Wigg High Court Appeal - RIU Appeal process independent/justice missing ?

[LongOwner]

 https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/harness-racing-driver-appeals-against-disqualification-claims-racing-integrity-board-biased/4ZMJH5MTK3NUZRI55A7W6RXCWM/

[Rangatira]

Brian Dickey adding comedic value to the hearing.

Brian Dickey, representing the Racing Integrity Board, said the structure of the board was fit for purpose and worked well.

"We have a perfectly good panel that isn't biased. It is just easier and more efficient to mix and match the appeal members with the RIB members," Dickey said.

"This way it's less time-consuming and cost-efficient. I am not saying this could never be done it would just be difficult.

[LongOwner]

Yes the Crown Law Office managing partner seems to agree with Wigg’s barrister - you cannot have the prosecutor , judge , jury and appeal body all in the same camp/office. 
Then they pick names out of the friendly group to fit the prosecutors case - that is so far off fair or justice it is embarrassing .

 

 

[the galah]

So she has a degree of merit in her argument around the make up of personnel hearing her case.I take it that is a major thrust of her case,but i could be wrong.

And she is saying the racing integrity board is biased. Well how about that,the entity set up to police the rules actually looks at it from an enforcement perspective. Thanks for bringing that to our attention. That is however nothing new to anyone.That goes without saying.

So on one hand she deserves credit for that.

Industry figures packed the gallery. So what. Sounds like some don't have anything better to do to me. No doubt those with a legal background may find it interesting,but what would the rest have to gain from personally attending the hearing. Is it somehow going to give them a greater understanding of the judges ruling. I assume the reserved decision will be a detailed written one outlining the reasons for the ruling.

But lets put some perspective on this.

To me it just seems a waste of money to both parties. 

I don't know what world Wigg lives in, probably the  part of  harness racing where those in it have views that everyone the subject of enforcement is seen as the victim of unfair treatment. Except of course if its someone with a low profile.Then no one really cares.Besides,there is hardly anyone with a low profile anymore anyway.Ironically,if anyone had bothered to ask many of them before they left,they would have found many wanted greater enforcement to create a level playing field. 

To me,this case is just another example of how there is a power struggle for the  control of the narrative around enforcement.

This case need not have become a  complicated legal stoush.

The make up of the panel hearing her case is secondary.

You can't go giving your horses treatment on the day of the race,because other trainers who abide by the rules think you are cheating.Its simple as that.

Is there anyone out there who actually bothers to say what they think when they interact with those who work outside the rules. Or do they just say it on social media,and to other like minded trainers who they know agree with them.Saying what you think about an issue,need not involve personalities.

Unfortunately  one side always makes it about the personalities involved. Those most vocal say they care about those involved,but then they create an environment where those very same people they support are placed under extreme pressure.And then that is used by that side as some sort of justification for saying they were right. Yet they can't ever see they were part of the cause. So ignorant and all rather pathetic in many ways.It keeps happening,so it seems they never learn that there are far better strategies to achieve their goals.It is what it is.

Edited August 16, 2022 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

6 hours ago, the galah said:

The make up of the panel hearing her case is secondary.

It's not secondary to the perceived integrity of the Racing Judiciary.  It's fundamental.  End of Story.

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

It's not secondary to the perceived integrity of the Racing Judiciary.  It's fundamental.  End of Story.

Secondary.

The meaning if you google it  "coming after less important than,or resulting from someone or something else that is primary".

So in my opinion, industry participants understanding they have an obligation to play by the rules,and to not cheat ,would be of primary importance. So i believe it is secondary.

 

[Chief Stipe]

24 minutes ago, the galah said:

Secondary.

The meaning if you google it  "coming after less important than,or resulting from someone or something else that is primary".

So in my opinion, industry participants understanding they have an obligation to play by the rules,and to not cheat ,would be of primary importance. So i believe it is secondary.

 

Then if you were consistent you would apply the same rules to the Judiciary.

