Why would Riccarton be irrigating?

[mardigras]

1 hour ago, curious said:

Didn't see any races but the mdns ran 1.10 in the first and the R65 and open sprinters 1.09.5? Is that not consistent with a G3? Mardi may be able to assist with a relative performance indicator of the track condition that the times were consistent with?

in my view, the first race is consistent with a G3. In fact, for a maiden to run that put it into the top 50% of all runs on a G3 over that distance on that track. And to put that into perspective, it would be in the top 25% of runs if it was as slow as a 4.

The races were generally around expected for a G3 on that track for the types of horses. And they were faster than what you would expect from a 4. And unheard of for a 5 in the case of the 1.09.5 1200m performances.

So I'd say, it ran like a 3 all day.

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Reefton said:

You're all making excuses again. Was the track a good three or wasn't it? It was stated as such and a good three is firm.  In all my years I have never ever heard of a firm track where horses did not feel comfortable stretching out (unless it was too firm for individual horses of course but this was clearly entire fields) . Clearly that track was not a good three based on the times they were running.  You lot are like Donald Trump's mob trying to deny the reality we can see in front of us.  It looked to me that the grass was odd - like when the lawn gets away and you cannot mow it with the catcher - and I suspect that grass clippings were what was being thrown up.

For all that I reckon the racing was Ok but Winston needs to do something about that easterly - he is apparently God and has a friend they call the Messiah so he is bound to be able to fix it.

As for putting clay into a track that would strike me as total madness.  Clay holds water and what the hell do you want to hold water for? (especially when you have a track like Riccarton which really does get atrocious when wet and especially when you have a Track  manager always looking for an excuse to plaster water all over it).  Clay is why Kumara and Hokitika are bogs and it is now apparent to me how they stuffed Greymouth which was a beautiful free draining riverbed course but is now a shit hole when wet - I bet they put clay into it. All the more reason why they should not be touching courses.  

And getting back to these undulations - I have heaps of videos of Riccarton pre that work twenty years ago and I can't see any undulations.  More BS to justify a botched job. Mr Illusion certainly didn't seem to have trouble with 'undulations'

All in all these 'experts' have well and truly over complicated things and are now always seeking to justify the cockups.

And before you lot say I am living in the past can I ask if that is the past where NZ had a selection of top quality horses (for whom the Aussie's would sit up and take notice when they ventured westward), when there were a selection of jockeys who you would be happy to take to Aussie to ride your hopeful, when there were a selection of Kiwi Trainers (instead of just one now)  that the Aussie's respected, when meeting cancellations were a real rarity and when the officials (ie stipes) were really respected, and when you actually got the odd person onto our racecourses?  If that is the past they I don't mind living in it.

I don't think we are ALL making excuses.  My point is that a G3 rating is meaningless given that the track is stuffed.  The penetrometer rated it a G3 assuming it had actually been used and used correctly.  That doesn't mean it was actually a decent surface for a horse to race on.

It is interesting to hark back to the Grey Way days.  I looked at some old videos recently and I noted that the tracks weren't in much better nick than today.  Trentham particularly was appalling.

[Reefton]

3 hours ago, mardigras said:

in my view, the first race is consistent with a G3. In fact, for a maiden to run that put it into the top 50% of all runs on a G3 over that distance on that track. And to put that into perspective, it would be in the top 25% of runs if it was as slow as a 4.

The races were generally around expected for a G3 on that track for the types of horses. And they were faster than what you would expect from a 4. And unheard of for a 5 in the case of the 1.09.5 1200m performances.

So I'd say, it ran like a 3 all day.

look at Riccarton usually.  1.08 for  1200

2000m races in 2.05?  Expect 2.02 or better

Accept it it wasn't a G3.  The evidence is overwelming

[Reefton]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

I don't think we are ALL making excuses.  My point is that a G3 rating is meaningless given that the track is stuffed.  The penetrometer rated it a G3 assuming it had actually been used and used correctly.  That doesn't mean it was actually a decent surface for a horse to race on.

