Chief Stipe Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 8 minutes ago, KickintheKods said: Hung him out to dry good and proper. Eh? You are taking the piss surely? Or do you read Greek when the rest of us read English? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KickintheKods Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 I thought Friday was Urine Extraction Day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 2 minutes ago, KickintheKods said: I thought Friday was Urine Extraction Day Yeah a Tsunami of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesio Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 On 2/27/2021 at 10:34 AM, Chief Stipe said: All staff, feed and hay were drug tested. The only positive returned was the hay from a new supplier which had only been supplied the week of the races and only in the barn that Vamos Bebe was housed. That hay has been removed and fed to Te Akau's cattle. The RIU investigation was across all this. Where did you get this info Chief.....was the hay in question actually tested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 40 minutes ago, KickintheKods said: Geez I don't think David Ellis supported his trainer as much as I has assumed he would. What have you got to do to get in the Ellis Good Book Chief? Hung him out to dry good and proper. You would know wouldn't you...surely??? Chief writes them love letters about their expensive yearling purchases, they must be good letters huh? Wouldn't it be great to have seen the process go to these lengths to prove several other innocents in the past, perhaps it could have saved some good people several unnecessary headaches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, Huey said: Wouldn't it be great to have seen the process go to these lengths to prove several other innocents in the past, perhaps it could have saved some good people several unnecessary headaches. You do have a point there. However as I have posted a lot about - the potential for this to happen again and again is very real. At the end of the day the punishment far outweighs the crime. One thing that I would have liked to have seen is the level of morphine that was found. Saying it wasn't at a level that would have been performance enhancing is not enough in my opinion. They also seem to have done enough testing to determine that the morphine was indeed organic in origin rather than commercial grade. A thorough chemical analysis would have confirmed to a reasonable degree of certainty the source of the substance. So if the level is low enough not to enhance performance, is a permitted substance for therapeutic treatment (although rarely used) and the origin is know with a degree of certainty surely the fine, the black mark against the Trainer (the next offence will cost more), the loss of $32,000 in stakes and black type is an over the top punishment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KickintheKods Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 Not to mention the financial impact it will have on Brent and Cherry.....or not 😃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noodlum Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 20 minutes ago, KickintheKods said: Not to mention the financial impact it will have on Brent and Cherry.....or not 😃 Well the mare might not have another black type chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesio Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 Chief - was was the hay in question removed and feed to Te Akau cattle (as per your early comment)? And now the RIU report just released notes “Feed or Haylage samples were not analysed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesio Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 Chief - Why was the hay in question removed and feed to Te Akau cattle (as per your early comment)? And now the RIU report just released notes “Feed or Haylage samples were not analysed? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 10 hours ago, Tesio said: Chief - Why was the hay in question removed and feed to Te Akau cattle (as per your early comment)? And now the RIU report just released notes “Feed or Haylage samples were not analysed? You tell me. I'm sure you'll find some conspiracy theory. What is it? As for removing the hay and feeding to cattle - wouldn't that be the prudent thing to do if there was suspected contamination? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesio Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 59 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: You tell me. I'm sure you'll find some conspiracy theory. What is it? As for removing the hay and feeding to cattle - wouldn't that be the prudent thing to do if there was suspected contamination? Chief - you are the one telling the story. You quoted it on here, so i guess you are the one with the theory’s . As for “The prudent thing to do”....no I wouldn’t, if i had just failed a drug test, and I thought it was from the hay, i would have isolated the hay and had it tested to the prove my innocence/where the source come from....thought that would be pretty logical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 12 minutes ago, Tesio said: As for “The prudent thing to do”....no I wouldn’t, if i had just failed a drug test, and I thought it was from the hay, i would have isolated the hay and had it tested to the prove my innocence/where the source come from....thought that would be pretty logical. Then what would you have done with the hay? We are just debating timelines here nothing more. As for proving innocence that had already been achieved by the RIU through the results of the blood test. The testing determined that the morphine was not synthetic nor commercial in origin i.e. it was organic. As I pointed out in another post that is how sophisticated modern testing is. The RIU are not particularly transparent with regard to the test results so one cannot comment on the level nor the chemical signature. I assume that they saw enough in the results to support their conclusion that the source was feed contamination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesio Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 18 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: We are just debating timelines here nothing more. We are not just debating timelines......we are debating facts (which you always police us about on here). You said..... “The only positive returned was the hay from a new supplier which had only been supplied the week of the races and only in the barn that Vamos Bebe was housed. That hay has been removed and fed to Te Akau's cattle. The RIU investigation was across all this” Is this factual? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 45 minutes ago, Tesio said: We are not just debating timelines......we are debating facts (which you always police us about on here). You said..... “The only positive returned was the hay from a new supplier which had only been supplied the week of the races and only in the barn that Vamos Bebe was housed. That hay has been removed and fed to Te Akau's cattle. The RIU investigation was across all this” Is this factual? It is possible that there has been some confusion in translation over the timeline of the investigation. For example my understanding is it was the RIU that pointed towards feed contamination. The commercial grain formula was used for all the horses tested on 26 December (7 in total) and the only feed that was different was the hay. So by a process of elimination the likely source was the hay. The blood tests identified that the morphine was not synthetic nor commercial grade and pointed towards hay contamination. So yes I may have written something that wasn't 100% correct in detail (my translation) however that doesn't detract from the conclusion that the villain was contaminated hay. The science of food contamination and adulteration is a fascinating one and one that has