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Then if you were consistent you would apply the same rules to the Judiciary.

Not 100% sure what you are meaning. But i understand wigg has a point when she has argued the appeal committee that would hear her appeal against sentence,should not be made up of people associated with those who made the original decision.

That of course leaves an inference that she believes she may not get a fair hearing.Whether that is what she really believes or not,who knows,but that of course is an argument based on perception,and is not a given reality.

Everyone should be entitled to pick what battles they fight,and wigg has chosen this one.

But with it comes a great deal of financial cost and publicity. 

 

[LongOwner]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Not 100% sure what you are meaning. But i understand wigg has a point when she has argued the appeal committee that would hear her appeal against sentence,should not be made up of people associated with those who made the original decision.

That of course leaves an inference that she believes she may not get a fair hearing.Whether that is what she really believes or not,who knows,but that of course is an argument based on perception,and is not a given reality.

Everyone should be entitled to pick what battles they fight,and wigg has chosen this one.

But with it comes a great deal of financial cost and publicity. 

 

And her stance, I would suggest, is positive publicity as the RIU structure is wrong, not fair and no one would think it it follows the requirements which would meet the justice test .

Instead of being a card holder for the RIU - research justice and it’s accepted standards/provisions and tell us how the structure meets those requirements .

You can say the RIU are not always correct !

[the galah]

Card holder for the RIU-funny,but i don't think so. 

My point has always been-irrespective of the merit of her (and your) argument,and i accept there is some,the reason she is having to deal with it is because of her own actions. 

Instead of me telling you about what you suggest,how about you tell me how anyone who does something similar meets the accepted standards of a harness trainer?

Its not about who.its about what.

Interesting you see a story headlined "harness racing trainer appeals against disqualification,claims racing integrity board is biased" as positive publicity. Thats what you said. What about the bit where it says the case relates to "Wigg administered 3 horses a substance in july last year". Is that positive publicity for wigg?.

We both seem to comment on this type of thing.We have differing points of view. Sometimes its like groundhog day. But i feel strongly that if the industry is to continue,you need strong enforcement.Thats why i comment. My impression from speaking to others is its almost past that point now.Its as if they just accept proper enforcement has come too late and even now its here,it doesn't change the attitudes of those who transgress,and of those that support them .Just read forums like a bit of a yarn and you can see why many think that?

Edited August 17, 2022 by the galah

[LongOwner]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Card holder for the RIU-funny,but i don't think so. 

My point has always been-irrespective of the merit of her (and your) argument,and i accept there is some,the reason she is having to deal with it is because of her own actions. 

Instead of me telling you about what you suggest,how about you tell me how anyone who does something similar meets the accepted standards of a harness trainer?

Its not about who.its about what.

Interesting you see a story headlined "harness racing trainer appeals against disqualification,claims racing integrity board is biased" as positive publicity. Thats what you said. What about the bit where it says the case relates to "Wigg administered 3 horses a substance in july last year". Is that positive publicity for wigg?.

We both seem to comment on this type of thing.We have differing points of view. Sometimes its like groundhog day. But i feel strongly that if the industry is to continue,you need strong enforcement.Thats why i comment. My impression from speaking to others is its almost past that point now.Its as if they just accept proper enforcement has come too late and even now its here,it doesn't change the attitudes of those who transgress,and of those that support them .Just read forums like a bit of a yarn and you can see why many think that?

Any rule enforcement agency should have a system which provides justice - the RIU doesn’t and they are not proactive in creating a set of rules which does -

a) No thresholds for caffeine , cobalt , meths etc - read international athletic rules , Australian cobalt rules , and NZ govt meths thresholds etc .

b) As in this case how can the same office and people be investigator, prosecutor, and then the equivalent of district court judge, high court judge & Supreme Court judge. I have be calling this out for years .

c) Who set the penalties - now that is a mystery! 

 d) RIB cost !!

e) Rouge raids as they hold a vendetta 

f) Waste of our money 

g) Their lack of penalty guidelines (agreed by industry participates) causes the headlines - not me!

