National Weanling Sale- Success or a flop??

[Brodie]

Just had a look st the sales results for Woodlands Stud, the biggest vendor,I believe?

Looking at the sales figures, you would have to question why they bother surely?

There were 48 sold and of those 29 sold for less than $10k!

The majority of those were 3 or 4k!

Yes some did sell for up to $50k but there were only a few that actually wouldve returned a profit.

Yes I appreciate that they probably stand the sire there so buggerall cost but there are all the other expenses in the rearing of them and sales costs etc.

On a commercial basis there own breeding to sell weanlings was generally a total flop!!

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Brodie

[Richie]

Woodlands said it was a great success.It costs very little to get a weanling to that stage and they were rapt with the average.The costs for them have been minimal and the profits good.

[Special Agent]

One thing is they have sold at market value with no inflated running ups.

[Brodie]

7 hours ago, Richie said:

Woodlands said it was a great success.It costs very little to get a weanling to that stage and they were rapt with the average.The costs for them have been minimal and the profits good.

They had 19 or 20 weanlings that sold for $4k or less and they say it was a great success??

How on earth can selling a weanling for 3k be successful???????

Sales costs, rearing costs etc and you are down the gurgler big time!

Alabar had 13 sell for $4k or less!

How can that be a successful sale, seriously?

Edited June 5, 2023 by Brodie

[Brodie]

Bruce negus obviously thought they were good value as he purchased 7 weanlings for,an outlay of 22,500 so averaged not much over $3k per horse!

Woodlands need to be more selective in the future as to what they breed for this sale, surely

Edited June 5, 2023 by Brodie

[Special Agent]

By the time you foaled it, weaned it, taught it to lead and tie up, rugged it, branded it, did it's feet, wormed it, floated it etc you might as well have taken a few thousand and donated to a charity.

[Spatchcock]

Brodie you never cease to amaze me with your short-sightedness (lets not forget your ongoing head-in-sand views on whip restrictions).

Woodlands breed well over 100 foals per year. Part of this, by their own admission, is doing their part for the industry to help get foals on the ground. In some cases they are selling for less than the advertised service fees. But when you own the stallion or have free service entitlements, that is not applicable. 

Also pays to remember than with, say, 120 foals on the ground, only so many can go through to the yearling sale. 
The bottom half, mostly by pedigree, but also some on type, get put through the weanling sales. 

Other key reasons for this are as follows 1) get new sire stock in to stables 2) give industry players with lesser budgets the chance to buy horses at more realistic prices 3) Get some cash coming in during the winter months. A big stud with lots of stuff has plenty of outgoings. 4) Reduce the workload of staff who have just weaned 100+ foals and now have to prepare them for the yearlings sales. Just not practical to prepare 80-100.

 

[Brodie]

11 hours ago, Spatchcock said:

Brodie you never cease to amaze me with your short-sightedness (lets not forget your ongoing head-in-sand views on whip restrictions).

Woodlands breed well over 100 foals per year. Part of this, by their own admission, is doing their part for the industry to help get foals on the ground. In some cases they are selling for less than the advertised service fees. But when you own the stallion or have free service entitlements, that is not applicable. 

Also pays to remember than with, say, 120 foals on the ground, only so many can go through to the yearling sale. 
The bottom half, mostly by pedigree, but also some on type, get put through the weanling sales. 

Other key reasons for this are as follows 1) get new sire stock in to stables 2) give industry players with lesser budgets the chance to buy horses at more realistic prices 3) Get some cash coming in during the winter months. A big stud with lots of stuff has plenty of outgoings. 4) Reduce the workload of staff who have just weaned 100+ foals and now have to prepare them for the yearlings sales. Just not practical to prepare 80-100.

 

Spatchcock, You clearly have ties to Woodlands .

So what you are saying is that Woodlands are prepared to breed and sell horses knowing that they are going to lose money on them?

Maybe a far better idea would be for them to drop the Service Fees on their stallions so that there could be more foals on the ground?

Breeding horses to sell nowadays is a hell of a risk I appreciate and if they are prepared  to breed them to lose money, it is telling us something about the state of the industry currently!

To sell horses for $2,500, basically a months training costs, seems like there is a major problem here??

Spatchcock, would you consider it to be a successful sale for Woodlands when close to half of their horses are sold for $4k or less???

