One for the Conspiracists! Nothing found at the Telfers.

[Chief Stipe]

Racing Integrity Board Investigation into recent horse fatalities regarding the Stonewall Stud of Steve and Amanda Telfer

Category: News | Uncategorized

Date: 09/01/2023

 

A thorough investigation has been concluded by the RIB staff into the race day deaths of three horses, Cya Doit, Alta Debonair and Seasider.

There is no evidence to suggest that either Steve or Amanda Telfer, or any other persons associated with the horses prior to these races, have either deliberately or mistakenly, caused the unfortunate deaths of these three horses.

The investigation, which included postmortem examinations, toxicology tests and expert opinions from several veterinary staff, determined that these deaths were the result of unrelated sudden medical events.

[Chief Stipe]

I guess @the galah will tell us that it only proves that there is a mystery illegal PED that is undectable!  Even with a full post mortem undertaken.

Yeah right!  No doubt @Archie Butterfly will spin it out for a bit.  No pun intended.

[Nowornever]

Any data over the past several years for harness racing deaths on the track that are sudden medical events? 

Could be better or worse than previous years but without that data then it is subjective BS in my opinion.

[the galah]

Your a funny man chief.

Did you really think anyone thought an official investigation would openly conclude anything different. 

Of course they should have investigated,but  an investigation was only ever going achieve "we will be watching you more closely in the future". 

You can go on sticking your head who knows where,but like i said at the time...

In a 4 month period,between may and september last year,they lined up just the 34 horses,and 3 died. Also one was supposed to have pulled up with a hock fracture.

 So you do the maths. 1 in every 10 they took to the races in that 4 month timeframe died,3 in identical collapsing circumstances.

As to archie butterfly,i'm not a subscriber to his website,although i believe he also referenced the death of another horse that went to aussie.

One last thing. Can you give me the name of  any vet who thinks that the stats i have referred to are a sign of "nothing to see".Vets i thought are there to care for the horses in times of need.

 

[Gammalite]

The horses bodies are put under extreme pressure as racehorses. I'm surprised more of them don't have heart attacks. Plenty of them have burst vessels in the respiratory system though. and serve 3 months for a bleed. The heart a little tougher than lungs. happens somewhere daily.

Knee chips, cracked bones , bowed tendons , all sorts of things go on , (as per human athletes) It's what you get when you put a large animal under flat out duress at various points. 

Why some want to blame 'one' stable is a Mystery. It happens at every stable at some stage.

and of course it is 'Way more Likely' to occur at a stable that has

1/   Has More Horses     2/ Horses that go faster/harder 

3/ therefore sadly the leading stables have more equine stars that fit the bill. Even Popular Alm snapped a pedal bone trying so hard for Vinnie. Plenty broke down there,  as sadly have Allstars had to endure . And now Telfers as they get Bigger , Faster and more numbers. 

All these stables (every stable) Love Their Horses. There is No conspiracy to kill your Horses. natural attrition unfortunately.

 

[Chief Stipe]

@the galah if you want to look at the stats check how many don't make it the races at many of the best stables?  I'll tell you what you should conclude and that is the top stables train their horses very very hard.  The attrition rate is massive.

But as I guessd you have signed up to the conspiracy theory in the absence of any evidence.  Now you are suggesting the RIB are in on it.

[the galah]

23 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

Any data over the past several years for harness racing deaths on the track that are sudden medical events? 

Could be better or worse than previous years but without that data then it is subjective BS in my opinion.

Do you follow harness racing. I had thought so ,but maybe not if your suggesting that on track horse deaths are a common occurence.

You do realise that a horse that dies on track gets a mention in the stipes report.People also see it.

But to give you a chance to prove your point,and to prove that it is not you that is really talking BS,name a couple.

I can think of a couple of others in the last 2 years. Its a very,very rare occurence,but hey prove me wrong and supply me some names.

Maybe gammalite or chief could help you out with some names?

Edited January 9, 2023 by the galah

[Nowornever]

4 minutes ago, the galah said:

Do you follow harness racing. I had thought so ,but maybe not if your suggesting that on track horse deaths are a common occurence.

You do realise that a that dies on track gets a mention in the stipes report.People also see it.

