Michael Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: It is clearly apparent why racing in general is in trouble when ex-racing administrators such as yourself don't seem able to think outside a small square box. Your simplistic scenario is based on a fixed number of races AND a fixed number of horses. The reality is neither number is fixed. If you want to increase harness wagering revenue then you need to increase the amount of product i.e. the number of races AND the number of horses. Do you understand that? Now using your simplistic approach: If there are 120 horses available to race each week then that's 10 x 12 horse fields. Still with me? Now if 12 horses (10%) are forced to retire because they reach a mark that they can't earn a stake from then there are only 9 x 12 horse fields. Now assuming that each of the original 10 races earnt the same amount of wagering revenue if you subtract one race then your revenue drops by 10%. Still with me? Eventually the horse that you refer to winning 2 races and therefore limiting someone else from winning will find that not only have they reached their own mark quicker but that there is less revenue and less races to compete in!! Don't forget that a field of 12 Aveross Spitfire's will still earn revenue for harness and at a profit by comparison to the Group races. No Chief Again you are muddying the waters It was you that posted "a simple solutions" and then in Capitals "CHANGE THE HANDICAPPING SYSTEM" That was all you offered You didn't offer another alternative which was to increase the number of races If you had then I wouldn't have posted Your increasing the number of races came later after I pointed out that issue with your 1 (note 1) proffered solution, that is, you added it after I posted Your example above is a bit piss poor anyway Depending on which Club the 10 races are run at, reducing from 10 to to 9 races might actually save money Follow that? Edited August 10, 2021 by Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 On 8/8/2021 at 2:15 PM, Karrotsisback said: Welcome back Thanks Karrots Tried, but it's a losing game 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karrotsisback Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 30 minutes ago, Michael said: Thanks Karrots Tried, but it's a losing game Your all good. Its great to see you are back posting. Knew it was you straight off the bat hence “welcome back”. Maybe shouldn’t of outed yourself tho, (altho each to their own) I wouldn’t know you are anyway, as don’t follow the gallops to check it out. To me you are poster M - a very good poster, who sometimes gets a bit grumpy lol. But hey sometimes I get rage & peeps seem to tolerate me. Hey Iv learnt a really good strategy, if someone down votes you or replies to a post, BUT your view of that poster is low, therefore it doesn’t count, so you just ignore them as if they are not there 😁 Good to see you & Chief debating somewhat nicely, oppose full on rage with each other 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 59 minutes ago, Karrotsisback said: Your all good. Its great to see you are back posting. Knew it was you straight off the bat hence “welcome back”. Maybe shouldn’t of outed yourself tho, (altho each to their own) I wouldn’t know you are anyway, as don’t follow the gallops to check it out. To me you are poster M - a very good poster, who sometimes gets a bit grumpy lol. But hey sometimes I get rage & peeps seem to tolerate me. Hey Iv learnt a really good strategy, if someone down votes you or replies to a post, BUT your view of that poster is low, therefore it doesn’t count, so you just ignore them as if they are not there 😁 Good to see you & Chief debating somewhat nicely, oppose full on rage with each other 👍 Thanks Karrots "A bit grumpy", that's quite nice. I thought frequently grumpy would be more accurate but I'll try to be better for you! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted August 10, 2021 Author Share Posted August 10, 2021 16 hours ago, Michael said: It was you that posted "a simple solutions" and then in Capitals "CHANGE THE HANDICAPPING SYSTEM" The solutions are simple however it requires administrators present and past (like yourself) to climb down from the heady heights of Champagne Cup weeks, Presidents whiskey bars and stakes heavily subsidised by Pokies and look after grass roots racing. Where we are heading is akin to having a fancy shiny glass building sitting on sandy flooding crumbling foundations. Racing revenue needs to be spread more evenly and not skewed towards Group and Age grade racing. The bread and butter racing provides the revenue for the Champagne days. Harness is going down the same path as Thoroughbreds where they are neglecting the bread and butter racing at their peril. Some Harness supporters are all excited that it looks like Harness will have a race day like Thoroughbreds Karaka Millions Day aligned with the sales. Have they actually looked at the amount of subsidisation is required to have the Karaka Millions or how much revenue it returns to the industry? 16 hours ago, Michael said: That was all you offered You didn't offer another alternative which was to increase the number of races I gather that during your sabbatical from BOAY you stopped reading posts on BOAY. I have offered a number of solutions NOT alternatives. There are NO alternative solutions as in they are not mutually exclusive. The key metric in my opinion to focus on now is the retention of horse numbers in work and ultimately increasing those numbers. YOU CAN'T INCREASE THE NUMBER OF RACES UNLESS YOU INCREASE THE NUMBER OF HORSES!!!!! If 12 horses are lost to the industry (The Mane Drain) through retirement or being exported then that is over one season anywhere between 15 and 20 races that CANNOT be provided!!! Which leads to 15 to 20 races NOT earning revenue!!! 