 

[paleface adios]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

Spatchcock, You clearly have ties to Woodlands .

So what you are saying is that Woodlands are prepared to breed and sell horses knowing that they are going to lose money on them?

Maybe a far better idea would be for them to drop the Service Fees on their stallions so that there could be more foals on the ground?

Breeding horses to sell nowadays is a hell of a risk I appreciate and if they are prepared  to breed them to lose money, it is telling us something about the state of the industry currently!

To sell horses for $2,500, basically a months training costs, seems like there is a major problem here??

Spatchcock, would you consider it to be a successful sale for Woodlands when close to half of their horses are sold for $4k or less???

 

wouldn't they be culling there rubbish out . leaving there group1 winners for the yearling sales? bargains to be had for Brucie  might be the next courage under fire to be had

[Gammalite]

4 hours ago, Brodie said:

Breeding horses to sell nowadays is a hell of a risk I appreciate and if they are prepared  to breed them to lose money, it is telling us something about the state of the industry currently!

Mate you have been waxing lyrical for years about the state of the industry and what is best for it. Often finding the costs are major worry to yourself. Only 15 % of horses racing return a career profit mate. It's a sport and recreation for most of the participants. They Expect for it to cost them something. they are racing for Enjoyment.

Breeders always take risks. as in only 15% of what they breed will return a profit in most cases. 

Well done to Woodlands for supplying great horses (at great prices) to the community to keep the game going . excellent stuff . Game would cease to exist without them. 

Here's a beauty Woodlands bred horse in next Saturday night at Albion . A real goer tip for you ! !!   a fast like him only won about 50k in Nz over his first year and half racing there. poultry money from 15 dd starts there. A loss I would say . McCarthy is doing well with it , hopefully for Nz owners but not sure. Here's a nice pic of him . 2nd in Qld Derby last year to Leap Of Fame (also in this Saturday) whose owner has bred a thousand horses to Finally get his best one yet. 

[Brodie]

3 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Mate you have been waxing lyrical for years about the state of the industry and what is best for it. Often finding the costs are major worry to yourself. Only 15 % of horses racing return a career profit mate. It's a sport and recreation for most of the participants. They Expect for it to cost them something. they are racing for Enjoyment.

Breeders always take risks. as in only 15% of what they breed will return a profit in most cases. 

Well done to Woodlands for supplying great horses (at great prices) to the community to keep the game going . excellent stuff . Game would cease to exist without them. 

Here's a beauty Woodlands bred horse in next Saturday night at Albion . A real goer tip for you ! !!   a fast like him only won about 50k in Nz over his first year and half racing there. poultry money from 15 dd starts there. A loss I would say . McCarthy is doing well with it , hopefully for Nz owners but not sure. Here's a nice pic of him . 2nd in Qld Derby last year to Leap Of Fame (also in this Saturday) whose owner has bred a thousand horses to Finally get his best one yet. 

Gammalite, of course you are correct in that you have to be pretty fortunate if your horses can cover costs from racing!

Yes it is good that Woodlands have provided some cheap weanlings to buyers so they can see if they are any good!

The point I was trying to make is how on earth is selling 2/5 of your horses for $4k or less a great success?????

Woodlands would produce well bred stock and yet there was so little interest from buyers for half of them?

The average price was not a true reflection of how they sold !

[Robalan]

By selling horses for less than their service fee Woodlands and Alabar are giving the finger to all the breeders who paid the full fee before they even got a foal. By doing this they are competing against their own customers. It's no wonder that breeding numbers are falling so rapidly each year.

THE SERVICE FEES ARE WAY TOO EXPENSIVE

[Gammalite]

6 hours ago, Robalan said:

By selling horses for less than their service fee Woodlands and Alabar are giving the finger to all the breeders who paid the full fee before they even got a foal. By doing this they are competing against their own customers. It's no wonder that breeding numbers are falling so rapidly each year.

THE SERVICE FEES ARE WAY TOO EXPENSIVE

Don't think so . Two completely different services. You make a conscious decision to take 'your own mare' to a stud stallion to get the best result you think you can get from bloodlines. you might pay a lot more for that service than making a purchase at the/a dispersal sale . 

The sale helps promote the product in a more affordable manner for some people that want to RACE a horse.  The one's that don't want the risk's and drama that go with breeding. 

The breeders are trying to BREED a good horse . Either to sell like Woodlands did/do or just have a bit of fun .