It is interesting to hark back to the Grey Way days.  I looked at some old videos recently and I noted that the tracks weren't in much better nick than today.  Trentham particularly was appalling.

What was that 1200m time Blue Blood went in the Telegraph when there was noses between him Mop and Panagor? 

Trentham was a bog in the winter but it is still a bog in the winter and the bog season is a lot longer at Trentham now  

There are too many dung hill tracks in this Country, invariably they have been played around with and cocked up and invariably they are on Winsome's 'keep' lists

Riccarton is not stuffed incidentally - it has improved vastly in the last couple of years but clearly was over watered prior to yesterday.  And that is the point I have been making all week.  Pike and Te Akau would not be hanging around down here is it was stuffed.

[mardigras]

5 minutes ago, Reefton said:

look at Riccarton usually.  1.08 for  1200

2000m races in 2.05?  Expect 2.02 or better

Accept it it wasn't a G3.  The evidence is overwelming

Funnily enough, I have times for 3500 horses running over 1200m at Riccarton. On a G3, 8 times have they run 1.08 or better. Perhaps you can show me all these 1.08s. I only have 27 horses on any condition running 1.08 or better. Are these 1.08s hidden from the public?

Can you give a race where they have run 1.08 or better in the last year at Riccarton over 1200?

As for the 2:05, one race is meaningless of the track state. And even 2:05 is OK for 2000m on a G3. Take a look at Vantaa winning in February this year. 2:08+ on a track rated G3. maybe all the times they rate it a G3, it is wrong.

[mardigras]

28 minutes ago, Reefton said:

2000m races in 2.05?  Expect 2.02 or better

Expect 2:02 or better. Where are you getting your times from. We are in the 21st century. 

[Boxie]

1 hour ago, Reefton said:

What was that 1200m time Blue Blood went in the Telegraph when there was noses between him Mop and Panagor? 

Trentham was a bog in the winter but it is still a bog in the winter and the bog season is a lot longer at Trentham now  

There are too many dung hill tracks in this Country, invariably they have been played around with and cocked up and invariably they are on Winsome's 'keep' lists

Riccarton is not stuffed incidentally - it has improved vastly in the last couple of years but clearly was over watered prior to yesterday.  And that is the point I have been making all week.  Pike and Te Akau would not be hanging around down here is it was stuffed.

They hang around to burgle Cup week.  They also "hang around" at Te Rapa and we all know that track is stuffed.

[Boxie]

50 minutes ago, mardigras said:

Expect 2:02 or better. Where are you getting your times from. We are in the 21st century. 

I don't get your 21st century remark but I do know it is very very rare for top horses to run better than 2:02 on the best Met tracks rating G3 in OZ.

Also Reefton hasn't factored in the drop in quality of horse running around in some grades.  You only have to look at the average ratings.

[mardigras]

3 minutes ago, Boxie said:

I don't get your 21st century remark but I do know it is very very rare for top horses to run better than 2:02 on the best Met tracks rating G3 in OZ.

Also Reefton hasn't factored in the drop in quality of horse running around in some grades.  You only have to look at the average ratings.

That comes from some historic references that have been made in this thread. So I don't know what times they ran in the 20th century. But in the 21st, they don't run the times suggested often, if at all.

[mardigras]

As for 2:02 across tracks. tracks are all different. Flemington runs a reasonable number under 2:02. Albury is a fast track over 2000m and Caulfield is pretty quick also. Te Rapa would be NZ's fastest track generally over 2000m in my opinion (excluding Thames which runs on some hard tracks and goes reasonably quick times)

[wally]

On 19/09/2018 at 8:46 AM, Reefton said:

According to last night's telly weather forecast it is supposed to rain in Christchurch Friday but the CJC are irrigating?????

