National Weanling Sale- Success or a flop??

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

They tried it once. Dave Jessop brought in Vance Hanover and stood him at $500 or $1000 or something like that , and the landscape was flooded with Vance Hanover's . 500 per season for 2 or 3 years . Artificial Insemination was used . but didn't work. sure Christopher Vance turned up and Our Sir Vancelot amongst others, but so did heaps and heaps of battlers not paying their way and it just belittled the product . 

Better to do your homework and breed your mare to the best cross you can find.

As I said there's a pecking order. Bettor's Delight  leads the way with Lazarus his prize foal (out of a Christian Cullen mare ) so a golden cross right there. These are some of the best sires and racehorses the Planet has Ever seen. Of course you should have to Pay something to be part of the elite.

Bound to be some stallions up the road there in Canterbury standing for $1000?. go to them if you don't want to Pay for the best lol.

Captain Treacherous at $20,000 looks the go to me at Cobbity farms . great value. fabulous stock.

Lucky you guys don't look at the thoroughbred service fees or you'd die of Heart attacks lol......😂😂

(think a thoroughbred stallion like e.g 'I Am Invincible' is about $1/4 million service fee these days)  

There you have identified why there are not many left breeding horses anymore.

Spend $20,000  to get progeny of what is perceived as a great value sire,captain treacherous. 

I don't know too many trainers/breeders,but the people i know still involved in the game don't have $20,000 to breed a horse. Its fantasy to think the average person who still potters around with a horse will spend that much.

Lazarus hasn't many foals which has lead to some speculation as to why  he has had  fertility issues. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, the galah said:

There you have identified why there are not many left breeding horses anymore.

Spend $20,000  to get progeny of what is perceived as a great value sire,captain treacherous. 

I don't know too many trainers/breeders,but the people i know still involved in the game don't have $20,000 to breed a horse. Its fantasy to think the average person who still potters around with a horse will spend that much.

Lazarus hasn't many foals which has lead to some speculation as to why  he has had  fertility issues. 

Did you consider that if someone had a broodmare that was worth sending to Captain Treacherous that they couldn't do a deal with the Stud?

The list price isn't necessarily the service sell price.  Afterall horse traders are horse traders.

[Chief Stipe]

Breeders aren't breeding horses at the moment for many reasons.  The biggest of which is the state of the economy.  There isn't a lot a spare cash around unless you get a handout of printed money from this Labour Government.

[the galah]

40 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Did you consider that if someone had a broodmare that was worth sending to Captain Treacherous that the couldn't do a deal with the Stud?

The list price isn't necessarily the service sell price.  Afterall horse traders are horse traders.

Maybe your right about that. I can only go bu what those i see tell me. and that is the cost of breeding is no longer affordable for them. 

 

36 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Breeders aren't breeding horses at the moment for many reasons.  The biggest of which is the state of the economy.  There isn't a lot a spare cash around unless you get a handout of printed money from this Labour Government.

Thats a factor.Studs don't factor that in when setting their fees. For the good of the industry they should,but most of the stallions owned overseas anyway aren't they?So why would overseas stallion owners  care much if their prices are leading to less numbers being bred?l

Edited June 11, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

39 minutes ago, the galah said:

Thats a factor.Studs don't factor that in when setting their fees. For the good of the industry they should,but most of the stallions owned overseas anyway aren't they?So why would overseas stallion owners  care much if their prices are leading to less numbers being bred?l

Why should they do anything "for the good of the industry"?  They're a business not a charity.  That said they do sponsor races and indirectly promote the industry.

But at the end of the day the market determines the service fee and how many horses are bred.

They will adjust relative to the market and the economic situation.  There are a lot of industries in the same boat at the moment and you can lay the blame for that fairly and squarely on the worst Government we have seen in this country.  Thanks Winston.

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Why should they do anything "for the good of the industry"?  They're a business not a charity.  That said they do sponsor races and indirectly promote the industry.

But at the end of the day the market determines the service fee and how many horses are bred.

 

That seems to be the approach they take. Basing their service fee on the returns they wish to receive and as gammalite and paleface have pointed out,factoring in not wishing to possibly devalue the brand. In other words,keep the service fee at a level which discourages those with supposedly less credentialed mares to consider it viable to breed to them.

Gammalite actually highlighted what nz harness desperately need,but don't have.

