NZTR Consultation Document: Favours "Elite" Trainers!

[Huey]

3 hours ago, nomates said:

There is so much wrong with the quality of our jocks , for the majority race tactics is a foreign word , but to understand how poor the majority of our jocks are you simply have to watch a field turning for home , where most of the jockeys are asking their horses to wind up and sprint , only one problem , most of them have their horses on the wrong fucken leg . 

Happens every race , come round the bend horses trying to sprint around and on one reign because the jockey hasn't got the horse balanced onto the correct leg before asking them to go . One of the most important aspects of riding a horse in a race , balance , but most can't don't get it , but sadly don't seem to care .

Watched countless times yesterday on one of our biggest days when our best horses and jocks are supposed to show they're ability , many are lacking and doing they're horses a disservice .

When OPB and Allpress are gone who is going to replace them , god knows , the premiership will be won by the best of a ragtag mob .

Have you read the new proposal from those beacons of racing knowledge at NZTR ? If they have their way we'll have about 8 track work riders in the country & 3 jocks.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Huey

[Guest Whyisit]

2 minutes ago, Huey said:

Have you read the new proposal from those beckons of racing knowledge at NZTR ? If they have their way we'll have about 8 track work riders in the country & 3 jocks.

4 Tracks      Elite trainers   Elite jockeys  the rest get squeezed out.   

[Huey]

43 minutes ago, Whyisit said:

4 Tracks      Elite trainers   Elite jockeys  the rest get squeezed out.   

What would they know about Elite? 

[Guest Whyisit]

53 minutes ago, Huey said:

Have you read the new proposal from those beacons of racing knowledge at NZTR ? If they have their way we'll have about 8 track work riders in the country & 3 jocks.

dec21-training-and-licensing-consultation-paper.pdf
 

Why are we making these changes?
We want to focus on making sure that every thoroughbred trainer meets the same high performance
standards. Trainers who are offering horse training services to the general public will need to meet
appropriate business conduct standards.
While hobbyist and enthusiast trainers have an important place in our sport, we want to make the
distinction between such trainers and full-time professional horse trainers who produce the majority of
our starters much clearer.
High-performing horse trainers will no longer have to compete against those who have a lower-cost
operating model. 

 

What does that mean ??

Edited January 2, 2022 by Whyisit

[nomates]

19 minutes ago, Whyisit said:

dec21-training-and-licensing-consultation-paper.pdf
 

Why are we making these changes?
We want to focus on making sure that every thoroughbred trainer meets the same high performance
standards. Trainers who are offering horse training services to the general public will need to meet
appropriate business conduct standards.
While hobbyist and enthusiast trainers have an important place in our sport, we want to make the
distinction between such trainers and full-time professional horse trainers who produce the majority of
our starters much clearer.
High-performing horse trainers will no longer have to compete against those who have a lower-cost
operating model. 

 

What does that mean ??

Fuck off , some of the best horseman i have known have been hobbyist/enthusiast trainers . And some of the worst have called themselves professionals and their standards have been far from high performing , and i know from first hand experience , some of the stuff that some of the people i have worked for has been eye opening .

Perhaps if they are setting standards for the industry they should start with themselves , because high performance alongside NZTR is the gold standard for the word OXYMORON .

As for the underlined sentence , welcome to their vision of Hong Kong in NZ , centralisation to the north with limited licences for training and riding , and i believe this is not being purely driven by NZTR , they are merely the gun firing the bullets . 

 

Edited January 2, 2022 by nomates

[Doomed]

High-performing horse trainers will no longer have to compete against those who have a lower-cost
operating model. 

They seriously haven't said that somewhere have they?

[Huey]

8 minutes ago, Doomed said:

High-performing horse trainers will no longer have to compete against those who have a lower-cost
operating model. 

They seriously haven't said that somewhere have they?

They certainly have, it means an end to stories like Gold Watch , the fools will support it as well the sport is truly done in this country.

[Joe Bloggs]

There's got to be some brave souls that work in the Petone Taj Mahal, good people that know their limitations. There are also a number of mediocre executives that come up with shite like this.

