JCA - M Kerr Decision

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

There is not enough detail in what you say to get a full picture of whether any fault lies with the NZ TAB. 

The NZ TAB already has a "Harm prevention and minimisation policy". 

If you read it, it shows the TAB can refuse to take bets from problem gamblers,problem gamblers can self exclude themselves for periods of 2 years,People can set their betting limits,Friends,family can contact the tab about problem gamblers,etc.

You say had the nz tab approached Kerr it would have got a mention in the jca report.Well what about the opposite,had kerr approached the nz tab? Appears no mention of that in the jca report.

My point is you are right to say lessons can be learnt, but to deflect blame onto the TAB,when Kerr himself provided no evidence of it to the JCA,seems unreasonable. Why the nz tab anyway,what about the australian agencies.

The issue isn't about deflecting blame or even sharing responsibility.  It is about what systems are in place to proactively monitor license holders and to limit harm to the industry.  Ultimately it doesn't excuse Kerr's behaviour but both TAB-NZ and the RIU have a legislated responsibility to limit harm and maintain the integrity of the industry. 

In my opinion they either act proactively, re-actively or both.  It would appear even though they have sufficient power to act proactively they don't.  The fact that they don't is reflective of the culture of both organisations.  TAB-NZ encourage losing punters (they discourage winning punters) and the RIU has a Police culture of catch and punish as opposed to prevention.

So Kerr was spending large sums of money gambling - at first with TAB-NZ and latterly with an overseas bookmaker.  When he had accounts with TAB-NZ they were, according to @nzhorseracing, informed that he had problems with gambling.  One would hope that given the rules around licensee's betting the RIU and HRNZ were notified by TAB-NZ of Kerr's problems.  That is a proactive approach.  It would appear that this didn't occur or if it did no action was taken.

Now the RIU has an information sharing agreement with HRNZ and overseas bookies.  Supposedly the RIU Betting Analyst is monitoring licensee betting.  Again one would hope that this was done on a proactive basis rather than waiting for the 0800 Snitch line to deliver.  

The serious question that should be asked the RIU is why wasn't a red flag raised through data matching of Kerr's offshore gambling activities in the TWO YEARS that he was spending very large amounts?  Given he was a licensee.  I fail to understand WHY a red flag wasn't raised.  The data matching isn't very hard to do.  So it begs the question is the RIU Betting Analyst incompetent or did the RIU know and nothing was proactively done about it?

It appears incompetence and inadequate systems rule the day as according to the evidence it took a third party snitch to notify the RIU to seek the information from the overseas bookmaker.  All it would require is a regular query run across the bookmaker's client accounts looking for matching NZ licensees.  The a further query matching amount spent.

What sort of message does the evidence presented in the judgement send to other licensees?  "Don't worry about getting around the betting rules as a Driver just punt offshore - the RIU obviously don't have clue!"

[Rangatira]

16 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

These addict gamblers (with cash from Fraud and deception) are cold, calculated actions, designed ONLY  for personal gain , and no thought of the loss or occurances to others because of their actions.

aren't they just trying to get square ?

[Gammalite]

9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The issue isn't about deflecting blame or even sharing responsibility.  It is about what systems are in place to proactively monitor license holders and to limit harm to the industry.  Ultimately it doesn't excuse Kerr's behaviour but both TAB-NZ and the RIU have a legislated responsibility to limit harm and maintain the integrity of the industry. 

In my opinion they either act proactively, re-actively or both.  It would appear even though they have sufficient power to act proactively they don't.  The fact that they don't is reflective of the culture of both organisations.  TAB-NZ encourage losing punters (they discourage winning punters) and the RIU has a Police culture of catch and punish as opposed to prevention.

So Kerr was spending large sums of money gambling - at first with TAB-NZ and latterly with an overseas bookmaker.  When he had accounts with TAB-NZ they were, according to @nzhorseracing, informed that he had problems with gambling.  One would hope that given the rules around licensee's betting the RIU and HRNZ were notified by TAB-NZ of Kerr's problems.  That is a proactive approach.  It would appear that this didn't occur or if it did no action was taken.

