Racing Today 1 September 2021 - 2 NZ and 5 OZ meetings.

[nomates]

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Well for a start they have close to 70 staff (I'm not sure if that includes Singapore).  According to NZTR Richards has 164 horses in training.  That's 1 staff member for every 3 horses in work.

Look we could batter this all day , we don't have all the staffing numbers or actual horse numbers in work in NZ , but there is no way they are doing anything this size with the pressures and hours for their 10% of 6mil , 600k to divvy up between them , nah .

If they do have 70 staff you can bee assured a large portion will be part timers , track riders , mornings or afternoons only .

Nobody is paying 3 full timers to only 3 horses . Christ i could do 7/8 on my own comfortably .

 

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, nomates said:

That is their spelling charge , if you can't make a turn at that price your gold plating the grass .

And i would think yes they are being put in paddocks , colts will have individual paddocks might be an acre each . They wont be boxing everything all the time , some might at times .

I said it above and I'll say it again - there isn't a Thoroughbred Trainer in NZ making a profit just from Training.  They rely on Stakes, horse trading (sales) and other livestock related activities.  

[nomates]

23 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I said it above and I'll say it again - there isn't a Thoroughbred Trainer in NZ making a profit just from Training.  They rely on Stakes, horse trading (sales) and other livestock related activities.  

Well i gave you a breakdown and i was being quite generous with the figures and there was 10k+ to spare for you to tell me what i may have missed . 

I,m not knocking TA , but i have a pretty good handle on expenses other than staff and as i said there are other charges which more than cover costs on those charges so there is money being made there . 

I know plenty of trainers doing quite well thankyou very much , just like some like to get you to believe it is rocket science they are just as happy to have people believe that they are struggling financially . And that is not a knock , they are making a living , i never tell people how well i,m doing , i'm always just battling away .

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, nomates said:

I know plenty of trainers doing quite well thankyou very much , just like some like to get you to believe it is rocket science they are just as happy to have people believe that they are struggling financially . And that is not a knock , they are making a living , i never tell people how well i,m doing , i'm always just battling away .

Well I guess we won't hear any moaning since they are doing so well.  The industry must be in fine fettle.

[nomates]

30 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Well I guess we won't hear any moaning since they are doing so well.  The industry must be in fine fettle.

You are being unfair to me with those comments , you know my position , we are simply having a debate .

I repeat i gave you my figures tell me where i am wrong or what i have missed .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Huey]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

I said it above and I'll say it again - there isn't a Thoroughbred Trainer in NZ making a profit just from Training.  They rely on Stakes, horse trading (sales) and other livestock related activities.  

Would $600k go far in an operation like theirs? i.e. 10% of Prize$ from last season.

[Joe Bloggs]

I can't believe anyone has the gall to charge that for a 'speller'........we've agisted plenty up in the Waikato at very good reputable horse farms and the most we paid is 25 bucks a day.....even The Oaks was good value for money, I'm gobslmaked. No-one holds a gun to your head but these syndicators have you by the short and curlys, geez, you'd wanna read the small print.

[curious]

I suppose it depends what you mean by "spelling". I don't see how you could do that for much under $40 a day and I also don't see how you could train one with a small profit for much under $100 a day.

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Huey said:

Would $600k go far in an operation like theirs? i.e. 10% of Prize$ from last season.

I don't know what the arrangement is with Jamie Richards.  He is the registered trainer isn't he?

It works out at $760 a start.

Assuming that the money is shared it doesn't change what I said that the profits come from Stakes and Sales of horses at the end of their careers NOT directly from training.  On the Training side alone they break even as do most trainers.

Even so last year was an exception not the rule in terms of Stakes and wins.  Although you would have to say that the barn is looking pretty strong for this year as well.  I guess if you put in the work and are diligent about the detail the rewards start to accumulate.

[Joe Bloggs]

1 hour ago, curious said:

I suppose it depends what you mean by "spelling". I don't see how you could do that for much under $40 a day and I also don't see how you could train one with a small profit for much under $100 a day.

Are things that bad in NZ? A good country trainer here is about 85 a day, spelling 25 to 30 at the good farms, Widden are about 35, but thats creme de la creme.......nowhere matches Widden.......you have a real problem there with costs, fuel being what it is, well, the end is nigh one feels.........racing for fun, always happen, there will always be rich bastards too, but I feel it in my waters, the new breed of racing enthusiast will not pay a kings ransom for training and upkeep and race for what is being offered. Reality will arrive when the industry fwits go off to Jacinda cap in hand early next year when Paddy Power come knocking.......sadly.

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Are things that bad in NZ? A good country trainer here is about 85 a day, spelling 25 to 30 at the good farms, Widden are about 35, but thats creme de la creme.......nowhere matches Widden.......you have a real problem there with costs, fuel being what it is, well, the end is nigh one feels.........racing for fun, always happen, there will always be rich bastards too, but I feel it in my waters, the new breed of racing enthusiast will not pay a kings ransom for training and upkeep and race for what is being offered. Reality will arrive when the industry fwits go off to Jacinda cap in hand early next year when Paddy Power come knocking.......sadly.

I doubt they'll get anything from Cindy especially soon after she nails Greyhound racing.

[Freda]

Yeah, saw,that in the News.

Interesting indeed.

[curious]

Sounds like Greyhounds could be gone. Horses might follow. Worse if we hold on and they include revenue from overseas greyhound racing in any prohibition.

[Freda]

39 minutes ago, curious said:

Sounds like Greyhounds could be gone. Horses might follow. Worse if we hold on and they include revenue from overseas greyhound racing in any prohibition.

