JCA - M Kerr Decision

[Karrots]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

Karrots don't be sucked in by a particular narrative - it pays to follow up and check the facts. 

Fair call. Did you know, you guys distracted me lol, I wanted to watch just 1 race today, the last at Wairio TC, as saw an article about a horse in HRNZ. But got caught up on here lol. Missed it lol. 

 

[Gammalite]

26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

As you keep telling us the RIU is doing a great job so if there had been any issues surely they would have been uncovered

I hope you are true there Chief. Another great result hopefully. I thought the bloke was banned from betting in NZ? Therefore someone was dealing/ dealt with Kerr gambling issue?

How would the RIU keep up with gambling addicts going overseas to bet? trace on computer maybe but is that legal?

25 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Hasn't raced for a year!

Forgotten Highway 30 starts for 6 wins prior to Sept 2019 for the Kerr stable. 

 Past year and a half racing in the Wild west WA 24 starts for 6 wins . so about the same record for him overall.

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Forgotten Highway 30 starts for 6 wins prior to Sept 2019 for the Kerr stable. 

 Past year and a half racing in the Wild west WA 24 starts for 6 wins . so about the same record for him overall.

Yes when I wrote that comment I immediately thought that it might have been exported.  So it hasn't "lost a leg"!

8 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

I hope you are true there Chief. Another great result hopefully. I thought the bloke was banned from betting in NZ? Therefore someone was dealing/ dealt with Kerr gambling issue?

 

8 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

How would the RIU keep up with gambling addicts going overseas to bet? trace on computer maybe but is that legal?

I was being somewhat facetious with regard to the RIU performance.

My point was in relation to license holders.  The data matching required is well with the rules of racing/gambling and they are quick to do it when there is a hint of "match fixing".  I would have thought that a red flag would have been raised by both the amount being bet and lost and the fact that he was a license holder.

There is no mention in the judgement that Kerr had been banned from betting in New Zealand.  The RIU Betting Analyst only approached Ladbrookes for information after the RIU had "received information" from a third party i.e. a snitch.  It was made clear in the judgement that NZ has a formal agreement with overseas bookies to legally receive the information it requested.  BUT this was only AFTER someone had snitched.  It isn't that hard to proactively monitor for issues especially when you have full time staff hired to do the analysis!!!!! 

[the galah]

37 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

 

Forgotten Highway 30 starts for 6 wins prior to Sept 2019 for the Kerr stable. 

 Past year and a half racing in the Wild west WA 24 starts for 6 wins . so about the same record for him overall.

forgotten highway started 7th favorite at about its 20th start in the 2018 nz cup. It only had a couple of more runs in nz after that then was sold.

Its australian record is not impressive for a horse the australians would have paid big money for.

Chief,no point debating form with you. If you can't see it,then keep backing the former kerr trained horses,then get back to me how you go.

Edited April 17, 2021 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

15 minutes ago, the galah said:

Its australian record is not impressive for a horse the australians would have paid big money for.

 

Supposition and very doubtful to be backed up by fact.  I guess though it wouldn't be too hard to find a West Australian sucker.

15 minutes ago, the galah said:

Chief,no point debating form with you. If you can't see it,then keep backing the former kerr trained horses,then get back to me how you go.

Galah pushing your narrative and repeating the same BS over and over won't fool me nor make what you say true.  I presented the facts above and they are undeniable.  One of the horses you pointed out to have "lost a leg" last won a race 9 starts and 18 MONTHS ago.  Only 2 of those starts have been in a new stable!!!!!!  FFS how the hell would YOU interpret THAT form?  

"ooohhh" says The Galah "a big drop in form after two starts in a new stable.  Must have been on good juice at Kerr's".....

 

[the galah]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

Supposition and very doubtful to be backed up by fact.  I guess though it wouldn't be too hard to find a West Australian sucker.

Galah pushing your narrative and repeating the same BS over and over won't fool me nor make what you say true.  I presented the facts above and they are undeniable.  One of the horses you pointed out to have "lost a leg" last won a race 9 starts and 18 MONTHS ago.  Only 2 of those starts have been in a new stable!!!!!!  FFS how the hell would YOU interpret THAT form?  