made amazing advances in the last 20 years. My interest in this science was piqued when I organised an international symposium on the identification of manuka honey in Hamilton. Scientists from England, Australia, China and New Zealand presented research. Honey is in the top three of foods that are passed off as something that they aren't. I'm sure we have all heard of stories where beef patties in Europe have been found to contain horse meat. Honey and olive oil are two other examples of where they are often not true to label. I had the pleasure of driving two of the scientists back from Hamilton to Auckland to catch their flights home. One Dr Adrian Charlton (https://www.fera.co.uk/scientist-profiles/adrian-charlton/) from FERA in the UK. The drive back was a loaded discussion on food and contaminate testing and I was amazed at how incredible the science was. Agricultural foods and their contaminants (environmental and illegal) have chemical signatures so specific that the source can be identified accurately right down to region. https://www.fera.co.uk/food-safety/popular-services/veterinary-medicine-residues-testing.html To cut a long story short and not bore you with a science that I find incredibly fascinating the conclusion reached by the RIU investigator based on the chemical analysis of the blood sample I find it to be accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jess Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 Give me a flippin' break. Morphine contaminated hay? And morphine contaminated hay that no-one bothers to test before it's thrown to the cows? But then again - some ppl believed that tale spun about derby ponies hanging with the herd & swigging on da cobalt enriched H2O ... Some are not so green as cabbage looking ... or whatever that ole saying was ..... And here's another that may apply here - there's none so blind as those who will not see ... Greetings & kind regards one & all. J 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 6, 2021 Author Share Posted March 6, 2021 Jess you are well off the mark on this issue. I understand you are a licensed trainer and I suggest you get yourself up to speed on this issue. There are numerous instances of morphine contamination in NZ racing. The primary source being poppy plants/seeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 28 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Jess you are well off the mark on this issue. I understand you are a licensed trainer and I suggest you get yourself up to speed on this issue. There are numerous instances of morphine contamination in NZ racing. The primary source being poppy plants/seeds. Yeahh ... years of research on this. E.g., https://thehorse.com/110865/study-evaluates-banned-controlled-substances-in-horse-feed/ But trainers still need to remain and be held responsible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 6, 2021 Author Share Posted March 6, 2021 1 minute ago, curious said: But trainers still need to remain and be held responsible. I wouldn't expect you to be across the chemistry involved however why should someone be held responsible for something they have no control over? Not only have no control but at levels which are not performance enhancing nor therapeutic. In my opinion this issue is only going to get bigger. Dont be surprised if it is one of the key areas of review of the Covid-19 pandemic. When does a positive actually have relevance in terms of actions or outcomes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jess Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 So I went through our hay paddocks after they were cut this year - picking out the weeds before it was baled. Thought at the time I was picking out docks & the odd scotchy ... now I realise it was probably poppy plants! Growing wild and free with their nasty opioid ways in my hay paddocks! Well bugger me! Who knew?! So thanks for your help Chief - I'll pay more attention next time. And then there's the matter of how I feed it out. I will change my ways and will follow the example of the exalted and in future, will carefully allocate individual supplies of forage to individual horses. You see I have this weird habit of opening a bale and feeding it to everything until it's time to open the next bale. Which could have resulted in positive swabs for morphine for the entire tribe had they been lining up at the races! Ouch! Really appreciate the heads up ....always something to learn in this game .... Cheers, J 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Whyisit Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 10 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: To cut a long story short and not bore you with a science that I find incredibly fascinating the conclusion reached by the RIU investigator based on the chemical analysis of the blood sample I find it to be accurate. Did the RIU investigator back up his conclusion by examining the hay paddocks from where the so called poppy seeded hay came from to further accentuate his theory. Was the hay from off the T A property ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 6, 2021 Author Share Posted March 6, 2021 9 hours ago, Whyisit said: Was the hay from off the T A property ? No. 9 hours ago, Whyisit said: Did the RIU investigator back up his conclusion by examining the hay paddocks from where the so called poppy seeded hay came from to further accentuate his theory. According to the JCA report - no. However you may wish to ask them. However from the JCA's perspective what would be the point? For a start it would involve trying to determine which meadow the hay came from. I doubt any farmer has that level of traceability. Then they would have to walk all over the property looking for a needle in a haystack. Once cut the poppy plants would be hard to detect as they wouldn't be there. The JCA had a proven positive. The testing showed that the morphine was from a non-synthetic or commercial source. There was no evidence of deliberate administration. Either way the result would have been the same and the outcome is set in stone. Disqualification of horse, loss of stakes and black type and the Trainer fined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 6, 2021 Author Share Posted March 6, 2021 10 hours ago, jess said: So I went through our hay paddocks after they were cut this year - picking out the weeds before it was baled. Thought at the time I was picking out docks & the odd scotchy ... now I realise it was probably poppy plants! Growing wild and free with their nasty opioid ways in my hay paddocks! Well bugger me! Who knew?! Not many do know. But the larger training operations don't make their own hay. If you have 150 horses in work at anyone time that is a lot of hay to check. Unfortunately the efforts you describe may not pick up contamination. Hence my opinion that there needs to be a look at the rules - if a positive to something that could be an environmental contaminate is returned then why not have minimum thresholds and testing that determines the origin of the contaminate. The current process in my opinion is a bit of a cop out. There wasn't even publication of the level of the substance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Hence my opinion that there needs to be a look at the rules - if a positive to something that could be an environmental contaminate is returned then why not have minimum thresholds and testing that determines the origin of the contaminate. The current process in my opinion is a bit of a cop out. Sounds expensive to implement. Hence the likelihood that nothing will change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 6, 2021 Author Share Posted March 6, 2021 15 minutes ago, Freda said: Sounds expensive to implement. Hence the likelihood that nothing will change. It isn't that expensive. Especially when you consider the expense to stakeholders of what happens now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.