I remember when we all respected the old Racing Conference, they were vastly different animals to what inhabit the Taj now.

The racing today at TAU was deplorable, but I bet the car park piss up was awesome, it always is, the biggest boot party in the Valley, and Welly for that matter, it will be gone within a decade, owner trainers, small trainers, all gone, it's progress, defined by fuckwits for fuckwits, and overseen by even bigger fuckwits.

You can't steal memories, you can steal the future, Petone is full of robbers, NZ has learnt nothing, to attract new blood, younger people, to a stagnant and poisonous industry you have to be innovative, creative and pro-active, this mob are neither, at best they are re-active and even then can't seem to drag themselves above water level, by alienating grass roots New Zealand they are locking themselves into a fortress, backs to the wall stuff, when whats needed is consultation by a cross section of the racing industry.

People like Reefton, Nomates, Freda, Pitman, Carter, just to name a few, all have/had skin in the game, no use heading to the Cartel, that's why we are where we are, if anyone at Petone reads this forum, for Gods sake show some heart, some courage, some intellect, something!!! and call a national conference and ask for help......the helps there, I know it, I feel it, it just takes one person at NZTR with cache to get things rolling......if it happened the boss and I would re-invest, gladly, at one stage we had 5 in work with trainers in NZ and 10 mares and foals/weanlings, Change, it's possible, but maybe not probable, and thats heartbreaking for those of us that entered this wonderful sport/industry decades ago, in my case 1967.....

I might well be a fossil, but a passionate one, I've left well over a million dollars behind chasing a dream, and we had a go, a good old fashioned go, and don't regret a minute of it......the lows included, the saddest part of it all.....to be dudded by Duds at the end of our innings, being run out on 99........oh well, said my piece, a dram or two of single malt and off to walk the dog. Correct Weight ?

[Chimbu]

Having now read most of the documentation out for consultation, including the rule changes, I am still at a loss to understand what this statement - High-performing horse trainers will no longer have to compete against those who have a lower-cost operating model. -  means & how it will manifest itself in training/racing in the future. Anyone out there who does understand it, can you please enlighten this dummy.

I understand through reading the docs that some people might have to jump through some 'tick box' hoops to satisfy the licencing authorities to retain their current status (with a new name). Will some baulk at this? Maybe, even probably. I see their point when most of them would be able to run rings around those examining their capabilities for the purpose of licencing them under the propsed regime.

As an aside, I also smiled when reading all the references to he/she throughout the documents. Most major organisations policy documents are now written to cater for those who don't wish to be gender-defined. Like it, or not, our policy/rule writers are still in the dark ages with regard to how to draft suitable policy on this matter.

 

[Chief Stipe]

Can someone upload the document or post q link to where it is available for downloading?

Or are the attached documents the ones being discussed?

1 (Dec21) Training and Licensing - Consultation Paper.pdf

2 (Dec21) NZTR Licensing Policy - For Consultation.pdf

[Chief Stipe]

I notice one aspect of current training practices that has been "overlooked" and that is the licensing of horse breakers and pre-trainers.  Tasks many of the "elite" Trainers don't get involved in.

[Huey]

Perhaps this is a good thing and out of the sheer idiocy of it all a new regime could evolve. Probably not , but what they are proposing only has a limited shelf life at best.

[Chief Stipe]

Does this mean if I want to be a Trainer I have to go to Roger and Pikie's Tailor to buy a suit and their Optometrist to buy my designer glasses?  Kevin Myers didn't sneak into the picture.  

[Chief Stipe]

@Joe Bloggs, @Huey and @nomates you'll either have to relinquish your NZTR licenses or if you haven't got one you won't get one......

One of the rule changes is you are considered undesirable if you have ever been rude to an official of NZ Racing.

[Doomed]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

@Joe Bloggs, @Huey and @nomates you'll either have to relinquish your NZTR licenses or if you haven't got one you won't get one......

One of the rule changes is you are considered undesirable if you have ever been rude to an official of NZ Racing.

Can you just imagine an industry made up of only those trainers and connections who think NZTR is marvellous and doing a great job.