16 hours ago, Michael said: Depending on which Club the 10 races are run at, reducing from 10 to to 9 races might actually save money Follow that? FFS are you now advocating the reduction in the number of races? Where do you propose to get the extra revenue from to replace the races that are gone? Harness is getting screwed by not having enough races with big enough even fields available for the punter to wager on. This is even further skewed by the manipulation of the races that are exported and imported to favour Thoroughbreds on the main channel and Dogs on the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 The handicapping system is not working because jt is uneconomic to race horses in NZ, and owners are getting the stitch and new ones are not coming thru!! Addington Friday night has 2 races for $15k each and have 6 and 7 starters?????? There is a huge disparity in the ratings of the horses as well, one is 62 to 100!!!!!!! The other has about 20 points different and they are both mobiles! Things are definitely at the crossroads for whether we have much of an industry in the medium term, but for it to continue things have to be changed! We need owners to be able to afford to race horses, we need PUNTERS to bet on races to give income for the owners to have a chance! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted August 10, 2021 Author Share Posted August 10, 2021 10 minutes ago, Brodie said: There is a huge disparity in the ratings of the horses as well, one is 62 to 100!!!!!!! So are you backing the one rated 100 or the one rated 62? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 28 minutes ago, Brodie said: The handicapping system is not working because jt is uneconomic to race horses in NZ, and owners are getting the stitch and new ones are not coming thru!! Addington Friday night has 2 races for $15k each and have 6 and 7 starters?????? There is a huge disparity in the ratings of the horses as well, one is 62 to 100!!!!!!! The other has about 20 points different and they are both mobiles! Things are definitely at the crossroads for whether we have much of an industry in the medium term, but for it to continue things have to be changed! We need owners to be able to afford to race horses, we need PUNTERS to bet on races to give income for the owners to have a chance! Checked out the corresponding meeting last year . 9 races with average 9 runners for Addington. so about 15 more horses than this years mid August meeting this Friday. I think losing a race (8 this week compared to 9 last year) is a serious issue as chief says , instant 13% drop in punting revenue. Is so important to keep the RACE numbers up. As you will have the problem of horses starting Out of their depth against higher class runner. A problem Brodster and chief have spotted in last 2 posts. A very Bad thing. I wouldn't start My horse in a race where seemed no chance. out of depth. (Not counting group races with that comment) And the VERY concerning thing is 5 of the winners from that meeting 12 months ago have been SOLD OFF or now racing overseas in past year inc. Paramount princess, Arden Messi, Spellbound ,Alta sensation ,etc,etc and several placegetters too !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! never to be seen again? the quality dips dramatically as you lose the best ones, so some punters lose interest betting on the remainder. very concerning if not replaced with more quality runners??? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 As the field sizes drop off we then have the issue of punters not bothering as there is not enough in it to bother having a punt, even if you can get reasonable money on! The tote pools now on most races are abysmal and I believe there could be a touch of boredom going on for many. there is no way in hell that all meetings are making a profit and this becomes a huge worry. Good to have a meeting at Oamaru on Sunday for a change. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unhinged Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 On 8/9/2021 at 5:02 PM, Karrotsisback said: Im not overly wanting to get involved in this debate. Due to the sentence in bold. So this is all Ill input on the matter. Some things Iv read or watched videos on in the past 1-2 months ish. Are below … * Hasn’t there been a stake increase announced? Would this not go out to clubs to distribute … ? * Hasn’t there been an announcement of handicapping changes. Perhaps more might follow … ? * Aren’t they having those working focus groups involving clubs/trainers/owners/breeders all brainstorming & coming up with real hard hitting solutions. e.g. all open class racing will be done in 1 region then it moves to next region (North/South/Deep South). And all trainers with horses that grade are being highly encouraged to play the game so it works. Unhinged was sitting at a table I saw guess representing owners. Maybe he has some inside info. (Altho in saying that he may not be able to share atm). Curious prob like most to see what these changes are. Hopefully they are announced soon. Now that you are back M, no saying you will play the selections game, then dart off & not return til its over lol. Unhinged was at the table but only representing Westview, at this stage i can't disclose any of their ideas ,confidential at their request. It's vital we change and it's good HRNZ are starting to engage with it's stake holder's. Why are we racing Spellbound in Australia, absolutely from the advice from our trainers. Which was one more win before she departed and we would have no option to race her as a 78 rated horse against open class horses not only that she would be racing the boys. All her races to date in Australia have been Filly's and Mare's, 4 win's ,2nd and 3rd to date and over sixty thousand why wouldn't we. We turned down 200,000 for her recently and she will be coming home when she isn't competitive to breed from. