Pattern Committee report

[Chief Stipe]

7 minutes ago, Nostradamus said:

England hold heritage handicaps that are not black type races The Ebor a prime example.

When was the last time you saw 20 Class 2 horses race in a NZ Handicap?

[Freda]

1 hour ago, Ludwig said:

Freda, do you know how long Ray Coupland is tied in with the C0uplands  Mile? ... Especially if it's on a threatened downgrade list?

Sorry, no,  I don't.

 

[Doomed]

3 hours ago, curious said:

 Further, the NZPC is concerned that it is constrained from promoting worthy races due to an excessive number of existing Pattern races and that this may lead to a calcification of the Pattern.

This is the interesting bit. They have several other races they are desperate to promote. So don't think they are suddenly showing some common sense and want to rationalise things.

[Doomed]

The key word in all this is "pattern". There is no pattern to our feature races at all. There are random Group 1 miles and fillies and mares races scattered all over the place. The poor old Bayer Classic as was has been destroyed by giving it to the WRC. And that Group 1 race at Otaki is hardly a good look.

[Doomed]

3 hours ago, curious said:

3. The NZPC discussed the current 2yo programme at length and agreed that a sub-committee be formed to examine it and make recommendations to NZTR on any potential changes.

Everything will be ok. A sub-committee will solve everything.

[Doomed]

"The NZPC acknowledges that NZ has very few non-tote races and a large number of competitive trials relative to most other jurisdictions."

I didn't think we had any non tote races. Obviously we have numerous trials that are much stronger than all those Group 1 Horses that trial in Sydney. 

Heat 1 (8.30am) – Verry Elleegant, Stay Inside, Kolding, Icebath, Selino, Brandenburg, Riodini

Heat 2 (8.40am) – Dreamforce, Hungry Heart, Forbidden Love, Adelong, Four Moves Ahead, Nancho, Prime Star, Taikomochi

Heat 3 (8.50am) – Embracer, Fituese, Glistening, Mamaragan, Matchmaker, Mazu, She’s All Class, Vulpine, Xtremetime

Any number of trials at Foxton and Ashburton today would be stronger than those ordinary Aussies

 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Doomed

[nomates]

35 minutes ago, Doomed said:

The key word in all this is "pattern". There is no pattern to our feature races at all. There are random Group 1 miles and fillies and mares races scattered all over the place. The poor old Bayer Classic as was has been destroyed by giving it to the WRC. And that Group 1 race at Otaki is hardly a good look.

The " Old Bayer " had become the Levin classic by the time it had been moved , they were told move it or lose it , as smaller race courses weren't going to be holding G1's any more , so they let it go and got the shite race as a replacement . But the race had for many years become a shadow of it's former glory and hadn't had a true G1 quality field in many years , i suggested telling them to FO and keep the race at Otaki as a lower group race but to no avail , which why we now have a piss poor charade of a G1 . 

On top of that the OMRC got to keep the Haunui Classic there so it was all bullshit just to pinch the race to Trentham .

That Bayer day was one of the best days of racing you could go to , a true iconic raceday , completely Fuckin ruined now , go figure .

But they know what they are doing . YEAH RIGHT !

[Doomed]

After watching Sherwood Forrest struggling to keep up at Sandown perhaps the Derby was very lucky to keep its Group 1 status. Just from memory I don't think any of our last four Derby winners have managed to win a race in Australia, and they haven't won many in NZ either. It could be argued that the last two editions of the Derby may have been the worst ever.

Everything must be ok though as I don't think the pattern committee has does anything to fix the "pattern", so it mustn't be broken.

[nomates]

11 minutes ago, Doomed said:

After watching Sherwood Forrest struggling to keep up at Sandown perhaps the Derby was very lucky to keep its Group 1 status. Just from memory I don't think any of our last four Derby winners have managed to win a race in Australia, and they haven't won many in NZ either. It could be argued that the last two editions of the Derby may have been the worst ever.