Great to see a report with balance which is no based on leaked information and totally biased.

It is like paying 66% tax - you loose respect of the system .

They need to be inclusive and not elite - the ones they harass without foundation are paying their wages by the product the trainer , driver ,and  jockey provide.

Balance is all people ask for and fairness. Not witch hunts. 

[hunterthepunter]

8 hours ago, the galah said:

Not 100% sure what you are meaning. But i understand wigg has a point when she has argued the appeal committee that would hear her appeal against sentence,should not be made up of people associated with those who made the original decision.

That of course leaves an inference that she believes she may not get a fair hearing.Whether that is what she really believes or not,who knows,but that of course is an argument based on perception,and is not a given reality.

Everyone should be entitled to pick what battles they fight,and wigg has chosen this one.

But with it comes a great deal of financial cost and publicity. 

 

how is the case going GALAH any news from your RIU friend?

[the galah]

 

12 hours ago, LongOwner said:

Any rule enforcement agency should have a system which provides justice - the RIU doesn’t and they are not proactive in creating a set of rules which does -

a) No thresholds for caffeine , cobalt , meths etc - read international athletic rules , Australian cobalt rules , and NZ govt meths thresholds etc .

b) As in this case how can the same office and people be investigator, prosecutor, and then the equivalent of district court judge, high court judge & Supreme Court judge. I have be calling this out for years .

c) Who set the penalties - now that is a mystery! 

 d) RIB cost !!

e) Rouge raids as they hold a vendetta 

f) Waste of our money 

g) Their lack of penalty guidelines (agreed by industry participates) causes the headlines - not me!

Great to see a report with balance which is no based on leaked information and totally biased.

It is like paying 66% tax - you loose respect of the system .

They need to be inclusive and not elite - the ones they harass without foundation are paying their wages by the product the trainer , driver ,and  jockey provide.

Balance is all people ask for and fairness. Not witch hunts. 

You make some good points,but communication is a 2 way thing,

For the good of the industry  enforcement needs to work with industry participants to achieve a common goal.

And in my view  that is where people with similar views to yours let themselves down.

Correct me if i'm wrong,but i've read what you and many others have commented for some time now,and i have formed the opinion based on what you have said,that you consider anyone subject to enforcement action to be the subject of a ''vendetta' as you describe it.

Never once have you commented in a positive way on the RIU censoring those who seek to gain an advantage by way of cheating over the hard working honest trainers. To you and those that agree with you,the victim is the offender,not those who have no level playing field.

You are just as responsible for creating an environment  of distrust as the RIU is.Yet you can't see it.

Tell me,how about you name a handful of trainers who you were unhappy with their actions,and deserved attention from the RIU because of their cheating? i'm waiting.

Your out of touch with what many of the grass roots participants of the industry think.

Have you ever wondered why those that have been charged in recent years just happen to be breaking the rules when the RIU turn up. Its pretty obvious if you don't know. Its because what they are doing would be  regular behavior. I'm sure you don't credit the RIU to have such accurate intelligence or to be so clever to know the exact day those transgressing are going to do something.

How about you have a rethink and consider both sides of the argument. Then when you start talking with more balance,justified criticism of the RIU that you may have will mean more and have more impact.

 

Edited August 17, 2022 by the galah

[Nowornever]

15 hours ago, the galah said:

But i feel strongly that if the industry is to continue,you need strong enforcement.

I agree with that statement but the enforcement should come from people with a strong harness racing background not, and I am quoting de Lore here who I think speaks for 99% of the harness industry at the moment : "a hapless bunch of over-paid dinosaur-like ex-judges and policemen with no racing knowledge, expecting them to exercise justice in an industry in which they are ill-equipped and inadequate."

Edited August 17, 2022 by Nowornever

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Nowornever said:

I agree with that statement but the enforcement should come from people with a strong harness racing background not, and I am quoting de Lore here who I think speaks for 99% of the harness industry at the moment : "a hapless bunch of over-paid dinosaur-like ex-judges and policemen with no racing knowledge, expecting them to exercise justice in an industry in which they are ill-equipped and inadequate."