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted August 11, 2021 Author Share Posted August 11, 2021 8 minutes ago, Unhinged said: Which was one more win before she departed and we would have no option to race her as a 78 rated horse against open class horses not only that she would be racing the boys. I guess that backs up my view on handicapping although I'm not in favour of concessions for mares in mixed fields. If you are rated at a certain level then that should be rating regardless of sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 2 hours ago, Unhinged said: Unhinged was at the table but only representing Westview, at this stage i can't disclose any of their ideas ,confidential at their request. It's vital we change and it's good HRNZ are starting to engage with it's stake holder's. Why are we racing Spellbound in Australia, absolutely from the advice from our trainers. Which was one more win before she departed and we would have no option to race her as a 78 rated horse against open class horses not only that she would be racing the boys. All her races to date in Australia have been Filly's and Mare's, 4 win's ,2nd and 3rd to date and over sixty thousand why wouldn't we. We turned down 200,000 for her recently and she will be coming home when she isn't competitive to breed from. Unhinged, more money than sense lol. Great that you are having success for you and other syndicate owners! You are an enthusiast and trying to bring newbies into the game even if it is as a small share in your syndicates! You can only do so much we need new initiatives and to entice people back oncourse or enthusiasm for the sport will wane!! I don’t bother as much for a couple of reasons which most are well aware of, but I am but one of many that have been driven away from being oncourse. The atmosphere that the track used to bring is long gone unfortunately! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: I guess that backs up my view on handicapping although I'm not in favour of concessions for mares in mixed fields. If you are rated at a certain level then that should be rating regardless of sex. Should they run a mares race each week NZ with preferential draw for their rating Chief?? I love this idea for mares that can win at the out of town tracks , so they are trying to breaking into the better prizemoney city races (say at Addington and Auckland) as Brisbane does at Albion each Saturday night. A mare 'Qualifying ' race is run and this week has range 48 rating (gets the 1 alley) through to a 70 rating (gets the 10 alley) Everyone gets a chance to win !! excellent. A race provided for mares !! excellent. Put a junior on and improve your barrier draw !! with a class concession !! gives a junior a go if desired ! excellent and excellent. obviously if you win too many of these you would be in against the boys (at equal rating) in the next class up. 80-90 rating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karrotsisback Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 2 hours ago, Unhinged said: Unhinged was at the table but only representing Westview, at this stage i can't disclose any of their ideas ,confidential at their request. It's vital we change and it's good HRNZ are starting to engage with it's stake holder's. Why are we racing Spellbound in Australia, absolutely from the advice from our trainers. Which was one more win before she departed and we would have no option to race her as a 78 rated horse against open class horses not only that she would be racing the boys. All her races to date in Australia have been Filly's and Mare's, 4 win's ,2nd and 3rd to date and over sixty thousand why wouldn't we. We turned down 200,000 for her recently and she will be coming home when she isn't competitive to breed from. Thx bud Unhinged for the latest update re confidential. Figured as much. Re Spellbound - Wow 200k nice offer - (but yes no doubt her offspring be worth a few bob). Nearly got that Group 1 win! So close 2nd. Was rooting for her. Maybe next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gammalite Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 9 minutes ago, Karrotsisback said: Thx bud Unhinged for the latest update re confidential. Figured as much. Re Spellbound - Wow 200k nice offer - (but yes no doubt her offspring be worth a few bob). Nearly got that Group 1 win! So close 2nd. Was rooting for her. Maybe next time. Geez thats some pretty poor spelling on your stamp there Karrots ! lol. a great old bloke named George Smith in NZ ,raced a crazy horse CONFIDENTIAL back when I was a lad. It was a crazy animal..lol.. how it won 3 races is a mystery never to be solved lol.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karrotsisback Posted August 11, 2021 Share Posted August 11, 2021 12 minutes ago, Gammalite said: Geez thats some pretty poor spelling on your stamp there Karrots ! lol. Your so funny sometimes mon mate Gamms. Hey you didn't like my Sweet Lou thread/post. If I could like my own post Id like that lol 😂😂😂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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