List of the number of drug positives in Harness Racing in the last 10 years.

[Gammalite]

2 minutes ago, the galah said:

The point i have been trying to make to you,is testing does not pick up all performance enhancers.

But eventually it will.  I mentioned milkshakes and elephant juice through this thread , as they were relatively common in use, at some stage , but when accurate testing brought in they stopped overnight.

well actually time to time, each month or 2,  a MUG trainer will get caught still with a raised bicarb CO2 threshold and be bundled out !!!

THAT is why I said it is much more likely to be a desparado small stable breaking the rules, than the smarter BIG stables , (not stupid enough to do that ) using out-ruled treatments , earlier to you. 

Sure if you are using something that testing doesn't Pick up , Why not use it if it helps horse ??

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, the galah said:

The point i have been trying to make to you,is testing does not pick up all performance enhancers. Simple as that. The reference to the usa i thought was self explanatory.   You argue from both sides of the argument sometimes,i just stick to the same one.

You are 30 years behind the game.  Also you don't understand modern testing.  Testing today will pick up anomalies (irregularities) against a baseline of what is the normal.  Anything outside that will be drilled down to find why it is different.  

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

But eventually it will.  I mentioned milkshakes and elephant juice through this thread , as they were relatively common in use, at some stage , but when accurate testing brought in they stopped overnight.

well actually time to time, each month or 2,  a MUG trainer will get caught still with a raised bicarb CO2 threshold and be bundled out !!!

THAT is why I said it is much more likely to be a desparado small stable breaking the rules, than the smarter BIG stables , (not stupid enough to do that ) using out-ruled treatments , earlier to you. 

Sure if you are using something that testing doesn't Pick up , Why not use it if it helps horse ??

You are on to it Gammalite.  Were you ever a Trainer?  If so I would have had a horse racing with you.

The key in modern testing is looking for something that is NOT normal.  It isn't about looking for a specified list of things that they know about.  So they run a test on urine or blood and they reference that against normal.  If there is a spike on the spectrometer readout they investigate further.

As I posted with the Vamos Bebe thread if you wanted to (Owner, Trainer, Feds) you could prove the origin of the morphine by identifying the associated chemicals.

The RIU needs to up its game both for the good guys and the bad guys.  BTW where is Goober Godber? 

[Gammalite]

7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Testing today will pick up anomalies (irregularities) against a baseline of what is the normal.  Anything outside that will be drilled down to find why it is different. 

Spot on Chief !! the pre-race blood testing they do here is a 'Great guide' to show 'somethings up'. ! they may know not know exactly at the time , and lots of tests conducted to see what it is/ was.  AND you can be sure, the Stewards will be all over that trainers runners like a rash , the next time he lines up runners (after they receive notice of a blood irregularity from the Lab) and swabs will be taken all over the place. lol. 

[the galah]

22 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

You are 30 years behind the game.  Also you don't understand modern testing.  Testing today will pick up anomalies (irregularities) against a baseline of what is the normal.  Anything outside that will be drilled down to find why it is different.  

Tell the americans or saudi's that. Maybe they are cash strapped,and don't invest enough in their testing......or maybe,testing today does not keep up with all the latest performance enhancers

Edited March 4, 2021 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Spot on Chief !! the pre-race blood testing they do here is a 'Great guide' to show 'somethings up'. ! they may know not know exactly at the time , and lots of tests conducted to see what it is/ was.  AND you can be sure, the Stewards will be all over that trainers runners like a rash , the next time he lines up runners (after they receive notice of a blood irregularity from the Lab) and swabs will be taken all over the place. lol. 

Correct Gammalite.

A Trainer said to me "the reason the harness guys are getting away with doping is because they inject the PED close to race time and it's not picked up in testing".

Well..... my response to that was "how many times does the total quantity of blood in a mammal circulate through the body in a day?"  40 times.  More if you are an athlete.

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, the galah said:

Tell the americans or saudi's that

Tell them what specifically?

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, the galah said:

Tell the americans or saudi's that. Maybe they are cash strapped,and don't invest enough in their testing......or maybe,testing today does not keep up with all the latest performance enhancers

You forget to mention from your "extensive reading" that Clenbuterol was an approved substance when it was used.  It has only been moved to the prohibited substances list for THIS season.  Even under the old rules there were restrictions although they varied on a regional basis.  The drug wasn't illegal however the purpose for what it was used may have been outside of the rules.

The release noted that the current testing threshold for clenbuterol will be eliminated and its use will require regulatory approval in advance for a horse in racing or training prescribed the medication. Furthermore, the new standards will require the horse to be added to the Vet's List. Before being allowed to come off the list, the horse would need to test negative for clenbuterol in blood and urine and complete a satisfactory workout observed by a regulatory veterinarian.