That is an owner/studmaster, of a top line stallion willing to consider the good of the industry as much as they do their own interests.

One of the best examples was mentioned by gammalite when he referred to Vance hanover. His owner,dave jessop factored in his belief that all owners of a standardbred mare should have the opportunity to breed to the leading nz harness sire at an affordable fee. Vance hanover was leading sire 10 times.

Just imagine if that were to happen today. Rival stud fees would be reduced so as to compete,and the numbers  being bred would increase big time.

If you want an example of whether there are broodmare owners out there wanting to breed to a stallion, but  doing so only if they consider the service fee affordable and reasonable, then just look at the response Royal Aspirations received last year. Now you can't tell me those who bred to him are expecting top liners,maybe hope but not expect. But they think they are giving themselves a chance to possibly breed a nice horse who they could have a lot of fun with. Last year he got 107 mares and his service fee was at a realistic and affordable $2500,with some discounts and the hrnz rebate.

So,possible solutions are there to increase foal numbers,but while stallion owners factor in only their own interests,then the numbers bred will continue to decline and the whole industry,including the owners of the better mares and stallions will ultimately pay a price for such short sightedness.

Edited June 11, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

35 minutes ago, the galah said:

One of the best examples was mentioned by gammalite when he referred to Vance hanover. His owner,dave jessop factored in his belief that all owners of a standardbred mare should have the opportunity to breed to the leading nz harness sire at an affordable fee. Vance hanover was leading sire 10 times.

Just imagine if that were to happen today. Rival stud fees would be reduced so as to compete,and the numbers  being bred would increase big time.

But that didn't happen did it when Vance Hanovers fees were low.  Vance Hanover got over 400 mares those first years.  Basically it was an opening special to get foals on the ground and horses to the track.  Once he started having performers his stud fee rapidly went up.  Not that $500 in the early eighties wasn't an insignificant amount of dosh.

[Chief Stipe]

39 minutes ago, the galah said:

So,possible solutions are there to increase foal numbers,but while stallion owners factor in only their own interests,then the numbers bred will continue to decline and the whole industry,including the owners of the better mares and stallions will ultimately pay a price for such short sightedness.

Lowering stud fees isn't going to increase numbers significantly.  

The Stud fee nowadays is the cheapest part of racing a horse.

[Gammalite]

3 hours ago, the galah said:

Spend $20,000  to get progeny of what is perceived as a great value sire,captain treacherous. 

I don't know too many trainers/breeders,but the people i know still involved in the game don't have $20,000 to breed a horse. Its fantasy to think the average person who still potters around with a horse will spend that much

Well if you want to win the feature races you would have to go to the expensive stallions to get the 'Speed' needed to compete at the top level. They go like scolded Cats these days.

A couple of breeders in my neck of the woods would of spent tens of thousands breeding em' and racing em'. It's what they like to do . Only a small fraction of horses that race , return a 'Career' profit. Seymour and Shannon.

Exactly like Chief says 'The State of the Economy' is the bigger reason harness racing is dying. It's just not a cheap hobby anymore. 

Kevin Seymour (developer) has finally bred his best LEAP TO FAME , but it took a thousand tries . He actually imported Mr Feelgood , and won the Interdominion with it (surpriseingly beating Blacks A Fake at Gold Coast lol)  before standing him at stud . he has spent millions I would say.

The new CEO of your new betting conglomerate bred horses for years .Dean Shannon with Montana stud here. Now prefers to just by the yearlings at your NZ sales past couple of years . Merlin , etc, and put them with Barry Purdon . A dozen or so horses. He likes Always B Miki fillies too. 

Because your yearling prices have dropped that much. Much easier to pick one of those up than breed a horse ? added advantage being,  is you can see the nice type right in front of you before you buy.

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Lowering stud fees isn't going to increase numbers significantly.  

The Stud fee nowadays is the cheapest part of racing a horse.

I believe it would. Doesn't the Royal Aspirations example show that.

You have to remember there used to be a lot of breeders who also had a licence to train or had a family member who did, and the cost of the service fee and costs associated with breeding was viewed as the most significant cost in the horses early life/career.

Then you had those that bred and were happy to have a 50/50 deal with a trainer where they supplied the horse and the trainer trained it for the 50% share.

Then you had those who bred with the intent of leasing there horses out to other connections.

etc,etc.

