, Huey said:

Wouldn't waste my time hypothesizing the situation, I'm just that stunned that you believe its plausible. Ever thought of becoming a real stipe ? 

FFS Dr Grierson the industry vet said it was plausible as well as the RIU.  Were they "in on it" too?

Your alternative theory just doesn't stack up.  

[Huey]

10 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

FFS Dr Grierson the industry vet said it was plausible as well as the RIU.  Were they "in on it" too?

Your alternative theory just doesn't stack up.  

Plausible doesn't make it so. It's a shocker of a call,  but hey that's in the past now. How about the poppies huh, selecting which horse to do a positive on, maybe the plants will take over after all.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Huey said:

Plausible doesn't make it so. It's a shocker of a call,  but hey that's in the past now. How about the poppies huh, selecting which horse to do a positive on, maybe the plants will take over after all.

You haven't yet come up with an alternative other than an inferred one.  Quite frankly that inferred one doesn't stack up.

 

[Huey]

52 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

You haven't yet come up with an alternative other than an inferred one.  Quite frankly that inferred one doesn't stack up.

 

You can take glee in the fact that I wont be wasting my time coming up with one, the inferred one is most plausible still imo lol.

[Thomass]

On 26/02/2021 at 4:35 PM, Pitman said:

I'm with Thomas, normally when a horse returns a positive other horses from that stable when placed on race day used to get swabbed.

 

Not a good look when members of the RIU start using the word contamination, so out of all those winners only one horse got whatever was contaminated, yeah right!

 

They do a lot more pre race and out of competition testing in the South Island Their own records prove that.

Or is the water different in Matamata

Didn't you go to the RIU and ask them why Pitty?

And they told you it's "all under control..we're purchasing another tco2 testing kit"

...and the reason why they don't is Harness are more likely to use 'milk' over longer distances and these limited kits have to be where the greatest number of Harness horses are trained?

And stuff Thoroughbreds?

[Huey]

On 26/02/2021 at 4:35 PM, Pitman said:

I'm with Thomas, normally when a horse returns a positive other horses from that stable when placed on race day used to get swabbed.

 

Not a good look when members of the RIU start using the word contamination, so out of all those winners only one horse got whatever was contaminated, yeah right!

 

They do a lot more pre race and out of competition testing in the South Island Their own records prove that.

Or is the water different in Matamata

Not to mention if a stable had recently had a positive wouldn't you be testing all of the winners coming out of that stable? Have a look at Military Step at Wanganui 14/1/2021 , was that 2 weeks after the positive? 

 9 winners that day ( I realise another one of TA was tested after winning, but isn;t that the point of the 6 race winners, the contamination can apparently come from anywhere)  only 8 tested. They don't do the last race?