But to give you a chance to prove your point,and to prove that it is not you that is really talking BS,name a couple.

I can think of a couple of others in the last 2 years. Its a very,very rare occurence,but hey prove me wrong and supply me some names.

I am not suggesting it is a common occurrence, that is you putting words in my mouth, but I would like to see the stats over the last 10 or so years so I can make an educated decision based on facts.  I even saw a trotter drop dead at the trials just after the finish not that long ago so may be more common than you think.

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Nowornever said:

I am not suggesting it is a common occurrence, that is you putting words in my mouth, but I would like to see the stats over the last 10 or so years so I can make an educated decision based on facts.  I even saw a trotter drop dead at the trials just after the finish not that long ago so may be more common than you think.

thats fair enough although you did say what i was saying was subjective BS. I am very,very confident that if someone was to produce the data,if they kept it,what i am saying about the circumstances being a very rare occurrence(prior to telfers) would be correct.

I think you already knew that when you said it was BS.

I can remember being on course when inky lord dropped dead at the end of the cup trial. He died of a ruptured aorta. We know what the most likely contributory factor to that was,but it was legal within a certain timeframe at the time. Still was that fair on the horse? 

I also recall watching a horse have a heart attack about 30 years ago in track work. But i have no recollection of ever being on track and witnessing a horse collapse and die during a race. No doubt it may have happened,but it tends to be something that you don't forget seeing and i used to go to the races most weeks.

 I'm not talking about horse deaths as a result of injury.That is not related to how these horses die.

Anyway,i hope the spotlight being shone on these deaths leads to greater thought being given to any horses health and well being.

The telfer stable was our leading stable last year,and well done to them for that. They have very high standards,but they must already realise this type of thing was not a good look for them or harness racing.

Edited January 9, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

35 minutes ago, the galah said:

thats fair enough although you did say what i was saying was subjective BS. I am very,very confident that if someone was to produce the data,if they kept it,what i am saying about the circumstances being a very rare occurrence(prior to telfers) would be correct

How many horses go through the Telfer system?  Let's start with that first Galah.

[Basil]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

How many horses go through the Telfer system?  Let's start with that first Galah.

Being conservative, I'd estimate the number of standardbred sudden deaths while racing is about 1 in 10000 (at worst). So work out what the probability of 'three unrelated sudden medical events' is and start with that.

[paleface adios]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

 

I can remember being on course when inky lord dropped dead at the end of the cup trial. He died of a ruptured aorta. We know what the most likely contributory factor to that was,but it was legal within a certain timeframe at the time. 

are you saying it was doped at the cup trial? why would they do that?

[paleface adios]

17 minutes ago, Basil said:

Being conservative, I'd estimate the number of standardbred sudden deaths while racing is about 1 in 10000 (at worst). So work out what the probability of 'three unrelated sudden medical events' is and start with that.

contaminated feed?

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Basil said:

Being conservative, I'd estimate the number of standardbred sudden deaths while racing is about 1 in 10000 (at worst). So work out what the probability of 'three unrelated sudden medical events' is and start with that.

You base your estimate on what data?  Does every stable report the deaths of horses in work?  

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

The telfer stable was our leading stable last year,and well done to them for that. They have very high standards,but they must already realise this type of thing was not a good look for them or harness racing.

You seem to be the only person worrying about the good or bad look.  Livestock - shit happens.

[Gammalite]

Mr Galah has turned into a nightmare for the Telfer barn. Most are in awe that someone is pushing Allstars and even getting one of their main men on board this year after changing camps. (Cullen) best of luck to them all. 

Whatever maths The Galah and Basil want to use , it is safe to say that Every Barn is at risk of a heart failure or a lung bleed with their stock, and most with a moderate to large number of horses would of experienced the pain of a 'drop-dead' at some stage and Will again in the future. Gallops stables have even 'finer' animals that are even more pre-disposed to sudden collapse from what i've seen. 

I feel very sad to learn that INKY LORD passed in this manner today. (and generally just sad reading this thread) 

[the galah]

1 hour ago, paleface adios said:

are you saying it was doped at the cup trial? why would they do that?

Well what was that stable known to do.I aren't suggesting it was anything illegal, as it wasn't at the time.