Under the current regional rule, clenbuterol may not be administered to a horse within 14 days of a race, and the concentration of the drug in a post-race blood sample may not exceed 140 picograms/ml.

Clenbuterol has been allowed as a Therapeutic in Thoroughbred racing because of its use as a bronchodilator but the compounded drug can be abused to improve performance because of its efficacy at building lean muscle mass.

"The commission's hair testing review found that clenbuterol was administered to a substantial number of these horses without evidence of a medical prescription," Palmer said. "In addition to being a useful therapeutic medication to treat respiratory disease, clenbuterol has re-partitioning effects that can enhance muscle development. Clenbuterol should not be administered to racehorses without a legitimate treatment plan and a proper diagnosis. This new rule will eliminate the improper use of clenbuterol."

 

[Chief Stipe]

Now what does the USA Clenbuterol "scandal" have to do with NZ?  Not much.

It has been on the Sport Drug Foundation watch list for at least 5 years.  It is approved as a therapeutic drug in horses to aid breathing - bit like a inhaler for horses.  To infer that it is being misused in NZ is naive or infers that the RIU testing regime is not up to standard.  Clenbuterol has a clearly defined chemical signature that is easily picked up.

There isn't any conclusive evidence that it actually does aid in the development of lean muscle or increases horse performance.  Indeed there is contra-evidence to suggest it does the opposite.

https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/kentucky-advances-clenbuterol-regulations-turfway-switches-weekly-race-days/

[the galah]

 

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Now what does the USA Clenbuterol "scandal" have to do with NZ?  Not much.

 

 I will say it one last time.

You have been arguing that testing now days can pick nearly everything. I gave you an example of  current cases where its alleged there was the manufacturing,distributing and use of blocking agents,masking agents,epo agents,etc.And that testing was not picking up its use. Further,its alleged these products  had been distributed to many countries,including australia.  

The investigation was carried out by the FBI who worked in conjunction with  a private investigator,who had been funded by the likes of jeff gural(meadowlands)

 The announcement of the uncovering of the widespread use of performance enhancers created divisions within racing authorities,with many saying racing was clean,while the couple of groups who had helped fund part of the investigation saying that the indictments issued were proof of what they knew to be true,and that the bury your head in the sand attitude of many within the racing industry just enabled those who were dishonest.   

Thats all been widely reported if you don't believe it.

Edited March 4, 2021 by the galah

[Noodlum]

3 hours ago, the galah said:

 

  I gave you an example of  current cases where its alleged there was the manufacturing,distributing and use of blocking agents,masking agents,epo agents,etc.And that testing was not picking up its use. Further,its alleged these products  had been distributed to many countries,including australia.  

The investigation was carried out by the FBI who worked in conjunction with  a private investigator,who had been funded by the likes of jeff gural(meadowlands)

But you spun the example you gave into something it wasn't or isn't.

The drug in question was Clenbuterol.  It was detectable and was detected.  

It is a a legitimate therapeutic drug for the treatment of bronchial conditions in horses.

The issue is allegedly it was used not as a performance enhancing drug but as a drug to promote an increase in lean muscle mass.

But you are fixated on your angle and can't see past that.

In many respects the FBI engagement is similar to the Police involvement to INCA.

So to spell it out for you the drug Clenbuterol is a legitimate therapeutic drug but may have been misused.  Even then there is little evidence to support that it does offer any advantage.

[Noodlum]

Oh and before you bang on about it not being able to be detected explain how the Louisiana 2nd place getter was disqualified because of it in 2003!  Thats 18 years ago!

The issue has been around differences in thresholds between different jurisdictions in the USA and globally.

[Noodlum]

Further you argue that the drugs that were used were undetectable.  That is totally implausible with the sophistication of modern testing.

Now what were the alleged drugs that they were indicted on?  Surely somewhere in all the FBI investigations they found something that was measurable.  We know that Clenbuterol was found but what else?

If you have information on the evidence of these chemicals then post the links.  All the indictments talk about are vague references to nicknames for them.  

[the galah]

 

6 minutes ago, Noodlum said:

Further you argue that the drugs that were used were undetectable.  That is totally implausible with the sophistication of modern testing.

Now what were the alleged drugs that they were indicted on?  Surely somewhere in all the FBI investigations they found something that was measurable.  We know that Clenbuterol was found but what else?

If you have information on the evidence of these chemicals then post the links.  All the indictments talk about are vague references to nicknames for them.  

Ok. you don't seem to find the indictments issued by the FBI credible. All the recorded conversations,horse deaths,etc, Your not a believer.  And i don't know how to post a link,and prefer it that way.

Edited March 5, 2021 by the galah