Great for someone who's horses hate wet tracks and who has been waiting patiently for a dry one

whats your thought now

[curious]

I don't have the data that Mardi has, but I do have a few years of 21st century data and as far as I can see, generally speaking, horses at Riccarton on Saturday ran times consistent with their expected times on a Good 3 as I previously suggested. If you have contrary data Reefton, please post it.

[Freda]

7 hours ago, curious said:

Didn't see any races but the mdns ran 1.10 in the first and the R65 and open sprinters 1.09.5? Is that not consistent with a G3? Mardi may be able to assist with a relative performance indicator of the track condition that the times were consistent with?

If you ever walked up the straight at Riccarton prior to the so called renovation, you could hardly miss the undulations that were there and DID need fixing.

And yes, they removed mountains of topsoil in the process and laid a clay base. My memory's a bit hazy but I'm sure Freda can confirm or otherwise.

Yep, they sure did.

A good friend worked for Fulton Hogan at the time of the reconstruction, and asked me why Laing's Contractors were using clay from their stockpile for the track.

He couldn't understand why clay would go on a racetrack....neither could we.

As I stated earlier,  Duncan Laing told me they worked from the specs given them by the RIB.

 

 

[Freda]

A Strathayr would be just great, to follow on from all this palaver.

[Reefton]

2.02 for 2000 commonplace at Reefton.  A track of 1140m for God's sake! And they can't do it at Riccarton?  I've said it before and I'll say it again they need to get people like the O'Malleys - farmers who know how to prepare ground.  A person who would know tells me Waverley is as good as if not the best track surface in NZ and he attributed that to Colin (?) Cromarty (?) who is apparently another volunteer who knows what he is doing.

Mind you at Reefton we make a point of accuracy in our penetrometer readings of course. We haven't had anyone tell us their horse wouldn't stretch out because it was not comfortable in the conditions. (In fact that is the first time I have ever heard that excuse ever on a good 3 barring where they were not firm trackers). No wonder the game is rooted! 

I better get onto the cops about this race fixing going on!

[mardigras]

1 minute ago, Reefton said:

2.02 for 2000 commonplace at Reefton.  A track of 1140m for God's sake! And they can't do it at Riccarton? 

FFS, are you Thomass? That statement is what I would expect from him.

[Dark Beau]

Brian, if 2:02 is commonplace at Reefton for 2000m you need to get the place surveyed again!

[Shad]

1 hour ago, mardigras said:

As for 2:02 across tracks. tracks are all different. Flemington runs a reasonable number under 2:02. Albury is a fast track over 2000m and Caulfield is pretty quick also. Te Rapa would be NZ's fastest track generally over 2000m in my opinion (excluding Thames which runs on some hard tracks and goes reasonably quick times)

Been to reefton a couple of times when they have gone 2.02 and change, now's that's up there with the best.

[mardigras]

1 minute ago, Dark Beau said:

Brian, if 2:02 is commonplace at Reefton for 2000m you need to get the place surveyed again!

I have 6 horses run that there. 4 of them this year on the 16th Jan.

Didn't seem to do that in this race though. Must have been a wrong reading.

 

Stake:	$8,000	Track:	GOOD3	Weather:	OVERCAST

#	Name	Jockey/Driver/Trainer	Win	Place
3	Night Life	David Walsh	5.80	2.30
2	Dear John	Agustina Comignaghi (a3)		2.40
5	Lido Shuffle	Jillian Morris (a1)		3.20

Bet Type	Runners	Dividend
Quinella	2, 3	16.10
Trifecta	3:2:5	215.10
First4	3:2:5:12	566.40

ALSO RAN:
12-Tilburg-Shankar Muniandy (a1)(3.9L),
6-Mr Zhou-Jamie Bullard(4.5L),
8-Kahlua-Ashlee Mundy(6.9L),
7-Roodyvoo-Daniel Stackhouse (a1)(7.8L),
9-Fascaad-Kylie Williams(10L),
10-The Star Gazer-Brittany Moore (a3)(11.5L),
4-Tommy Rulz-Terry Moseley(14.1L).