 

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Well if you want to win the feature races you would have to go to the expensive stallions to get the 'Speed' needed to compete at the top level. They go like scolded Cats these days.

A couple of breeders in my neck of the woods would of spent tens of thousands breeding em' and racing em'. It's what they like to do . Only a small fraction of horses that race , return a 'Career' profit. Seymour and Shannon.

Exactly like Chief says 'The State of the Economy' is the bigger reason harness racing is dying. It's just not a cheap hobby anymore. 

Kevin Seymour (developer) has finally bred his best LEAP TO FAME , but it took a thousand tries . He actually imported Mr Feelgood , and won the Interdominion with it (surpriseingly beating Blacks A Fake at Gold Coast lol)  before standing him at stud . he has spent millions I would say.

The new CEO of your new betting conglomerate bred horses for years .Dean Shannon with Montana stud here. Now prefers to just by the yearlings at your NZ sales past couple of years . Merlin , etc, and put them with Barry Purdon . A dozen or so horses. He likes Always B Miki fillies too. 

Because your yearling prices have dropped that much. Much easier to pick one of those up than breed a horse ? added advantage being,  is you can see the nice type right in front of you before you buy.

Yes there are many reasons racing is declining. Its not a cheap hobby as you point out.

But each aspect of the industries decline has to be analysed. The breeding aspect for many is  influenced by that initial service fee/stud fees cost. Just accepting things as they are will not change the direction in breeding numbers. Reduced breeding fees will,but it would have to be a significant reduction to make an impact.   Do i think it will happen . Well no. reality is you either continue the status quo and continue seeing a decline,or you think outside the box.

Besides,having 150 mares bred at  $5000 would generate the same income for stallion owners as having 100 bred at $7,500. Same could apply to the studs.

[Special Agent]

4 hours ago, the galah said:

One of the best examples was mentioned by gammalite when he referred to Vance hanover. His owner,dave jessop factored in his belief that all owners of a standardbred mare should have the opportunity to breed to the leading nz harness sire at an affordable fee. Vance hanover was leading sire 10 times.

Just imagine if that were to happen today. Rival stud fees would be reduced so as to compete,and the numbers  being bred would increase big time.

In order to get foals on the ground Sam Williams of Little Avondale Stud stood galloping sire ZED in his initial season for just $500.  Broodmare owners booked mares into Zed which hadn't been to stud in seasons as the stud fees were prohibitive.  He served 131 mares with his first crop producing amongst others New Zealand Cup winner Jimmy Mac.

All those winners later, including VERRY ELLEEGANT, Zed still only stands at $6,000.

I remember when Dave Jessop did that with Vance Hanover.  It was definitely outside the box thinking, as was the Zed concept.  With so few foals on the ground and even those numbers declining each season we need another Dave Jessop or Sam Williams to offer a carrot to the "on the fence" breeders so mares are not left in the paddock empty.

Then the next step is important to make sure the resultant progeny are tried.

[Chief Stipe]

7 hours ago, Special Agent said:

In order to get foals on the ground Sam Williams of Little Avondale Stud stood galloping sire ZED in his initial season for just $500.  Broodmare owners booked mares into Zed which hadn't been to stud in seasons as the stud fees were prohibitive.  He served 131 mares with his first crop producing amongst others New Zealand Cup winner Jimmy Mac.

All those winners later, including VERRY ELLEEGANT, Zed still only stands at $6,000.

I remember when Dave Jessop did that with Vance Hanover.  It was definitely outside the box thinking, as was the Zed concept.  With so few foals on the ground and even those numbers declining each season we need another Dave Jessop or Sam Williams to offer a carrot to the "on the fence" breeders so mares are not left in the paddock empty.

Then the next step is important to make sure the resultant progeny are tried.

 Your recollection of the ZED "story" is incorrect. 

However rather than debate his story and the Vance Hanover "story" shouldn't the debate not focus on stud fees but why there is declining interest in breeding OR buying an standardbred.

If lowering stud fees was the solution why wasnt there more competition for buying a weanling at the recent sale?  You could have purchased a live weanling ready to take home to the paddocks beside your supposedly barren mares for substantially lower cost than breeding them.

[Chief Stipe]

9 hours ago, the galah said:

But each aspect of the industries decline has to be analysed. The breeding aspect for many is  influenced by that initial service fee/stud fees cost

Then just buy a cheap weanling at a substantial service fee discount.