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, the galah said:

Well what was that stable known to do.I aren't suggesting it was anything illegal, as it wasn't at the time.

Then what ARE you "suggesting"?

From my hands on experience the best stables take no prisoners and work their horses hard.  Fact of life there will be casualties.  If you don't know that then you are naive.

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Basil said:

Being conservative, I'd estimate the number of standardbred sudden deaths while racing is about 1 in 10000 (at worst). So work out what the probability of 'three unrelated sudden medical events' is and start with that.

I have done a bit of goggling.Theres many studies that you can read the results of.

First you had to define what it was. -sudden athletic death-defined as comprising all fatalities in which there is acute collapse and death in a healthy horse during or immediately after exercise.. That seems to fit what happened to the telfers.

As relates to racetrack incidences of sudden athletic death.

an australian study last year found there was 1-3 deaths per 10,000 starts.

A californian study found 1 per 9,000 starts or 1 per 160,000 training days.

in norway and sweden in 6 years from 2014-1019 they had  a total of 30 sudden athletic horse deaths from pulmonary or cardiac causes. That was from 816,085 race starts.

And here in NZ we had the telfer stable have 3 deaths from not much over 100 starts in the mentioned timeframe.

How anyone could say what happened with the telfer stable is not unusual defies common sense.

As to the RIB's findings.

One study of sudden athletic horse deaths involving 6 countries and different racing jurisdictions found that pathologists were only able to make a definitive diagnosis in 53% of cases.25% were presumed and 22% unknown.

As to treatments being to blame,one study concluded no one can say for certain as yet. Some drugs were believed to be factors,as evidenced by certain trainers having a run of deaths, and treating their horses the same,but their was no definitive proof as yet. Just suggestions their is a link.

So,why should we believe the RIB's  vets,when other expert equine pathologists and researchers have found what i have mentioned above.

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

in norway and sweden in 6 years from 2014-1019 they had  a total of 30 sudden athletic horse deaths from pulmonary or cardiac causes. That was from 816,085 race starts.

Which trainer had 800k race starts?

[the galah]

26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Which trainer had 800k race starts?

Don't know why you ask that. The number of race starts was the total combined number for every horse that started in those countries over the 6 year time frame.

So on average those countries had that type of race death per 27202 starts.

Even if you were to include the whole 506 starts the telfer horses had last year,the telfer stable had 53 times higher rate of race deaths than the whole of norway and sweden averaged..

Someone asked for the stats. Well they just prove what some of us have been saying.

Edited January 9, 2023 by the galah

[Brodie]

Personally would be far more concerned with the increase of deaths in humans over the past couple of years that is being hushed up!

When did we ever have ads on TV about heart attacks, and shingles etc?

Never until after the Pfizer jabs were given to most of the population and for what?

Locked the country down gave away billions and now we are paying for it!

Why are they now not worried about all the positive tests and deaths when it was so worrying to them before?

Why?

Because it is the biggest scam in human history and the ones getting crook or dieing are the ones that believed that they were being vaccinated by an approved substance!

 

[Forbury]

13 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I guess @the galah will tell us that it only proves that there is a mystery illegal PED that is undectable!  Even with a full post mortem undertaken.

Yeah right!  No doubt @Archie Butterfly will spin it out for a bit.  No pun intended

No one is that good of a trainer like Jason Grimson.when I've seen people like him getting the results he is getting there is only one thing behind it.undecteable drugs 100%.i know it's not fact or to slender his image that's just my opinion with no evidence expect he's improving horses two laps lol

[Chief Stipe]

9 hours ago, the galah said:

9 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Which trainer had 800k race starts?

Don't know why you ask that. The number of race starts was the total combined number for every horse that started in those countries over the 6 year time frame.

So on average those countries had that type of race death per 27202 starts.

Even if you were to include the whole 506 starts the telfer horses had last year,the telfer stable had 53 times higher rate of race deaths than the whole of norway and sweden averaged

What the Telfers had 53 race deaths?

[Chief Stipe]

So how many race deaths have the All Stars and the Dunn stables had this past season?  They both have earned more stakes than the Telfers and Purdon has a better strike rate by a large margin.