That'd cause a bit of squealing. 

[Gospel of Judas]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

That'd cause a bit of squealing. 

Just watch all the Rats runing down the drainpipe...

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, nomates said:

I repeat i gave you my figures tell me where i am wrong or what i have missed .

70 employees on $22 an hour.  No overtime.  That's a wage bill of $3.2m per year.

 

[Freda]

I've seen accounts for both grazing and training that would make your eyes water.

And I have to make clear I'm not 'having a go'  about those charges.

They run a top class operation with experienced and quality staff, the attention to detail is second to none,  they are entitled to charge what they do. They are the best in that range in which they perform. 

I'm not getting into the kickbacks and the ticket-clipping, that is an entirely different matter to what we are discussing I think.

 But the rub is, how long can those charges stand up to the challenges from Australian trainers/syndicates with access to huge rewards,  while T.A stay, mainly, at home?

As said to me by one of their personnel,  most of these horses are very ordinary,  but they're needed to pay the bills.

[nomates]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

As said to me by one of their personnel,  most of these horses are very ordinary,  but they're needed to pay the bills.

Every big stable has these horses , it's how they handle the good ones that makes the diff , just a numbers game . We would all get a number of good horses if we got 100 new horses each year .

 

2 hours ago, Freda said:

They run a top class operation with experienced and quality staff, the attention to detail is second to none,  they are entitled to charge what they do. They are the best in that range in which they perform. 

 

And that is why if you want the chance of a good horse for small outlay they are the go to team , especially with Richards training them .

 

2 hours ago, Freda said:

 But the rub is, how long can those charges stand up to the challenges from Australian trainers/syndicates with access to huge rewards,  while T.A stay, mainly, at home?

 

I think Covid has held up those plans , they were definitely looking at taking boxes in Melbourne before covid hit . Once there is a bit more clarity around travel they will do it , it is a natural progression .

 

2 hours ago, Freda said:

I've seen accounts for both grazing and training that would make your eyes water.

 

They quote around 4k a month for a horse in work , $100 per month on 2.5% , for a bit of fun not bad , 500k for winning one of the millions gets you $12,500 , not a bad return , and if you get a slow one your not bleeding your pocket .

Might have to look into it .

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, Freda said:

I'm not getting into the kickbacks and the ticket-clipping

Kickbacks are illegal.
As far as I know there isn't any "surcharge" on other fees.

3 hours ago, Freda said:

 But the rub is, how long can those charges stand up to the challenges from Australian trainers/syndicates with access to huge rewards,  while T.A stay, mainly, at home?

They only take those that they know are competitive in Metro OZ.  You forget though that they race in Singapore with Mark Walker having 68 horses in the stable up there.

However I would imagine that with the increasing disparity between NZ and OZ stakes that they would be seriously looking at setting up an operation in OZ.  To do that at scale would be an upfront investment in the millions.  Assuming of course that Jamie Richards would make the move. 

3 hours ago, Freda said:

As said to me by one of their personnel,  most of these horses are very ordinary,  but they're needed to pay the bills.

Isn't that the go with ALL of the big stables?  Aren't most horses "ordinary".  Jamie Richards has one of the top strike rates so on that basis you are getting value for money.

If you look at last season for trainers that have had over 400 starts:

Jamie Richards 790 Starts 36 Grp and Listed wins Strike rate 4.94
Stephen Marsh 969 Starts 10 Grp and Listed wins SR 10.53
Pitman 505, 2, 8.71
Baker/Forsman 444, 7, 8.71
Myers 416, 2, 8.16
Latta 488, 0, 13.56
Rogerson 632, 5, 19.15
 

What does Rogie charge?  Mind you he will always tell you that you have a top horse!

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

Every big stable has these horses , it's how they handle the good ones that makes the diff , just a numbers game . We would all get a number of good horses if we got 100 new horses each year .

The key is how quickly you sack them or flick them on. In Gai Waterhouse's case it is how quickly you break them.

The big OZ stables have 2 to 3 times the number of horses in work that Te Akau has.

Chris Waller has 405 horses in work in NSW alone!  I hear he spends most of the time outside Verry Elleegant's box!

[nomates]

33 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The key is how quickly you sack them or flick them on. In Gai Waterhouse's case it is how quickly you break them.

The big OZ stables have 2 to 3 times the number of horses in work that Te Akau has.

Chris Waller has 405 horses in work in NSW alone!  I hear he spends most of the time outside Verry Elleegant's box!

TA are moving the slow ones on a bit quicker these days thru Gavelhouse .

The only problem with the big , massive stables , is that you pay your money and watch your horse race , no input per say , but as long as you go into it with your eyes open there should be no issue . As i said for monthly cost it is a cost effective way of having a small share in 1 or 4 horses without breaking the bank .

[Chief Stipe]

37 minutes ago, nomates said:

TA are moving the slow ones on a bit quicker these days thru Gavelhouse .

Yep and occasionally one will slip through that in a different environment does better.  Although I'd get rid of the blinkers first!!

 

[nomates]

9 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Although I'd get rid of the blinkers first!!

I didn't know you wore them , take them off , i'm sure you will show improvement .

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, nomates said:

I didn't know you wore them , take them off , i'm sure you will show improvement .

I assure you I'm not a three year old after Christmas.....maybe on New Years Eve....

[nomates]

10 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I assure you I'm not a three year old after Christmas.....maybe on New Years Eve....

Have you been gelded yet , yet another procedure that could , and i use the word loosely , could bring about improvement in your disposition .

And will make you safe to others on " new years eve " .