Can Harness Racing afford these Premiere meetings at the moment??

[Chief Stipe]

7 hours ago, the galah said:

The dunn horses may improve a bit come the bigger days,but what you get is pretty much what you see all year round. The all stars can lift performance on the group one days beyond what is previously seen by their horses performances during the non group one days. People draw their own conclusions as to how..Thats the reason behind why people often talk about the all stars.

Did you stop to think that they leave something in the tank on non-Group days or in the week prior so they have an edge on the big days?

Perhaps the All-Star stable is good at winding up and winding down individual training programmes.  

[Chief Stipe]

7 hours ago, the galah said:

Thats why i would say sundees son deserves to be called a champion trotter.

Arguably either you or Gammalite could train Sundees Son to be a top liner.

[Chief Stipe]

7 hours ago, the galah said:

Is there not a logic there where you could say the dunn stables are the better trainers as they can get their horses to perform closer to their peak all year round,and not just on a handful of days.

But don't "people talk about" the Dunn's just as much?  For example the "Woodend Magic"?  

Most of the talk is based on envy and the unfortunate part of Kiwi culture the "Tall Poppy Syndrome".

[Blackie]

10 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Never beat Mark there , even in the 80's lol. He's Always been good that young man.

Blackie's record in races MP driving in : Blackie -  2

                                                                   MP       - nil

He's just lucky I retired when I did(think I had the better horse both times just quietly).

                           

[the galah]

8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Did you stop to think that they leave something in the tank on non-Group days or in the week prior so they have an edge on the big days?

Perhaps the All-Star stable is good at winding up and winding down individual training programmes.  

That theory makes no sense when you look at individual horses performances. 

For example take the horses vinke b and final collect.

Vinke b on cup day ran a very good second in  a 1.54.4 mile rate. Then it drops in class significantly at timaru  11 days later,but runs last of 6,beaten on its merits by 7 lengths..Even a 9 start non win horse went better.Then,2 weeks later on sunday,it runs a very respectable 5th in a 1.53.4 mile rate in the group 1 race,beaten by only 4.5 lengths.

Final collect ran an excellent 7th, after doing a lot of work wide in the group 1 race on cup day run in a 1.53.6 mile rate,11 days later at timaru it was understandably a red hot favorite in the 6 horse race at timaru,but managed only 3rd after having every chance. Then 2 weeks later in the group 1 race on sunday it again does a lot of work wide,yet still manages to run 4th in a 1.53 mile rate beaten by just 4.5 lengths.

There are so many examples i could use,but they are just a couple from sunday.

So anyone,well anyone who doesn't have an all star eye patch on,would look at that and say,how come the significant difference in performance.The difference in performance by both horses is so glaringly obvious.

The all stars have very high standards anytime they line up anywhere,but when you break down individual performances,then you start to ask how come the difference?

Your theory has them having a big drop off in form in 11 days,then the significant increase in performance 14 days later,all through just training. As i said,that makes little sense.

Edited December 6, 2022 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

27 minutes ago, the galah said:

Vinke b on cup day ran a very good second in  a 1.54.4 mile rate. Then it drops in class significantly at timaru  11 days later,but runs last of 6,beaten on its merits by 7 lengths..Even a 9 start non win horse went better.Then,2 weeks later on sunday,it runs a very respectable 5th in a 1.53.4 mile rate in the group 1 race,beaten by only 4.5 lengths.

Final collect ran an excellent 7th, after doing a lot of work wide in the group 1 race on cup day run in a 1.53.6 mile rate,11 days later at timaru it was understandably a red hot favorite in the 6 horse race at timaru,but managed only 3rd after having every chance. Then 2 weeks later in the group 1 race on sunday it again does a lot of work wide,yet still manages to run 4th in a 1.53 mile rate beaten by just 4.5 lengths

Eh?!  Your examples are for horses that ran 4th and 5th?

[the galah]

8 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Eh?!  Your examples are for horses that ran 4th and 5th?