Now the RIU has an information sharing agreement with HRNZ and overseas bookies.  Supposedly the RIU Betting Analyst is monitoring licensee betting.  Again one would hope that this was done on a proactive basis rather than waiting for the 0800 Snitch line to deliver.  

The serious question that should be asked the RIU is why wasn't a red flag raised through data matching of Kerr's offshore gambling activities in the TWO YEARS that he was spending very large amounts?  Given he was a licensee.  I fail to understand WHY a red flag wasn't raised.  The data matching isn't very hard to do.  So it begs the question is the RIU Betting Analyst incompetent or did the RIU know and nothing was proactively done about it?

It appears incompetence and inadequate systems rule the day as according to the evidence it took a third party snitch to notify the RIU to seek the information from the overseas bookmaker.  All it would require is a regular query run across the bookmaker's client accounts looking for matching NZ licensees.  The a further query matching amount spent.

What sort of message does the evidence presented in the judgement send to other licensees?  "Don't worry about getting around the betting rules as a Driver just punt offshore - the RIU obviously don't have clue!"

Have you ever heard of having an Alias to do certain things?  like Gambling with other peoples' money meant for something else (like share's in a horse) or writing to a forum ?  oh wait hang on ?!...............

[Chief Stipe]

12 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Tabs and betting agencies don't know where people get their money from , Guy has no Priors? not convicted yet? 

Correct they don't know where the money comes from but under global agreements on Anti Money Laundering laws they have to monitor large sums of money put through their accounts and report to a central agency.  The trigger amounts are not just single deposits but collective amounts over time.  It is a very easy step to data match against licensees especially given the RIU has information sharing agreements with bookies AND the code administrations.

Geez no wonder INCA is struggling to find anything! 

[Gammalite]

3 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

aren't they just trying to get square ?

hahahaha yeah right !! like Brodie lol

[Rangatira]

5 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

hahahaha yeah right !! like Brodie lol

peter huxley (left) a classic case

and he thought he did it but alas

Edited April 19, 2021 by Rangatira

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Have you ever heard of having an Alias to do certain things?  like Gambling with other peoples' money meant for something else (like share's in a horse) or writing to a forum ?  oh wait hang on ?!...............

Gammalite - have you opened an online account with a bookmaker?  Do you remember the ID hoops you had to jump through?  According to the JCA evidence there didn't seem to be any issues with getting information on Kerr's betting at Ladbrokes.

Do you reckon Kerr was betting on credit with Ladbrokes?  More hoops to jump through if he was.

Here are the terms and requirements for have a Ladbrokes account.  Good luck coming up with a false identity!

[Chief Stipe]

More from Ladbrokes T's and C's.

[Gammalite]

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Gammalite - have you opened an online account with a bookmaker?  Do you remember the ID hoops you had to jump through?  According to the JCA evidence there didn't seem to be any issues with getting information on Kerr's betting at Ladbrokes.

Do you reckon Kerr was betting on credit with Ladbrokes?  More hoops to jump through if he was.

In today's world with the amount of on-line identities and dishonesty, do you really think people are being honest all the time Chief ? a lot of track covering must go on ?

you and I and the nice folk at BOAY probably respectful and honest , but while you are committing FRAUD , more deceptive measures are applied I would think? Sometimes more than one Bad Egg in a basket too.

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

In today's world with the amount of on-line identities and dishonesty, do you really think people are being honest all the time Chief ? a lot of track covering must go on ?

You miss the point Gammalite.  If the RIU was able to identify Kerr's account to Labrokes once there was an issue why couldn't they do it proactively BEFORE there was an unrelated issue?  Doesn't say much for the RIU systems, their Betting Analyst nor the $10m spent per annum by them maintaining the integrity of the sport.

Not to mention the millions spent on INCA to find nothing.  Bear in mind Kerr's gambling was going on during the whole INCA investigation!!!  Keystone Cops spring to mind!