The Studs are an easy target.  It happens in the Thoroughbred industry as well yet they are the individuals that have invested heavily and take more risks than many in the industry.

Meanwhile industry administration anf RIB costs keep rising.  Stakes are falling, infrastructure investment is non existent and don't forget the economy is a basket case.

Not to forget all the new rules and compliance costs forced onto breeders.  Nope let's just slam the Stud owners for their stallion services list price.  Forgetting that they are amongst the largest breeders in the country and are actually doing something for the industry.

I'm sure if your mare is worth breeding from @the galah they'd negotiate a discount if you asked them.

[Gammalite]

3 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Then just buy a cheap weanling at a substantial service fee discount.

Exactly ! so in that case the answer to the Brodster's question at the beginning is Yes the Sale was a success.

People participants were able to purchase youngsters at a great price at the sale 💰. and By-pass the offending Stallion Fees.

There are now some happy owners (maybe even some New enthusiasts) with a nice foal that we All hope can get to the races for them. have some more sales. excellent idea for promotion of the industry. (ask any retail store 😉 ) 

Studmasters can keep their carefully calculated Service Fees . The better quality mares (black type /blue bloods, etc ) will continue to be put to these Proven stallions and some great foals will result. Nz will continue to breed some of the world's best as per normal.

Market saturation of foals from a massive SERVICE FEE drop is Not The Answer. the quality of the product would be affected. Blood-lines would narrow. any old mare is put to the stallion . reputation could be lost. 

Why stand the world's best Stallions for less than they are valued at in today's market ? Quality makes the stallion , not quantity.  

[the galah]

 

3 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Studmasters can keep their carefully calculated Service Fees . The better quality mares (black type /blue bloods, etc ) will continue to be put to these Proven stallions and some great foals will result. Nz will continue to breed some of the world's best as per normal.

Market saturation of foals from a massive SERVICE FEE drop is Not The Answer. the quality of the product would be affected. Blood-lines would narrow. any old mare is put to the stallion . reputation could be lost. 

Why stand the world's best Stallions for less than they are valued at in today's market ? Quality makes the stallion , not quantity.  

So you appear to be saying stallion owners reducing fees would lead to greater numbers being bred,but given the quality of mares that would be bred to said stallions,the reputation of the stallion would be diminished. Is that accurate interpretation of what i have read?.

So assuming it is,doesn't that focus more on the needs of the studs than the industry? 

And given that,even if you look at it from the studs point of view,should you not ask yourself,what will impact the studs incomes the most in say 10-20 years. Their current $ bottom line or an industry that no longer has as many owners/breeders/trainers,mares,etc...the very things they will be needing to keep there stud viable in 10-20 years. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by the galah

[paleface adios]

4 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Exactly ! so in that case the answer to the Brodster's question at the beginning is Yes the Sale was a success.

People participants were able to purchase youngsters at a great price at the sale 💰. and By-pass the offending Stallion Fees.

There are now some happy owners (maybe even some New enthusiasts) with a nice foal that we All hope can get to the races for them. have some more sales. excellent idea for promotion of the industry. (ask any retail store 😉 ) 

Studmasters can keep their carefully calculated Service Fees . The better quality mares (black type /blue bloods, etc ) will continue to be put to these Proven stallions and some great foals will result. Nz will continue to breed some of the world's best as per normal.

Market saturation of foals from a massive SERVICE FEE drop is Not The Answer. the quality of the product would be affected. Blood-lines would narrow. any old mare is put to the stallion . reputation could be lost. 

Why stand the world's best Stallions for less than they are valued at in today's market ? Quality makes the stallion , not quantity.  

good mares go to good stallions bad mares go to poor stallions . is that the way it works

[the galah]

7 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Then just buy a cheap weanling at a substantial service fee discount.

The Studs are an easy target.  It happens in the Thoroughbred industry as well yet they are the individuals that have invested heavily and take more risks than many in the industry.

Meanwhile industry administration anf RIB costs keep rising.  Stakes are falling, infrastructure investment is non existent and don't forget the economy is a basket case.

Not to forget all the new rules and compliance costs forced onto breeders.  Nope let's just slam the Stud owners for their stallion services list price.  Forgetting that they are amongst the largest breeders in the country and are actually doing something for the industry.