[Chief Stipe]

2 minutes ago, Doomed said:

Can you just imagine an industry made up of only those trainers and connections who think NZTR is marvellous and doing a great job.

To be fair @Doomed there is some good stuff amongst the proposals some of which I have advocated for a long time.  For example implementation of standards for participation in the industry and the provision of formal training to assist that.  The standardisation across the industry of Ownership contracts/agreements.  Roger James and Te Akau have been standard setters in that regard for a long time.  Hopefully NZTR will be able to monitor these agreements for compliance and avoid the issues that have occurred in the industry.  Harness had a very public ownership fraud case recently.

They seem to have only two classes of Trainer though - Public and Private.  Private only being able to train horses they own or for family or close relatives.  Is a cousin a close relative?  What about the professional private trainer?  I would say that the large Public Trainers are pushing this as there are numerous Trainers that have a small stable of less than 10 in work that don't have to charge for the overheads that the big stables have. 

What NZTR doesn't realise though is that by making it harder for the small trainer who trains for a small group of non-relatives to operate it will push more horses and owners out of the industry.  Once again they have no understanding of what has made this industry in NZ great and they are going to kill it by moving further towards a high cost model.  I'm sure many of us know of at least one farmer/trainer who raced horses with some mates and went on to great race wins.

Although many of the proposals are things that an active and functional Owner/Trainer Association would be doing.

My concerns are further increases to compliance costs within the industry - that money has to come from somewhere either from Owners or the diversion of stake money.  Since the TAB pushed a number of functions off their ledger to the codes we have seen the individual code employee numbers rise and their expenditure.

Meanwhile they neglect the key driver for the whole industry - safe and available tracks for horses to train and race on.

[nomates]

When i first applied for an owner trainer licence 25+years ago it was no simple process , made the application , got a visit from a racecourse "D" to check my new property and character , had to prove i was financially solvent , had to spent mornings for a about a month at a "Professional trainers " property to prove i could handle horses and saddle horses . I then had to go to a full meeting of the Central District Committee before the races at Trentham one Saturday , 12/14 old stuffy prats sitting round a board table asking me banal questions . Very stressful , but got my licence . Nearly didn't because we were just setting up a new property , built a house and post and rail fencing , but no stabling , yet , so i had the proviso of having to build boxes within 12/18 months . All bullshit now when i look back .

I had to jump thru all those hoops when i had years of experience and references from being stallion handler for One Pound Sterling , Icelandic , Grosvenor , Pompeii Court , and Zephyr Bay among others .

Things changed for a long time when they started getting challenged on the human rights of denying someone a licence and they got gun shy , licences started coming cornflake boxes .

So if it's going to get tougher than my initial process then i can tell you some of the current so called "professional trainers " are going to struggle to retain their licences .

[nomates]

3 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

To be fair @Doomed there is some good stuff amongst the proposals some of which I have advocated for a long time.  For example implementation of standards for participation in the industry and the provision of formal training to assist that.  The standardisation across the industry of Ownership contracts/agreements.  Roger James and Te Akau have been standard setters in that regard for a long time.  Hopefully NZTR will be able to monitor these agreements for compliance and avoid the issues that have occurred in the industry.  Harness had a very public ownership fraud case recently.

They seem to have only two classes of Trainer though - Public and Private.  Private only being able to train horses they own or for family or close relatives.  Is a cousin a close relative?  What about the professional private trainer?  I would say that the large Public Trainers are pushing this as there are numerous Trainers that have a small stable of less than 10 in work that don't have to charge for the overheads that the big stables have. 

What NZTR doesn't realise though is that by making it harder for the small trainer who trains for a small group of non-relatives to operate it will push more horses and owners out of the industry.  Once again they have no understanding of what has made this industry in NZ great and they are going to kill it by moving further towards a high cost model.  I'm sure many of us know of at least one farmer/trainer who raced horses with some mates and went on to great race wins.

Although many of the proposals are things that an active and functional Owner/Trainer Association would be doing.