[Gammalite]

6 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

  If the RIU was able to identify Kerr's account to Labrokes once there was an issue why couldn't they do it proactively BEFORE there was an unrelated issue? 

The issue was about the complaints from disgruntled stable owners ?, being ripped off in the way they were.

Surely the money was WELL SPENT by then? (time when RIU becomes involved)

Before these complaints are raised , surely the RIU has No right to question someone on what they do with their training fees, money from all sources.? Lot's of trainers and Jockeys probably have 'Offshore' accounts I imagine. 

The RIU can't question every one with an account where they got the money ?grandma inheritence lol????

They Can however use the Betting trends and bets placed to use as evidence in race Fixing allegations. 

[Chief Stipe]

14 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

The issue was about the complaints from disgruntled stable owners ?, being ripped off in the way they were.

Surely the money was WELL SPENT by then? (time when RIU becomes involved)

So what was the point of even asking the RIU Betting Analyst to be involved in the JCA hearing?  What the money was spent on is irrelevant to the fact that Kerr committed fraud.  In my opinion that part of the "evidence" is an arse covering exercise by the RIU to give the impression that they are on top of things - which they obviously aren't.

16 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Before these complaints are raised , surely the RIU has No right to question someone on what they do with their training fees, money from all sources.? Lot's of trainers and Jockeys probably have 'Offshore' accounts I imagine. 

You obviously haven't read the extracts from the T's and C's for Ladbrokes that I posted.  The RIU has EVERY right to question a LICENSEE about their activities related to racing and especially about their gambling.  Maybe "lot's of trainers and jockey's have offshore accounts" but wouldn't you expect the RIU to be monitoring them?  

21 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

The RIU can't question every one with an account where they got the money ?grandma inheritence lol????

I'm not expecting them to question EVERYONE with an account but surely there were enough red flags to question Kerr as a licensed trainer?

1. Kerr identified as a problem gambler to TAB-NZ;
2. Kerr is a HRNZ licensed Trainer and Driver;
3. Kerr opens and closes numerous accounts 2009-16;
4. Kerr spending on average $50k per month with Ladbrokes;
5. Kerr as a Trainer won a total of $245k during the 2020 season - 10% of that is $24,500 i.e. half of what he spent with Ladbroke's;
6. Where was all the money coming from?;
7. Information/data is supposedly shared between the betting agencies, HRNZ and the RIU with the intent of proactively ensuring the integrity of NZ racing.

Did anyone from HRNZ and the RIU ever look into or ask Kerr about his gambling PRIOR to a third party complaint in 2021?

According to the evidence presented to the JCA it appears not!  All we see is a retrospective investigation that adds nothing, achieves nothing other than adding another salacious angle to Kerr's demise!

Don't you expect better from those running the industry?  The RIU are quick to play the cops in flak jackets hiding in hedges and convince their Police mates to do wire taps yet don't seem to be able to do what is within their own jurisdiction and ask some simple questions?  Yeah na better to have lots of road kill littered all over the place than act proactively.

[Chief Stipe]

33 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

They Can however use the Betting trends and bets placed to use as evidence in race Fixing allegations. 

So how do they identify those if they are not information sharing but waiting on the 800 Snitch line to alert them?

[Brodie]

4 hours ago, the galah said:

There is not enough detail in what you say to get a full picture of whether any fault lies with the NZ TAB. 

The NZ TAB already has a "Harm prevention and minimisation policy". 

If you read it, it shows the TAB can refuse to take bets from problem gamblers,problem gamblers can self exclude themselves for periods of 2 years,People can set their betting limits,Friends,family can contact the tab about problem gamblers,etc.

You say had the nz tab approached Kerr it would have got a mention in the jca report.Well what about the opposite,had kerr approached the nz tab? Appears no mention of that in the jca report.

My point is you are right to say lessons can be learnt, but to deflect blame onto the TAB,when Kerr himself provided no evidence of it to the JCA,seems unreasonable. Why the nz tab anyway,what about the australian agencies.