Everything must be ok though as I don't think the pattern committee has does anything to fix the "pattern", so it mustn't be broken.

Imo the Derby has been the last true G1 in NZ , usually the winner has gone to Sydney and competed very well , but over the last few seasons the quality has declined year on year , the reasons are varied but for mine it purely down to the majority of the quality young horses having been sold out of NZ by the time the race is run . That is horses sold thru sales and then trials and early career race performance , so that what is left now is in most cases the ones left behind .

There will be exceptions but i would say what we have now is what we are stuck with , give it another 5 years and it will be downgraded .

[Doomed]

20 minutes ago, nomates said:

Imo the Derby has been the last true G1 in NZ , usually the winner has gone to Sydney and competed very well , but over the last few seasons the quality has declined year on year , the reasons are varied but for mine it purely down to the majority of the quality young horses having been sold out of NZ by the time the race is run . That is horses sold thru sales and then trials and early career race performance , so that what is left now is in most cases the ones left behind .

There will be exceptions but i would say what we have now is what we are stuck with , give it another 5 years and it will be downgraded .

You are an optimist. 5years. It has already been warned so it might only last another couple of years.

[nomates]

45 minutes ago, Doomed said:

You are an optimist. 5years. It has already been warned so it might only last another couple of years.

They are always slow to change , don't want to believe that it's that bad so will hope it will improve . But the money wont change which is the biggest waste .

[nomates]

Well after the Tarzino field was robbed of Avantage the field became very average and now the Windsor Plate is no better , what is the field for the 3rd day G1 going to be like , especially if Callsign Mav heads to Australia for the Cox , big mistake in my book , always been a fan of the horse but he is never a Cox horse , should stay and take the easy money . 

Anyway the question has to be asked , how long till the HB spring carnival gets the downgrade , none of the G1's are above G3's at best , with no improvement likely in years to come .

[Huey]

30 minutes ago, nomates said:

Well after the Tarzino field was robbed of Avantage the field became very average and now the Windsor Plate is no better , what is the field for the 3rd day G1 going to be like , especially if Callsign Mav heads to Australia for the Cox , big mistake in my book , always been a fan of the horse but he is never a Cox horse , should stay and take the easy money . 

Anyway the question has to be asked , how long till the HB spring carnival gets the downgrade , none of the G1's are above G3's at best , with no improvement likely in years to come .

It can't be far away , the overall standard in NZ has reached that level so its only a matter of time.

[Huey]

On 25/09/2021 at 5:53 PM, nomates said:

Imo the Derby has been the last true G1 in NZ , usually the winner has gone to Sydney and competed very well , but over the last few seasons the quality has declined year on year , the reasons are varied but for mine it purely down to the majority of the quality young horses having been sold out of NZ by the time the race is run . That is horses sold thru sales and then trials and early career race performance , so that what is left now is in most cases the ones left behind .

There will be exceptions but i would say what we have now is what we are stuck with , give it another 5 years and it will be downgraded .

Surely the NZ Oaks is one of the only true G1 contests left, most of the time seems to throw up a few very good horses in a decent sized field.

[nomates]

31 minutes ago, Huey said:

Surely the NZ Oaks is one of the only true G1 contests left, most of the time seems to throw up a few very good horses in a decent sized field.

Seriously i think they are both starting stretch the imagination that either is a serious G1 , throwing up the odd genuine group performer isn't enough . The form out of those races has to be franked in Australia on a regular basis , and that form is starting to become a bit thin .

You can't have a race holding it's G1 rating on the back of the odd good horse coming thru it . 

This is why they don't want to change our rating system , because it ghosts world ratings therefor our races are rated above where they should . The fact that our 100+ rated horses are no better than 80s or lower in Aus isn't something anybody wants to admit to . 

We can see a horse with some ability here win 2 mid weekers then a couple of open races because they are so poor and suddenly they are hitting 90+ . Win another then they are having to compete at WFA because they are getting weighted out .

It's a joke .