"ooohhh" says The Galah "a big drop in form after two starts in a new stable.  Must have been on good juice at Kerr's".....

 

Like the picture. But don't take up punting for a living ,because you won't last long if you miss obvious form changes.

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, the galah said:

Like the picture. But don't take up punting for a living ,because you won't last long if you miss obvious form changes.

OK then expert - detail for the rest of us where they significant form changes were in the three horses that you described "as losing a leg since changing stables"?  A bet you can't because you can't put your biased narrative to one side and objectively analyse the form.  

Manhattan
A Bettor Act
A Delightful Act

Here is what I wrote so readers don't have to go back and search:

OK - you can't say A Bettor Act has "lost a leg" since changing stables.  It last won a race 10 October 2019 and has had one other placing since then in 9 starts!  It has only had two starts from the Williamson stable.  Its best success was when it was in the All Stars stable BEFORE going to Kerr!

Manattan has had only 7 starts yet to win a race and has only run two places 7 months ago!  Those two placing's were hardly in top fields!

You might have a point with A Delightful Act but it has hardly set the world on fire.  Last win was October last year and its next five starts returned one placing when it was in the Kerr stable.  Perhaps it has reached its mark.

[Gammalite]

7 minutes ago, the galah said:

Like the picture. But don't take up punting for a living ,because you won't last long if you miss obvious form changes.

Think I need that advice Galah . Brisbane Lions just won the AFL womens Grand Final. ! fantastic, (except I had Adelaide tickets all through the season at 6-1 and they were hot fav today) oh dear........

Then thought ok can get all that back on Verry Elleegant , the grand NZ mare in the Queen Elizabeth today as thought there was an obvious form change when she beat Addeyebb last start in the Ranvet. Wrong !! there goes another 350 lol...

Forgotten Highway even being in a NZ Cup on just 6 career wins , seems a joke. must of been paying $100 against Allstars???

[the galah]

 

39 minutes ago, the galah said:

Chief,no point debating form with you. If you can't see it,then keep backing the former kerr trained horses,then get back to me how you go.

 

[Rangatira]

39 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

was this taken at chertsey

doesn't look that threatening but i heard a chap got bailed up by one there

Edited April 17, 2021 by Rangatira

[the galah]

24 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Forgotten Highway even being in a NZ Cup on just 6 career wins , seems a joke. must of been paying $100 against Allstars???

think it was paying about $20.. Ran 2nd to cruz bromac in start before cup, with star galleria and ultimate machete 3rd and 4th. The start before that it had run 2nd to dream about me,with alta orlando 3rd. Both were group races. So they would have paid good money for it,but apart from 1 $20,000 race,it won 5 other $6000 to $7000 races in aussie.Lost a leg somewhere. Not as bad as smokin by of course.It lost 2 legs.

Edited April 17, 2021 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

13 minutes ago, the galah said:

Not as bad as smokin by of course.It lost 2 legs

Do you do ANY research?  It got sick during its first prep in OZ.  Was sold on Gavelhouse in September for AUD$27,000.  

[the galah]

7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Do you do ANY research?  It got sick during its first prep in OZ.  Was sold on Gavelhouse in September for AUD$27,000.  

You obviously don't. Go watch its videos before they sold it and said it got sick.. Cutting their losses. Like i said earlier,not talking form anymore,as your not up with the play. 

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, the galah said:

You obviously don't. Go watch its videos before they sold it and said it got sick.. Cutting their losses. Like i said earlier,not talking form anymore,as your not up with the play. 

It's called ducking for cover on your part when you are called out.

Still waiting for your explanation on the form of:

Manhattan

A Bettor Act

A Delightful Act 

You see some of us just don't accept your narrative is true just because you can post it on the internet.

BTW I suppose you see ghosts with the substantial drop in form when A Bettor Act went from the All Stars to Kerr.

[Karrots]

Smokin's form line in Oz reads. 

993190 wonder when it got sick. Doesn’t seem to have raced again.

Fun fact see its NZ owners were Few Beers Bit Of A Yarn Syndicate.