They don’t refuse bets from losing problem gamblers Galah.

They take large bets from certain punters that they know who are consistently losing!

They refuse to take bets of any significance  from certain punters who show any sign of consistently winning!

The affairs of Mitch Kerr shouldve been investigated by the RIU long before he handed in his license.

[Gammalite]

8 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So how do they identify those if they are not information sharing but waiting on the 800 Snitch line to alert them?

The stewards Identify a suspicious race obviously. Driving tactics etc, THEN the betting into that race is examined.

Very High Profile trainer Vicki Rassmussen got a year DQ , and partner leading driver Shane Graham 2 years from an odd $3000 bet on a runner in a midweek not long ago. The bet came from a disgraced former Trainer . 

They weren't even the ones betting. Stewards can do their job Chief !!

do you want betting agencies to snitch on their customers to the RIU ??? that's just silly. like I say , they can use their missus name or whatever anyway, for the account. 

It's ONLY when a dodgey race happens (in the view of the stewards) or someone reports something like Kerr's owners , that a 'MISadventure ' has taken place. Otherwise just Brodie having a bet ? report to RIU lol?????

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

do you want betting agencies to snitch on their customers to the RIU ??? that's just silly. like I say , they can use their missus name or whatever anyway, for the account. 

Gammalite don't you understand that betting agencies have statutory obligations to meet than involves sharing information not only involving AML but also racing integrity.  THEY are not required to "snitch" they are just required to provide the information.  The agencies tasked with monitoring AML and racing integrity interpret the data.

Bookies are licensed to provide betting on racing events - there are agreements reached between the racing jurisdiction and the agencies to share data.

How hard is it for those tasked with monitoring the integrity of the industry to check what their licensees are doing?  I bet some jurisdictions are doing this.  As for putting the transactions in someone else's name - yep that can be done but that then relies on another person being complicit.  But that wasn't the case with Kerr was it?

[Gammalite]

22 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

'm not expecting them to question EVERYONE with an account but surely there were enough red flags to question Kerr as a licensed trainer?

1. Kerr identified as a problem gambler to TAB-NZ;
2. Kerr is a HRNZ licensed Trainer and Driver;
3. Kerr opens and closes numerous accounts 2009-16;
4. Kerr spending on average $50k per month with Ladbrokes;
5. Kerr as a Trainer won a total of $245k during the 2020 season - 10% of that is $24,500 i.e. half of what he spent with Ladbroke's;
6. Where was all the money coming from?;
7. Information/data is supposedly shared between the betting agencies, HRNZ and the RIU with the intent of proactively ensuring the integrity of NZ racing.

Love your thoughts there Chief. would of been great for the 50 people Kerr has effected to of got the money first.

Just doesn't happen like that. People Lie. They got money from grannie. Kerr could say anything. what would they do ? take all horses off him immeadiately he has a bet anywhere?  he was shrewd. 

I know you want the RIU to be shrewder. But it's tough when people aren't honest. 

i don't think Betting companies should report to RIU at all. !!!!!!! Privacy please.

The RIU need to ask betting companies for records of something they are investigating. (e.g like for Kerr's owners, or the QLD case with Rassmussen after dodgey race and betting , etc) 

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

THEY are not required to "snitch" they are just required to provide the information.  The agencies tasked with monitoring AML and racing integrity interpret the data.

I know what you are trying to say , and I agree would be great. But there are a LOT OF BETS.

what if someone in the KRUG camp put 10k on Krug overseas.? Is that betting agency spose to ring the RIU and say "Hey there's a 10k bet on KRUG !! look out for trouble !!"   no, ain't gunna happen.

Kerr might of been betting on gallopers in large pools !!!! not gunna show up individually. Why report him? Plenty of addict gamblers are gambling everyday. Report them all you say ?? com'on ....