My examples compare the difference in performance on the big days(group 1 races) to the run of the mill days.In the examples i gave, the runs came within a short space of time,with the significant drop off in form in the middle of that 3 1/2 week time frame.

[Gammalite]

42 minutes ago, the galah said:

My examples compare the difference in performance on the big days(group 1 races) to the run of the mill days.In the examples i gave, the runs came within a short space of time,with the significant drop off in form in the middle of that 3 1/2 week time frame.

Mate , I see what you are saying but in even the great stable you can't expect them to Win every race every time. Vinke B and lets say Chambray (battled on for 6 th in Oaks)  as well , aren't the greatest horses going around ?. Chambray was rank outsider and has 2 wins from 10. so is only slightly above average. 

Queen of Diamonds for example,  is doing the exact 'Opposite' of what you claim . winning in the country lead-ups and then flopping lately in the 2 Group 1's she competed in. Mark driving it too . not Cox or other.

All 3 of those horses will Win somewhere again. Think you are being quite harsh saying what you do as who places their horses better than Allstars ? Just Emma Stewart that I know of. .....everyone else hammering away week to week trying to earn a crust lol 😉.

anyway what a good days racing it was . Muscle Mountain was awesome. BD Joe just 'murdered' the Allstars too. That was a great performance against your Nz FFA winner running 2nd. Big day improvement ? lol....

 

 

[Blackie]

There’s probably no one better, ever that I’ve known, than MP is for setting a horse for a race, no stone unturned I’d suggest. Easy afterwards but typical was Akuta winning the Derby, MP loves winning that one. Just gets pipped a week before, pull down blinds go on, finds 10 lengths.

What hasn’t been discussed is what a great driver he is , always in the right place, got plenty of time like a good footballer, seldom unlucky and gets beaten on his merits. You’ve only got to look at his record on the horses he doesn’t train. 
 

[Gammalite]

8 hours ago, Blackie said:

Blackie's record in races MP driving in : Blackie -  2

                                                                   MP       - nil

He's just lucky I retired when I did(think I had the better horse both times just quietly).

                           

hahaha yeah went up to Ruakaka 40 years ago with Marky Boy in the back of the 9 horse transporter , when he won his first ever race on 'Dark and Dusty'. He got a second win with that one too at Auckland in a junior drivers race. don't think I beat Mark in about 5 attempts lol. Once a gun . nice to see someone actually beat him lol. well done.

 

10 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Arguably either you or Gammalite could train Sundees Son to be a top liner.

Think he had a few tricks at one stage Chief and I'd be 'No hope' of getting him going. Full credit to Dunns. Had /have him trotting as 'Fast as the Pacers' . quite a phenominal training effort... Never drove a trotter in a race either. weren't in Qld till very late 90's. When a heap of old Nz trotters were imported to get it going. still do that now !!

Hey this very week , one has actually made the Grand Final of the Interdominion ! Old Cambridge horse MAJESTIC HARRY is in the final for the gorgeous Britney Graham from sky channel who part owns and drives . He's won $80k for her this year too.  Best of Luck to her to get some of it next Saturday !!!

[the galah]

46 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Mate , I see what you are saying but in even the great stable you can't expect them to Win every race every time. Vinke B and lets say Chambray (battled on for 6 th in Oaks)  as well , aren't the greatest horses going around ?. Chambray was rank outsider and has 2 wins from 10. so is only slightly above average. 

Queen of Diamonds for example,  is doing the exact 'Opposite' of what you claim . winning in the country lead-ups and then flopping lately in the 2 Group 1's she competed in. Mark driving it too . not Cox or other.

All 3 of those horses will Win somewhere again. Think you are being quite harsh saying what you do as who places their horses better than Allstars ? Just Emma Stewart that I know of. .....everyone else hammering away week to week trying to earn a crust lol 😉.

anyway what a good days racing it was . Muscle Mountain was awesome. BD Joe just 'murdered' the Allstars too. That was a great performance against your Nz FFA winner running 2nd. Big day improvement ? lol....