So can't see the Studs doing any harm to Breeders at all. They're bringing in (and standing) the good stallions. Breeders pay for that service being available,  as per always.  

[Chief Stipe]

29 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

The sale helps promote the product in a more affordable manner for some people that want to RACE a horse.  The one's that don't want the risk's and drama that go with breeding. 

It also can help promote a Studs Stallions.  All the Studs do it i.e. have their own band of broodmares.  The top Thoroughbred Studs do it.

Gets a Stallions progeny on the track quicker rather than relying on fickle breeders.  The Stud then hopes that they get winners which attracts breeders to their product.

At the end of the day it is another form of marketing and is equally tax deductible.

[Brodie]

38 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

It also can help promote a Studs Stallions.  All the Studs do it i.e. have their own band of broodmares.  The top Thoroughbred Studs do it.

Gets a Stallions progeny on the track quicker rather than relying on fickle breeders.  The Stud then hopes that they get winners which attracts breeders to their product.

At the end of the day it is another form of marketing and is equally tax deductible.

Chief, not too sure that selling weanlings for less than half of the stallions Service Fee is doing a lot for the industry at all!

When you need to quit a weanling for $2k for the sake of promoting a stallion, I personally  believe it is actually detrimental for both harness racing and the breeding industry.

When breeders realise that progeny are being sold off for less than a stallions service fee, they are going to steer clear of that stallion surely?

Woodlands stand many stallions in NZ and good on them for trying to get foals on the ground, but to state that the sale was successful is quite delusional!

[Chief Stipe]

17 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Chief, not too sure that selling weanlings for less than half of the stallions Service Fee is doing a lot for the industry at all!

When you need to quit a weanling for $2k for the sake of promoting a stallion, I personally  believe it is actually detrimental for both harness racing and the breeding industry.

When breeders realise that progeny are being sold off for less than a stallions service fee, they are going to steer clear of that stallion surely?

Woodlands stand many stallions in NZ and good on them for trying to get foals on the ground, but to state that the sale was successful is quite delusional!

What's the alternative?  Woodlands have empty mares and their stallions have no progeny on the track?  That doesn't make sense does it?

Not to mention no product for punters to wager on.

[Gammalite]

17 minutes ago, Brodie said:

When breeders realise that progeny are being sold off for less than a stallions service fee, they are going to steer clear of that stallion surely?

When you're gunna breed a horse , you have a pecking order . and the order is Very very narrow in harness racing. Only about 10 stallions to consider. all the American bred boys are proven.

The standing Fee price is what you pay for the best. Think Bettor's Delight about $25,000 now ? but not sure.

(Think Lazarus is in Aus at around $8000 . reckon i'd try that.) 

whats Vincent at Alabar's Fee ?? $5000 ? might be worth a look.

Or you'd go Captain Treacherous , Always B Miki, Sweet Lou, etc. etc..blah . blah ..... down the order to you get to your price.. 

 

 

[Special Agent]

10 hours ago, Brodie said:

Chief, not too sure that selling weanlings for less than half of the stallions Service Fee is doing a lot for the industry at all!

When you need to quit a weanling for $2k for the sake of promoting a stallion, I personally  believe it is actually detrimental for both harness racing and the breeding industry.

I agree with Brodie on this.

I think it is poor form for a commercial stud to quit the young stock at bargain prices at an international auction when the stallion has a stud fee many times that value.  That must surely prove the advertised stud fee is inflated for whatever financial reason.  We are not talking about a hobby breeder but, the integrity of one of the industry leaders.

Good luck to the successful purchasers as they may have found some amazing bargains.

As a show of good faith you would like to think the stud reassesses the upcoming stud fee as the market has spoken, and offer a free service to any breeder who has paid the advertised fee.

[paleface adios]

13 hours ago, Gammalite said:

down the order to you get to your price.. 

 

 

THE BRODSTER IS MORE OF A FLASHING RED SORT OF GUY 

[Gammalite]

42 minutes ago, paleface adios said:

THE BRODSTER IS MORE OF A FLASHING RED SORT OF GUY 

What a star that bloke was. They still run the 'Flashing Red' race here in QLD in his honour. His nz trainer Tim Butt now here too in Brisvegas (and going pretty average really... only seems to hae mid-week runners)

Flashing Red from Tas originally then a kiwi and QLDer , so takes right after myself in lucky breaks in life, and returned to Tas to win heats of the Interdominion in 2006. (final worth $900k won by fellow QLD champ Blacks A Fake) it was a real thrill to be there. 