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, nomates said:

We can see a horse with some ability here win 2 mid weekers then a couple of open races because they are so poor and suddenly they are hitting 90+ . Win another then they are having to compete at WFA because they are getting weighted out .

End result the quality of the fields decline even more and the horse has no future and the owners get the stitch.

What's more the 2 mid weekers don't cover the costs of getting the horse to races let alone recouping any of the original purchase price.

[nomates]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

End result the quality of the fields decline even more and the horse has no future and the owners get the stitch.

 

The quick end result is that now owners and trainers have woken up and if a horse shows any semblance of ability it will be sold at a price that in years gone by most would have turned down . They know that 50k+ in a quick turn around is now the way to go . 

Our rating system has to change to work with the product we now have , not what used to be .

[Doomed]

6 hours ago, nomates said:

Well after the Tarzino field was robbed of Avantage the field became very average and now the Windsor Plate is no better , what is the field for the 3rd day G1 going to be like , especially if Callsign Mav heads to Australia for the Cox , big mistake in my book , always been a fan of the horse but he is never a Cox horse , should stay and take the easy money . 

Anyway the question has to be asked , how long till the HB spring carnival gets the downgrade , none of the G1's are above G3's at best , with no improvement likely in years to come .

Surely he isn't heading to the Cox? He would be a 100 to 1 chance. Be like Melody Belle and Avantage and stay and take the easy money. I suppose not being a mare he doesn't get the residual value that they did.

[Huey]

10 hours ago, Doomed said:

Surely he isn't heading to the Cox? He would be a 100 to 1 chance. Be like Melody Belle and Avantage and stay and take the easy money. I suppose not being a mare he doesn't get the residual value that they did.

26s for the Cox at the moment,  I'm a big fan of the horse but would want at least double that to back him, VE & Z heading there, but if you've got one you got to have a go don't ya, I mean it is "the" race surely. Trainer nearly pulled it off with JC , outside of VE I be cheering for him.

[nomates]

On 30/09/2021 at 7:07 AM, Huey said:

26s for the Cox at the moment,  I'm a big fan of the horse but would want at least double that to back him, VE & Z heading there, but if you've got one you got to have a go don't ya, I mean it is "the" race surely. Trainer nearly pulled it off with JC , outside of VE I be cheering for him.

Well he's going to Aus , the bad news is he is staying there , going to D O'Brien , so things at the top end keep getting thinner .

I wonder when the men at the top are going to wake up to the fact that unless they come up with some plan to keep horses in NZ then we will have R65s as our top tier of racing .

[Freda]

On 21/09/2021 at 3:49 PM, Freda said:

Saudi Arabia is waiting.....

..and got its Grp 1 status for its 20 mill Cup.

[Freda]

3 minutes ago, Freda said:

..and got its Grp 1 status for its 20 mill Cup.

as well, if I read it correctly, Bruce Sherwin is now a councillor on the Pattern race committee on a rotating basis, representing 'developing' countries.

How did we become 'developing' ?  I should have thought 'disintegrating ' would be more appropriate.    

[Doomed]

15 hours ago, Freda said:

as well, if I read it correctly, Bruce Sherwin is now a councillor on the Pattern race committee on a rotating basis, representing 'developing' countries.

How did we become 'developing' ?  I should have thought 'disintegrating ' would be more appropriate.    

He is probably advising other countries how easy it is to go wrong and how much other countries can learn by looking at the NZ situation.

[Freda]

8 hours ago, Doomed said:

He is probably advising other countries how easy it is to go wrong and how much other countries can learn by looking at the NZ situation.

Oh, hilarious.     He is likely helping to perpetrate the myth beloved of our heirarchy that li'l ol' NZ is a lesser, but still influential offshoot of dear old Blighty...not as populous, or vigorous, as the convict settlement across the water, but oh, so superior and with much better grass.

That started to slide off the map twenty or so years ago.

[nomates]

Well if we want a picture of how average our group races are the G3 for mares at Hawera shows us , a 9yo r75 mare wins it , laughable , sad .