So your working on the assumption that none of the "hapless bunch" ... have no racing knowledge,nor that backgrounds in uncovering rule breakers and with life long knowledge of passing fair judgment in other jurisdictions has any relevance to whether they can do a decent job.

Instead your suggesting people with strong connections ,whether it be former workmates,extended family members or friends of those they are to investigate and pass judgment on,should instead have those jobs.

Is that what you are saying? If not please clarify,because to me you don't make much sense.

So wigg has made the point,and i accept it a fair one,that for justice to be done,and for it perceived to be done,it must have no potential conflict of interest and must be impartial.

Well your suggesting instead another group with the very same problem take over.

You,and others are just looking for scapegoats. 

It doesn't surprise me you saying de lore speaks for 99% of the harness industry at the moment,i don't believe it ,but one of the most obvious observations anyone can make about the harness racing industry is its an echo chamber.

People say what they know others want to hear,or the say nothing.Thats why whenever anyone gets charged they take it badly,and it often effects their mental health.Haven't you noticed the pattern,its so out there no one can not have seen it. Have you ever actually analysed why that happens. I'm guessing not.

And what about the punter. You do realise that your industry is based on wagering. What punters think matters. It is the difference between losing their support or retaining their participation.

Edited August 18, 2022 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

So your working on the assumption that none of the "hapless bunch" ... have no racing knowledge,nor that backgrounds in uncovering rule breakers and with life long knowledge of passing fair judgment in other jurisdictions has any relevance to whether they can do a decent job.

That would be a good point if it was a fair description of the ex-police recruits.  But it isn't as the majority of them didn't have unblemished careers in the force.

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, the galah said:

You,and others are just looking for scapegoats. 

Still waiting for accountability and integrity to be shown in a review of the INCA debacle.  But then you see INCA as a success because it put the industry on notice.  Regardless that it found SFA crimes to do with harness and cost millions of dollars. 

[LongOwner]

On 18/08/2022 at 1:35 PM, the galah said:

So your working on the assumption that none of the "hapless bunch" ... have no racing knowledge,nor that backgrounds in uncovering rule breakers and with life long knowledge of passing fair judgment in other jurisdictions has any relevance to whether they can do a decent job.

Instead your suggesting people with strong connections ,whether it be former workmates,extended family members or friends of those they are to investigate and pass judgment on,should instead have those jobs.

Is that what you are saying? If not please clarify,because to me you don't make much sense.

So wigg has made the point,and i accept it a fair one,that for justice to be done,and for it perceived to be done,it must have no potential conflict of interest and must be impartial.

Well your suggesting instead another group with the very same problem take over.

You,and others are just looking for scapegoats. 

It doesn't surprise me you saying de lore speaks for 99% of the harness industry at the moment,i don't believe it ,but one of the most obvious observations anyone can make about the harness racing industry is its an echo chamber.

People say what they know others want to hear,or the say nothing.Thats why whenever anyone gets charged they take it badly,and it often effects their mental health.Haven't you noticed the pattern,its so out there no one can not have seen it. Have you ever actually analysed why that happens. I'm guessing not.

And what about the punter. You do realise that your industry is based on wagering. What punters think matters. It is the difference between losing their support or retaining their participation.

RIB has dead body mover, failed police officers with some having  charged  the wrong person for murder , very average - of short duration - junior drivers and didn’t get the top police job who still feels aggrieved silent leader . 
So you think that grouping sets a high enough bar for people to follow and respect ? 

[hunterthepunter]

1 hour ago, LongOwner said:

RIB has dead body mover, failed police officers with some having  charged  the wrong person for murder , very average - of short duration - junior drivers and didn’t get the top police job who still feels aggrieved silent leader . 
So you think that grouping sets a high enough bar for people to follow and respect ? 

plus ex publican .