[the galah]

9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

BTW I suppose you see ghosts with the substantial drop in form when A Bettor Act went from the All Stars to Kerr.

I'm getting a headache.Banging my head against the wall is not doing me any good. But i will comment on your post one last time. A better act had 4 wins and a second in its first 5 starts for kerr. So it did not have a drop off in form when it went to kerr.

[Chief Stipe]

14 hours ago, the galah said:

A better act had 4 wins and a second in its first 5 starts for kerr. So it did not have a drop off in form when it went to kerr.

You are really struggling Galah.

You have now switched the debate away from your original assertion to something different.  Your original assertion was that "when A Bettor Act left M Kerr's training it lost a leg" - the implication being that its form dropped considerably.

Arguably you could say its best form was when it was with the All Stars as a 2 yr old when it won a Group race and was Group placed earning $60k for the season.  Its best season in terms of earnings.

It went to the Dickie's and then to Kerr.  Yes it did win 4 races in the 2019 season for Kerr.  However, and this is the point that you choose to ignore, it last won a race in October 2019.  That race was an easy R62-R74 race at Addington.  The next SEVEN starts were with Mitchell Kerr for ONE second placing.  The race after it won was the Kaikoura Cup where it finished 7th.  The last run for 2019 was the Junior FFA during Cup Week where it ran 32 lengths LAST.

It didn't have another start until TEN months later.  In the next 5 starts it had only one placing a 2nd at Invercargill in a R60-R80 race.  It finished 5th, 7th, 11th and 11th in its remaining starts for Mitchell Kerr.  Everytime it has tried to step up to the next class it has failed abysmally.  

So to spell it out for you once again - the horse didn't "lose a leg" once leaving Kerr's stable - there is Zero evidence for that. 

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

You are really struggling Galah.

You have now switched the debate away from your original assertion to something different.  Your original assertion was that "when A Bettor Act left M Kerr's training it lost a leg" - the implication being that its form dropped considerably.

Arguably you could say its best form was when it was with the All Stars as a 2 yr old when it won a Group race and was Group placed earning $60k for the season.  Its best season in terms of earnings.

It went to the Dickie's and then to Kerr.  Yes it did win 4 races in the 2019 season for Kerr.  However, and this is the point that you choose to ignore, it last won a race in October 2019.  That race was an easy R62-R74 race at Addington.  The next SEVEN starts were with Mitchell Kerr for ONE second placing.  The race after it won was the Kaikoura Cup where it finished 7th.  The last run for 2019 was the Junior FFA during Cup Week where it ran 32 lengths LAST.

It didn't have another start until TEN months later.  In the next 5 starts it had only one placing a 2nd at Invercargill in a R60-R80 race.  It finished 5th, 7th, 11th and 11th in its remaining starts for Mitchell Kerr.  Everytime it has tried to step up to the next class it has failed abysmally.  

So to spell it out for you once again - the horse didn't "lose a leg" once leaving Kerr's stable - there is Zero evidence for that. 

I really think you have no idea about how to analyse form,and compare previous performances of horses and the class of horse they ran against. Thats what i believe.Your arguing with someone who makes a living analysing form. I know what i'm talking about.

You think someone who is cleary very,very dishonest is somehow squeaky clean when it comes to training horses.

What world do you live in? 

Thats the last post i make on this topic. 

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, the galah said:

I really think you have no idea about how to analyse form,and compare previous performances of horses and the class of horse they ran against. Thats what i believe.Your arguing with someone who makes a living analysing form. I know what i'm talking about.

Really you make a "living from analysing form"?  Must be damn easy to do that as what you posted about Manhattan, A Bettor Act and A Delightful Act was crap!!!  I'd love to hear what other Harness BOAY'ers think about our respective form analysis of A Bettor Act. 

2 minutes ago, the galah said:

You think someone who is cleary very,very dishonest is somehow squeaky clean when it comes to training horses.

Why don't you really say what you think?  You won't actually say "I believe Mitchell Kerr was using performance enhancing drugs on his horses!" You can't though because you have zero evidence.  All you can do is make inferences, supposition and innuendo.