[Rangatira]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

hahahaha yeah right !! like Brodie lol

brodster more like vo rogue

so i can't really blame the tab for saying enoughs enough

[Chief Stipe]

11 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Kerr might of been betting on gallopers in large pools !!!! not gunna show up individually. Why report him? Plenty of addict gamblers are gambling everyday. Report them all you say ?? com'on ....

Kerr was LOSING $50,000 A MONTH!  Hell knows what his turnover was!!!  Why report him?  THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO REPORT HIM - all the RIU needed to do on a regular basis was a data match of our licensees against their client base and check either turnover and/or losses.  It is perfectly within the rules.  They did this AFTER the fact so it must have been easy to identify him.

Hell Gammalite are you that naive?  Did you know that these agencies have a STATUTORY obligation to report individual turnover that is over a certain amount per transaction and over an accumulated amount?  Sure the authorities don't dig deep unless there is a red flag but it is perfectly within privacy laws to do it.  Be afraid they could be looking at your account now!

[Gammalite]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Kerr was LOSING $50,000 A MONTH!  Hell knows what his turnover was!!!  Why report him?  THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO REPORT HIM - all the RIU needed to do on a regular basis was a data match of our licensees against their client base and check either turnover and/or losses.  It is perfectly within the rules.  They did this AFTER the fact so it must have been easy to identify him.

He must of had some wins and some losses. YES , that is an enormous amount and even Kerry Packer wouldn't of been happy with that.! sounds worse than my $500 per week budget lol......

Hey what if they (RIU) knew of these bets. ? Are they intitled to shut down his work as trainer ? as far as they know he is collecting training fees for real owners on real horses . How would the bets 'Give away' the deception ?? 

[Gammalite]

14 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

brodster more like vo rogue

so i can't really blame the tab for saying enoughs enough

The great Vo Rogue !    there's a memory. his trainer Vic Rail died of Hendra virus, contracted from his horses.

I was helping with autopsy of a few of Vic's horses when we found out It Killed People. Bit of a scary moment back in 1994 . was like a covid type death and we were isolated for 3 days. very scary.

[Rangatira]

2 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

The great Vo Rogue !    there's a memory. his trainer Vic Rail died of Hendra virus, contracted from his horses.

I was helping with autopsy of a few of Vic's horses when we found out It Killed People. Bit of a scary moment back in 1994 . was like a covid type death and we were isolated for 3 days. very scary.

was very sad

[Karrots]

2 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Have you ever heard of having an Alias to do certain things?  

Hey Gamms,

I wasn't going to say anything, was going to leave it, but this has come up, just wanted to say, dink you maybe poking bear on other site. I like hang on thats so Gamms. Then I like ohhh, ohhh no. Oh Gamms. 

Dis me talking Karrots as your friend giving you dat tip 😉

Suspect, 1 has been told you a good poster on here, so has not bitten back yet. Left it ... but I dink you maybe pushing it. 

[Gammalite]

13 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

was very sad

Thanks Ranga yes . 4 lovely people died of the 7 that contracted the Hendra virus in Queensland.

Was like a mini Covid warning. Quite a number of horses died from the Flying Fox virus. A vaccination was developed many years later in 2012. For Horses !!! gad it didn't get any worse in people.

EVERY night , great flights of Flying Foxes still glide over the Brisbane suburbs to feeding grounds , then back to their roosts. I hope every night, they don't stop over in a HORSE Feed Bin somewhere on their travels?

[Gammalite]

28 minutes ago, Karrots said:

, 1 has been told you a good poster on here, so has not bitten back yet. Left it ... but I dink you maybe pushing it. 

thanks Karrots , yeah Pokie Bear seem to think everyone 'doing their Jobs' is guilty of malpractice , which is ridiculous . press report (as the Galah says) , RIU investigate , drivers drive. what's the problem ?

No good sticking up for people like Kerr , who have let the side down. These things happen , lots of gambling junkies out there lol.... , Brodie wants to turn over a million per annum lol.., no wonder barred/banned , whatever .

Whatever happened to the fun ?? I still enjoy it . and you too obviously !. looking forward to some more great racing soon !!!