Note: Numbers shown are the distance from winner in lengths.

Winning Margins: 2-1/2L, Nk, 1L
Owners: Mrs J A Glazebrook & Mrs J M F Gould
Trainer: Michael Pitman, Yaldhurst, Riccarton
Breeding: 8 g Danasinga (AUS)-Night And Day

Scratched: 1-Lotus, 11-Selenus, 13-Keepitinthefamily.
LATE Scratchings: 13-Keepitinthefamily.

SUB: 7
Winners Time: 2:05.40

[mardigras]

2 minutes ago, Shad said:

Been to reefton a couple of times when they have gone 2.02 and change, now's that's up there with the best.

Each track is different. Many horses will break 55 seconds for 1000m at Epsom without raising a sweat.

[Reefton]

12 minutes ago, Dark Beau said:

Brian, if 2:02 is commonplace at Reefton for 2000m you need to get the place surveyed again!

I've been at them about it for years but they insist the distance is accurate.  To be fair I'm dubious because they have also gone 56 for 1020m and Black Caviar was flat doing that dead straight at Flemington.

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by Reefton

[mardigras]

3 minutes ago, Reefton said:

I've been at them about it for years but they insist the distance is accurate.  To be fair I'm dubious because they have also gone 56 for 1020m and Black Caviar was flat doing that dead straight at Flemington.

 

Can you point me to a race where they've run 56 for 1020m at Reefton. Thanks. 

[Reefton]

9 minutes ago, mardigras said:

I have 6 horses run that there. 4 of them this year on the 16th Jan.

Didn't seem to do that in this race though. Must have been a wrong reading.

 

Stake:	$8,000	Track:	GOOD3	Weather:	OVERCAST

#	Name	Jockey/Driver/Trainer	Win	Place
3	Night Life	David Walsh	5.80	2.30
2	Dear John	Agustina Comignaghi (a3)		2.40
5	Lido Shuffle	Jillian Morris (a1)		3.20

Bet Type	Runners	Dividend
Quinella	2, 3	16.10
Trifecta	3:2:5	215.10
First4	3:2:5:12	566.40

ALSO RAN:
12-Tilburg-Shankar Muniandy (a1)(3.9L),
6-Mr Zhou-Jamie Bullard(4.5L),
8-Kahlua-Ashlee Mundy(6.9L),
7-Roodyvoo-Daniel Stackhouse (a1)(7.8L),
9-Fascaad-Kylie Williams(10L),
10-The Star Gazer-Brittany Moore (a3)(11.5L),
4-Tommy Rulz-Terry Moseley(14.1L).

Note: Numbers shown are the distance from winner in lengths.

Winning Margins: 2-1/2L, Nk, 1L
Owners: Mrs J A Glazebrook & Mrs J M F Gould
Trainer: Michael Pitman, Yaldhurst, Riccarton
Breeding: 8 g Danasinga (AUS)-Night And Day

Scratched: 1-Lotus, 11-Selenus, 13-Keepitinthefamily.
LATE Scratchings: 13-Keepitinthefamily.

SUB: 7
Winners Time: 2:05.40

That exception doesn't prove the rule.  D Walsh probably went to the front walked the first round and kicked away.  How long ago was that?

[mardigras]

Just now, Reefton said:

That exception doesn't prove the rule.  D Walsh probably went to the front walked the first round and kicked away.  How long ago was that?

You tried to use the 'exception' of 2:05 yesterday to prove your 'rule' Only difference is yesterday across the day, they ran at the level of  G3. 

[Reefton]

1 minute ago, mardigras said:

Can you point me to a race where they've run 56 for 1020m at Reefton. Thanks. 

Quality Street (I think) about seven or eight years ago. Kelly burne trained it