I'm sure if your mare is worth breeding from @the galah they'd negotiate a discount if you asked them.

Well i did inquire a couple of years ago with a couple of the bigger studs and they didn't want to negotiate as you put it. They wouldn't even have known who they were talking to or what our mares are. I guess they are mostly interested in regulars.not those who used to breed but haven't recently.

And no,i would not buy a yearling/weanling from a sale,but yes if the stud fees were reduced by say 30% i probably would breed one each year. But i have an attachment to our mares. So our interest is with them. I think a lot of people see it that way. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

13 minutes ago, the galah said:

They wouldn't even have known who they were talking to or what our mares are.

So you didn't tell them the breeding of your mare?

[Chief Stipe]

14 minutes ago, the galah said:

And no,i would not buy a yearling/weanling from a sale,but yes if the stud fees were reduced by say 30% i probably would breed one each year. But i have an attachment to our mares. So our interest is with them. I think a lot of people see it that way. 

So 30% would twist your arm?  Are you going to ask your trainer for the same discount?  What business are/were you in in?  Would you give a random cutomer a 30% discount?

[Brodie]

4 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Exactly ! so in that case the answer to the Brodster's question at the beginning is Yes the Sale was a success.

People participants were able to purchase youngsters at a great price at the sale 💰. and By-pass the offending Stallion Fees.

There are now some happy owners (maybe even some New enthusiasts) with a nice foal that we All hope can get to the races for them. have some more sales. excellent idea for promotion of the industry. (ask any retail store 😉 ) 

Studmasters can keep their carefully calculated Service Fees . The better quality mares (black type /blue bloods, etc ) will continue to be put to these Proven stallions and some great foals will result. Nz will continue to breed some of the world's best as per normal.

Market saturation of foals from a massive SERVICE FEE drop is Not The Answer. the quality of the product would be affected. Blood-lines would narrow. any old mare is put to the stallion . reputation could be lost. 

Why stand the world's best Stallions for less than they are valued at in today's market ? Quality makes the stallion , not quantity.  

Gamma, what i am hearing is that people have different interpretation of SUCCESS!

So if I had a few punts and I lost money on them for the day, but it wasnt as big a loss as the week before, you are clearly saying that it was a successful day on the punt?????

The sale as a Commercial venture for Woodlands to most  business people would be that it was far from successful!

Most accountants would say it was very unsucceSsful and not to breed and sell most of the weanlings at the sale again!

If I was a shop, it was not be in my best interests whatsoever to be selling 50% of my stock for a loss which is clearly what Woodlands has done!!!

If this is what a business does, the. They would ve out of vusiness in the first year without doubt!

If I was a house builder and I was selling the builds for under cost what would happen????

Bankruptcy!!!

Edited June 12, 2023 by Brodie

[the galah]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So 30% would twist your arm?  Are you going to ask your trainer for the same discount?  What business are/were you in in?  Would you give a random cutomer a 30% discount?

From my observations over the years,long term it is better to start off(or maintain) a larger customer number base,than it is to have reducing numbers paying higher rates.

I've also seen the "thats ok that our customer numbers are shrinking because if theres less of us to provide the product,we will still earn just as much". Hindsight tends to prove that short sighted approach doesn't end well long term. And that is how i see the stud  side of things to a degree.

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, Brodie said:

The sale as a Commercial venture for Woodlands to most  business people would be that it was far from successful!

 

Brodie are you a Cost Accountant?  You have no idea what Woodlands consider to be a success or not.  The fact is they are still the dominate player in the NZ market.  You have no idea what there bottom line is nor their revenue and cost structure.  At least one proabably more of their Stallions is fully booked for the next season.  

 

[Chief Stipe]

3 minutes ago, the galah said:

From my observations over the years,long term it is better to start off(or maintain) a larger customer number base,than it is to have reducing numbers paying higher rates.

I've also seen the "thats ok that our customer numbers are shrinking because if theres less of us to provide the product,we will still earn just as much". Hindsight tends to prove that short sighted approach doesn't end well long term. And that is how i see the stud  side of things to a degree.

So you'd give random customers a 30% discount without knowing anything about them? 

[the galah]

25 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So you'd give random customers a 30% discount without knowing anything about them? 

I'm not talking about discounts.I'm talking about current realistic pricing to maintain the long term viability of the aspect of the industry you work in. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by the galah