 

 

What punters hope for is consistency in performance so you can make true assessments based on current form. When form varies between  big stake days and run of the mill days,then its hard to assess.

Emma stewart. I guess the way you think you would see emma stewart as a good comparison.

Doesn't she make all other victorian trainers look like mugs. Wins everything,improves anything she gets,they keep running no matter how fast they go.Great trainer that woman.....

[the galah]

26 minutes ago, the galah said:

 

Emma stewart. I guess the way you think you would see emma stewart as a good comparison.

Doesn't she make all other victorian trainers look like mugs. Wins everything,improves anything she gets,they keep running no matter how fast they go.Great trainer that woman.....

actually its a wonder that emma stewart racing cheat facebook  mock page was around so long. Is it still going?

I see archie butterfly,loves to write about that stable as well.

Do you think the unnamed"respected trainers and veterinarians"who were said to have approached a reporter who wrote a  major article in the news last month about high profile trainers using performance enhancers in victoria,were real or were the sources just envious and bitter trainers abd vets or maybe they were just made up.Do you believe that racing victora was correct when it says they can test for epo,and didn't believe the article was accurate.. Who actually believes that they can test for all variations of epo anyway. Seems rather ignorant of victorian officials to say something so obviously inaccurate. Only in aussie i guess.

[Chief Stipe]

14 minutes ago, the galah said:

Do you believe that racing victora was correct when it says they can test for epo,and didn't believe the article was accurate.. Who actually believes that they can test for all variations of epo anyway. Seems rather ignorant of victorian officials to say something so obviously inaccurate. Only in aussie i guess

Why is it inaccurate?  I've been saying for a long time that you can test for anything and find anything you want to.  

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why is it inaccurate?  I've been saying for a long time that you can test for anything and find anything you want to.  

We have had this conversation before.

The head of testing for the new york lab,regarded as one of the USA"s premire equine drug testing facilities,earlier this year when asked about all the trainers and vets involved in that huge performance enhancer scandel in horse racing,especially new york harness,was asked why there was enough evidence to jail and fnancially ruin all those caught through extensive evidence gathered which proved drug use without positive results. was quoted

He was quoted"heres the problem,the so called performance enhancers drugs,no one,nobody,knows what they are. Nobody has a test for them.

He then used the example of EPO. When asked about  the 82 kinds of epo worldwide,stated they can only test for 3 of those "they've been synthesized, they're available. So if your testing for epo and your only doing 3 and there are another 70 plus out there,who are you kidding".

Remember chief i quoted that when i was started a topic about the high profile NZ harness bloodstock agent that was listed as a cliient of the jailed distributor. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by the galah

[Gammalite]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

Emma stewart. I guess the way you think you would see emma stewart as a good comparison.

Doesn't she make all other victorian trainers look like mugs. Wins everything,improves anything she gets,they keep running no matter how fast they go.Great trainer that woman.....

I'm in total awe. just uncanny how many they win. EVERY year she just about takes the Trifecta in all the age group sires stakes races.  The mega-star Vinnie Knight could get horses in and work wonders too. It's a lot to do with the fast work they do with them. 

Could be a' Weight of Numbers' thing too that I mentioned earlier. Five in the Interdominion Final this week for Emma Stewart !!!!!!! If she doesn't Win that, there's something wrong lol.

Yes a great comparison!!   To the FIVE horses that Allstars got in the 2019 Interdominion Grand Final at Auckland not that long ago. (Nat winning of course)  think John Dunn drove one. that was really funny to pop on the arch rival lol. 

2 hours ago, the galah said:

What punters hope for is consistency in performance so you can make true assessments based on current form. When form varies between  big stake days and run of the mill days,then its hard to assess

Just a minor thing that I know you realise. The Harness horses a WAY way more consistant than thoroughbreds. Form lines are way easier to read. esp times run. 