My concerns are further increases to compliance costs within the industry - that money has to come from somewhere either from Owners or the diversion of stake money.  Since the TAB pushed a number of functions off their ledger to the codes we have seen the individual code employee numbers rise and their expenditure.

Meanwhile they neglect the key driver for the whole industry - safe and available tracks for horses to train and race on.

So how does the young wannnabe trainer get going , or is it going to be through a scholarship/apprenticeship process .

It's a deep and narrow hole they are descending into with only a line of cotton as their safety rope .

As i mentioned on here last night and on other occasions over the last few months , this is the road to centralisation to the northern region , for major racing anyway . 

[Guest Whyisit]

15 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

They seem to have only two classes of Trainer though - Public and Private.  Private only being able to train horses they own or for family or close relatives.  Is a cousin a close relative? 

Does that mean if you are a mate of an owner trainer ( private trainer ) you can’t go in with him as a owner previously you could as long he had ownership of 50% of the horse ?

[Chief Stipe]

11 minutes ago, nomates said:

So how does the young wannnabe trainer get going , or is it going to be through a scholarship/apprenticeship process .

It's a deep and narrow hole they are descending into with only a line of cotton as their safety rope .

As i mentioned on here last night and on other occasions over the last few months , this is the road to centralisation to the northern region , for major racing anyway . 

I don't disagree with you however there are some good things in the document.  BUT and it is a big BUT there are contradictions and wording that suggest another agenda as you elude to.  For example:

They say there will be two categories of Trainer licenses - Public and Private.  But Private is limited to training for self, family and close relatives.

Then they say that "hobbyist and enthusiast trainers have an important place in our sport" yet the above seems to on the face of it preclude that.  As the "hobbyist and enthusiast trainer" will have to become a Public Trainer.  Why not say if you have 5 or less horses in work for non family/relative and you are a part owner then you can be a Private Trainer?

[Joe Bloggs]

May I just add, Petone seems to forget or to not acknowledge Darwins theory of evolution, as to become a high performance horse trainer one would need to go through the 'lower cost model training process wouldn't one''?........unless of course you are a rich mans son or daughter, and have 'friends' in the right place.

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, Whyisit said:

Does that mean if you are a mate of an owner trainer ( private trainer ) you can’t go in with him as a owner previously you could as long he had ownership of 50% of the horse ?

That's how it reads.  My previous post refers to this.

[Chief Stipe]

1 minute ago, Joe Bloggs said:

May I just add, Petone seems to forget or to not acknowledge Darwins theory of evolution, as to become a high performance horse trainer one would need to go through the 'lower cost model training process wouldn't one''?........unless of course you are a rich mans son or daughter, and have 'friends' in the right place.

Hell that's twice in 3 days that I have agreed with you!!!!!

Why don't the just address the issues with the current system than just chuck it out and make it tougher for what was once the core of the industry the "little guy"?

I'm all for tightening up some of the procedures around ownership etc but that shouldn't involve extra cost or push out some trainers.  

In the document they contradict themselves often.  Another example - 

"....full-time professional trainers...produce the majority of our starters..."  then they say "High performing professional trainers will not have to compete against those who have a lower cost operating model".   Ummm aren't the "high performing professional trainers" competing against each other if they provide the majority of starters?

These "high performing professional trainers" are very good at passing on ALL costs to Owners and also clipping the ticket on other costs such as pre-training.  The presumably "low performing amateur trainer" tends to do all the training.

Again I reiterate there is NO mention in the document about horse breakers and pre-trainers - the "high performing professional trainers" get their horses a 3 to 4 weeks before trials and racing and just fine tune.  

[Chief Stipe]

None of this will address the key issues - race programming, track quality and safety, race handicapping....those things that help produce a quality product that the punter wants to invest on that then generates stakes.

I might add that the amateur hobbyist enthusiast trainer doesn't have a sausage roll warmer.

[Kihikihi Kid]

All the proposals sound fine -be funny if all the 'elite trainers' broke away and started their own renegade operation.

NZTR may have sown the seed on their own demise 

Airy fairy stuff  I know but we live in hope ...