One day you may see a modicum of evidence emerge and then you will jump up and down "I told you so, I was right and it has been going on for years!"  But at the moment you have nothing.

As I have posted elsewhere on BOAY I'm really interested to see what substance the RIU found in their clandestine raid on Alford.  But so far there has been nothing, zip, nada, NOTHING!

[NZRacing]

Quote

Can he name one person who approached the NZ TAB tab with their concerns about having him banned from betting.

100% I know someone contacted the NZ TAB to inform them that they considered Kerr had a gambling problem that needed urgent addressing. This was made when Kerr was a teenager Junior Driver. Sadly as we all know the end result now but it's clear that the NZ TAB didn't agree with the person who made that call. Obviously the so called Betting Expert and NZ TAB knew better. I would hasten to say Kerr was never approached by the NZ TAB otherwise this would have got mentioned in the JCA report. You wouldn't as a responsible gambling host after a customer was contacted regarding possible gambling problems allow them to close and re-open betting accounts.   

The TAB had a moral obligation to help, if not for any other reason than to cover their own bases.

 

 

[the galah]

2 hours ago, NZRacing said:

100% I know someone contacted the NZ TAB to inform them that they considered Kerr had a gambling problem that needed urgent addressing. This was made when Kerr was a teenager Junior Driver. Sadly as we all know the end result now but it's clear that the NZ TAB didn't agree with the person who made that call. Obviously the so called Betting Expert and NZ TAB knew better. I would hasten to say Kerr was never approached by the NZ TAB otherwise this would have got mentioned in the JCA report. You wouldn't as a responsible gambling host after a customer was contacted regarding possible gambling problems allow them to close and re-open betting accounts.   

The TAB had a moral obligation to help, if not for any other reason than to cover their own bases.

 

 

There is not enough detail in what you say to get a full picture of whether any fault lies with the NZ TAB. 

The NZ TAB already has a "Harm prevention and minimisation policy". 

If you read it, it shows the TAB can refuse to take bets from problem gamblers,problem gamblers can self exclude themselves for periods of 2 years,People can set their betting limits,Friends,family can contact the tab about problem gamblers,etc.

You say had the nz tab approached Kerr it would have got a mention in the jca report.Well what about the opposite,had kerr approached the nz tab? Appears no mention of that in the jca report.

My point is you are right to say lessons can be learnt, but to deflect blame onto the TAB,when Kerr himself provided no evidence of it to the JCA,seems unreasonable. Why the nz tab anyway,what about the australian agencies.

Edited April 19, 2021 by the galah

[Rangatira]

25 minutes ago, the galah said:

If you read it, it shows the TAB can refuse to take bets from problem gamblers

this wont be helping the the brodsters already flimsy case for not restricting him

[Robalan]

Kerr was not betting with the TAB, read his sentencing report

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, Robalan said:

Kerr was not betting with the TAB, read his sentencing report

 

That's not correct (2009-16) and regardless there is an information sharing agreement with oversea's bookies.  Why wasn't a red flag raised that a NZ Licensee and known problem gambler was betting with Ladbrookes?

 

On 14/04/2021 at 10:26 AM, Chief Stipe said:

(a) Between 2009 and 2016 the Respondent had opened and closed a number of accounts with the New Zealand TAB

 

[Gammalite]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

My point is you are right to say lessons can be learnt, but to deflect blame onto the TAB,when Kerr himself provided no evidence of it to the JCA,seems unreasonable. Why the nz tab anyway,what about the australian agencies.

Absolutely ! These addict gamblers (with cash from Fraud and deception) are cold, calculated actions, designed ONLY  for personal gain , and no thought of the loss or occurances to others because of their actions.

Just Like compulsive shop-lifters or drug sellers. Calculated actions. And not worthy of Sympathy or excuses as these are completely NON Necessary actions. (by anyone)

Mental health issues, IMO, would be had more by the victims ! also addicts that actually 'do something' that effects their brain, so therefore by definition are mentally effected. e.g Alcoholic, or a Druggie actually consuming the product from those calculating criminal actions. 

Tabs and betting agencies don't know where people get their money from , Guy has no Priors? not convicted yet?