Thoroughbreds race from first-up (usually unplaced)  to fitness across 2 or 3 more races sometimes, and peak at a certain target race. no one says anything?. I actually think Most Pacers and trotters CAN win first up . The Trainers are very good . esp NZ Premier Ones 😉🥇

Edited December 6, 2022 by Gammalite

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

I'm in total awe. just uncanny how many they win. EVERY year she just about takes the Trifecta in all the age group sires stakes races.  The mega-star Vinnie Knight could get horses in and work wonders too. It's a lot to do with the fast work they do with them. 

 

You say ..its a lot to do with the fast work they do with them. 

So,if that really is the case,you might have thought some other harness trainers would have cottoned on to doing the same thing. .

Emma stewarts partner, Clayton tonkin was the blue magic man wasn't he. Things like that are never forgotten are they. 

Edited December 6, 2022 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, the galah said:

Emma stewarts partner, Clayton tonkin was the blue magic man wasn't he. Things like that are never forgotten are they. 

Why do you call Tonkin "the blue magic man"?

[Chief Stipe]

10 hours ago, the galah said:

The head of testing for the new york lab,regarded as one of the USA"s premire equine drug testing facilities,earlier this year when asked about all the trainers and vets involved in that huge performance enhancer scandel in horse racing,especially new york harness,was asked why there was enough evidence to jail and fnancially ruin all those caught through extensive evidence gathered which proved drug use without positive results. was quoted

He was quoted"heres the problem,the so called performance enhancers drugs,no one,nobody,knows what they are. Nobody has a test for them.

Yes and at the time I found that a very odd thing to say given what I've experienced hands-on with modern testing systems.  Upon further investigation I came to the conclusion that the New York Lab is so far behind the times that it is irrelevant.  

The so called "scandal" is related to essentially mail fraud - in the States fraud is treated seriously.  The majority of those convicted were responsible for fraud.  They were manufacturing and dealing in unregistered, unlicensed and falsely labelled substances. The so called testing lab had samples of these so called performance-enhancing drugs - where are the results of their analysis?  Where was the retrospective testing of samples?

[Chief Stipe]

11 hours ago, the galah said:

He then used the example of EPO. When asked about  the 82 kinds of epo worldwide,stated they can only test for 3 of those "they've been synthesized, they're available. So if your testing for epo and your only doing 3 and there are another 70 plus out there,who are you kidding".

I read that statement and researched the person who said it.  His lab is archaic and the guy isn't up with the play which led me to look at the RIB owned company in NZ that does NZ's testing.  I came to the conclusion they are very similar.

The New York guy is 10 years behind the play.

Where is the evidence that EPO enhances horse performance anyway?  The physiology of a horse makes it very unlikely that EPO would have an effect anyway.

[The Major]

15 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Mate , I see what you are saying but in even the great stable you can't expect them to Win every race every time. Vinke B and lets say Chambray (battled on for 6 th in Oaks)  as well , aren't the greatest horses going around ?. Chambray was rank outsider and has 2 wins from 10. so is only slightly above average. 

Queen of Diamonds for example,  is doing the exact 'Opposite' of what you claim . winning in the country lead-ups and then flopping lately in the 2 Group 1's she competed in. Mark driving it too . not Cox or other.

All 3 of those horses will Win somewhere again. Think you are being quite harsh saying what you do as who places their horses better than Allstars ? Just Emma Stewart that I know of. .....everyone else hammering away week to week trying to earn a crust lol 😉.

anyway what a good days racing it was . Muscle Mountain was awesome. BD Joe just 'murdered' the Allstars too. That was a great performance against your Nz FFA winner running 2nd. Big day improvement ? lol....

 

 

Chambray should never have got a start in the Oaks.Horses with better formline on the ballot.Just another example of preferential treatment!

 

 

 

[the galah]

6 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why do you call Tonkin "the blue magic man"?