Here is the great Flashing Red in the capable hands of the gun Anthony Butt, taking one of his Nz Cup victories !!!

What a fricken absolute legend of a horse 🏆.

 

[Robalan]

Gammalite, the fact that most weanlings sold at the National weanling sale sold for less than their service fee proves THAT SERVICE FEES ARE TOO EXPENSIVE. The rapid reduction in the total number of mares being bred from also proves that very few individuals or syndicates are breeding horses to race

This is because SERVICE FEES ARE WAY TOO EXPENSIVE. Also, racing costs are too high compared to the potential return from rapidly diminishing stakes.

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Robalan said:

Gammalite, the fact that most weanlings sold at the National weanling sale sold for less than their service fee proves THAT SERVICE FEES ARE TOO EXPENSIVE. The rapid reduction in the total number of mares being bred from also proves that very few individuals or syndicates are breeding horses to race

This is because SERVICE FEES ARE WAY TOO EXPENSIVE. Also, racing costs are too high compared to the potential return from rapidly diminishing stakes.

I agree.

When you talk to people who breed to race and train them or who use trainers other than the top 3 or 4 stables,in other words those that focus not on the monetary side but the enjoyment side of racing,they will tell you for them the costs of the stud fees,vet fees and grazing associated with breeding  and the subsequent costs to get a horse that may not race until it was 4,is not worth the effort when you factor in how they perceive the type of horse they have is not treated as well as others in the handicapping system. 

The handicapping system rewards the owners/breeders/trainers who race and win with their 2 and 3 year olds,and with the junior driver concessions. In other words it clearly incentivises,through concessions, people to push their horses early.

So the irony is,on one hand HRNZ are trying to promote breeding by have some sort of rebate system for breeders,while on the other hand operating a handicapping system that incentivises people to have there horses prepared in a way that focuses on short term goals,and if those short term goals aren't met,then the product(horse) is cast aside.

So breeders who used to focus most on enjoyment and longevity,and supplied the industry with  type of horse,now look at the cost and decide its unrealistic.

[Gammalite]

5 hours ago, Robalan said:

Gammalite, the fact that most weanlings sold at the National weanling sale sold for less than their service fee proves THAT SERVICE FEES ARE TOO EXPENSIVE. The rapid reduction in the total number of mares being bred from also proves that very few individuals or syndicates are breeding horses to race

They tried it once. Dave Jessop brought in Vance Hanover and stood him at $500 or $1000 or something like that , and the landscape was flooded with Vance Hanover's . 500 per season for 2 or 3 years . Artificial Insemination was used . but didn't work. sure Christopher Vance turned up and Our Sir Vancelot amongst others, but so did heaps and heaps of battlers not paying their way and it just belittled the product . 

Better to do your homework and breed your mare to the best cross you can find.

As I said there's a pecking order. Bettor's Delight  leads the way with Lazarus his prize foal (out of a Christian Cullen mare ) so a golden cross right there. These are some of the best sires and racehorses the Planet has Ever seen. Of course you should have to Pay something to be part of the elite.

Bound to be some stallions up the road there in Canterbury standing for $1000?. go to them if you don't want to Pay for the best lol.

Captain Treacherous at $20,000 looks the go to me at Cobbity farms . great value. fabulous stock.

Lucky you guys don't look at the thoroughbred service fees or you'd die of Heart attacks lol......😂😂

(think a thoroughbred stallion like e.g 'I Am Invincible' is about $1/4 million service fee these days)  

[Brodie]

Service fees in NZ for stallions whether it be standardbred or thoroughbred are generally ridiculous for what it is!

A bit of semen!

If Bettors Delight, Captain Treacherous etc. were cheaper there would be more mares bred from and therefore more foals on the ground!

It just makes very little sense financially to breed horses as it is just a lottery  as to what you get.

Far easier to buy a horse that shows ability so not such a gamble.

 

[paleface adios]

13 minutes ago, Brodie said:

 

If Bettors Delight, Captain Treacherous etc. were cheaper there would be more mares 

 

answer is no to that . selected mares only and you can add TALL DARK STRANGER TO THAT LIST . so why would they be cheaper when they are the best stallions in the world?