Because at that time he got disqualified for 4 positives relating to blue magic.

 

5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I read that statement and researched the person who said it.  His lab is archaic and the guy isn't up with the play which led me to look at the RIB owned company in NZ that does NZ's testing.  I came to the conclusion they are very similar.

The New York guy is 10 years behind the play.

Where is the evidence that EPO enhances horse performance anyway?  The physiology of a horse makes it very unlikely that EPO would have an effect anyway.

So you came to the conclusion...... the new york lab is archaic,.....and  very similar to the one that does nz testing.

So i guess that means if you think they are similar,then they have similar abilities to pick up the use of performance enhancers.

Based on what the head of the main lab in new york says,he agrees with you. Obviously his "who are you kidding" comment about whether they were picking up the actual use of performance enhancers,indicates that.

You say its very unlikely Epo  enhances performance. Doesn't seem a realistic stance,but thats the conclusion you seem to have drawn from your research.

The new york cases has so many aspects that were so interesting.One was the different stance taken by the likes of those who ran the meadowlands,from the United states trotting assocaition.

The conclusion from the different stances they took were those who run the meadowlands were keen to have the use of performance enhancers exposed,whereas the governing body for harness racing in the USA did what they could to discourage whistleblowers.

One of the early whistleblowers during an interview discouraged anyone thinking about disclosing illegal activity in the sport,from doing so. She said her life had been hell since coming forward,and it wasn't worth it. What does that say?

Also,one of the main drug distributors in a recent interview said there were still lots and lots of his clients training who had sought his performance enhancers,but he wasn't going to name names as they were good people. The rationale of that sounds so familiar doesn't it.

[the galah]

Also as regards the new york cases. 

I've often wondered why harnesslink chose to publish an article disclosing many on the client list of the biggest drug distributor.

Given harnesslink in nz is associated with the only nz person named,it seemed a bit strange.

Anyone who had read harnesslink would have known curtin was not a supporter of jeff gural and had published several articles on harnesslink  to that effect,heavily criticising the meadowlands for banning suspected trainers for using performance enhancers,without evidence. 

Was that the connection that led gural to have a hand in the publishing of the list.Was it some type of payback? who knows. Of course history now shows that gural already knew who was tied up in the use of perfomance enhancers due to his links with the investigation. Did nz racing authorities ever bother to investigate that.Maybe they haven't as after al,l it could open up a can of worms that they wouldn't want to go near. Then again,maybe it would prove there wasn't much to it.Who knows that as well.

[Gammalite]

5 hours ago, The Major said:

Chambray should never have got a start in the Oaks.Horses with better formline on the ballot.Just another example of preferential treatment!

 

 

 

Yes just having a look and see 2 of the Emergencies Coachella and Anna Love have 2 lifetime wins . The same as Chambray (who won both hers at Addington so possibly higher rating ones) 

The 3rd horse that was emergency for the Oaks JOES ROCK has 4 lifetime wins so yeah, I would of chucked her in for a crack at it ahead of Chambray personally. Chambray with a very high profile ownership group I spose, gets the favours. 

[Chief Stipe]

4 hours ago, the galah said:

So i guess that means if you think they are similar,then they have similar abilities to pick up the use of performance enhancers.

If the Feds had seized bottles of performance enhancers where are the positive results from testing said bottles showing EPO in them?

[Chief Stipe]

5 hours ago, the galah said:

So you came to the conclusion...... the new york lab is archaic,.....and  very similar to the one that does nz testing.

So i guess that means if you think they are similar,then they have similar abilities to pick up the use of performance enhancers.

No what I'm saying is that the comment you quoted from the New York Lab representative saying they couldn't detect EPO or some performance enhancers wasn't because the technology is not available as you infer, but because he is either incompetent or the lab isn't up to standard.

Can you please post a link to where the Feds declare that they found EPO in the bottles they seized?

FFS you caste aspersions when a horse runs a fifth in Group race as evidence that its performance has "improved"!