southland junior penalty free wins

[the galah]

Why do they run so many races in southland where the winner ,if driven by a junior driver,gets a penalty free win as long as it hasn't had a free win that season.

For example,on saturday they have a r35-50 trot ,there are 3 horses who have junior drivers on.

The 2 highest rated horses will get a penalty free win should they win,which seems likely given on recent form they look the main chances in a field where realistically only 3 have winning chances.Its already a race where the rating band seems unfair on the many r35 horses,but hey for good measure lets give the r35 horses a penalty,but if either of the two r50 horses do,they won't. 

Why are the handicappers deliberately targeting preferential treatment for these horses. 

Its very,very obvious that with so many concessions and penalty free wins these days,that horses aren't progressing in the ratings to enable them to run like against like,if they use solely the horses ratings as the criteria for the fields. You are getting this big pool of horses in the 40's.

And can anyone explain why southland runs these type of races more than say canterbury.If southlands model really is the way to go,why not run them in canterbury and have even more horses stuck in the r40"s.

Edited June 20, 2023 by the galah

[Gammalite]

The solution is so easy .

Run a junior drivers race every meeting (maybe 2 ?.... maybe a pace and a trot? ) 

All winners in Every race penalised (as they should be)  to keep some classes of horses Always advancing . this is important. horses should be graded correctly on wins as Galah says above.

To lure runners..... if it's a meeting of say 10 x $9000 races being run currently. 

Immeadiately Drop it to $8000 per race , and then run the junior driver races increased to $10,000 per race.

Also give $1000 extra prizemoney if the winner is driven by a Junior driver in any 'regular' race on the card.. 

The Club puts the prize money saved each meeting in carry over jackpot for the on-course punters at their next meeting .

brilliant !!!! problems solved . everyone gets a go (junior drivers) , punters get interested,  etc ..... 

[the galah]

50 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

The solution is so easy .

Run a junior drivers race every meeting (maybe 2 ?.... maybe a pace and a trot? ) 

All winners in Every race penalised (as they should be)  to keep some classes of horses Always advancing . this is important. horses should be graded correctly on wins as Galah says above.

To lure runners..... if it's a meeting of say 10 x $9000 races being run currently. 

Immeadiately Drop it to $8000 per race , and then run the junior driver races increased to $10,000 per race.

Also give $1000 extra prizemoney if the winner is driven by a Junior driver in any 'regular' race on the card.. 

The Club puts the prize money saved each meeting in carry over jackpot for the on-course punters at their next meeting .

brilliant !!!! problems solved . everyone gets a go (junior drivers) , punters get interested,  etc ..... 

your thinking outside the square,which is what is needed.

Personally i don't understand why junior drivers are more important than someone over 30.Someone needs to point out to those who approved these extra penalty free wins,that once you hit 31 its not any easier to make a living in the industry than it was when you were 30.

It makes just as much sense to have races restricted to drivers who have not won many races that season. Same principle,so why not.

These increasing number of penalty free junior drivers races are being targeted by a small number of stables and the handicappers also seem to be programming them to suit certain stables,especially in southland. Why is that?

Good on the stables and owners concerned for using the system for their advantage,but why are they not contributing more to the junior drivers.

Surely say 10% of the stakes earned by owners should be taken and held in trust for the junior drivers who drive the horses that earn stakemoney,whether it be win or top 4. The connections of these horses are benefitting big time,so if they really are about helping the juniors as much as themselves,then why not do it that way. Hrnz could hold that money in trust and pay it out when they reach 30.

so much seems superficial about it as it currently operates in my opinion..

[Gammalite]

41 minutes ago, the galah said:

Personally i don't understand why junior drivers are more important than someone over 30.Someone needs to point out to those who approved these extra penalty free wins,that once you hit 31 its not any easier to make a living in the industry than it was when you were 30.

I think it's super important. 

Esp. For the sake of the young person. It is a Sport . And therefore a recreational occupation. You need to be an Active Participant 'With something to look forward too every week ! 😊 to make your efforts worthwhile . and get some enjoyment. There are a lot of things a person can do that make more money than work in a stable. They do it for the love of horses and participation in their stable success. 

Old blokes like us , if we owned one or punted one ,  yeah ...........you probably get better run for your money with Blair , Tim ,Mark or whatever, but gee , in the everyday races you Really really need to give the youngsters a go. 

Your priorities change around 30 years old, and all the blokes/lasses ( that got as many drives as they could in their 20's ) might be looking for a Trainer / Driver roll like Mark Jones , Gavin Smith , Bob Butt etc who all do well at that. 

I find it annoying that John Dunn (for example) , won't put his name on the Trainers ticket, when he obviously does do  a huge amount of the actual training of the countries leading stable on the table,  and then he takes 'out side' drives like he is this Friday ? . Surely he makes enough money being the NZ Leading stable ?, he doesn't need to take the drives of the youngsters to the Absolute Detriment of the sport IMO. Nat and Mark in a leading stable take very few outside drives.  

No Opponents = No horses = No youngsters = No Interest = No racing.... as a lot of areas in Nz are finding out 

 

[the galah]

10 hours ago, Gammalite said:

I think it's super important. 

Esp. For the sake of the young person. It is a Sport . And therefore a recreational occupation. You need to be an Active Participant 'With something to look forward too every week ! 😊 to make your efforts worthwhile . and get some enjoyment. There are a lot of things a person can do that make more money than work in a stable. They do it for the love of horses and participation in their stable success. 

Old blokes like us , if we owned one or punted one ,  yeah ...........you probably get better run for your money with Blair , Tim ,Mark or whatever, but gee , in the everyday races you Really really need to give the youngsters a go. 

Your priorities change around 30 years old, and all the blokes/lasses ( that got as many drives as they could in their 20's ) might be looking for a Trainer / Driver roll like Mark Jones , Gavin Smith , Bob Butt etc who all do well at that. 

I find it annoying that John Dunn (for example) , won't put his name on the Trainers ticket, when he obviously does do  a huge amount of the actual training of the countries leading stable on the table,  and then he takes 'out side' drives like he is this Friday ? . Surely he makes enough money being the NZ Leading stable ?, he doesn't need to take the drives of the youngsters to the Absolute Detriment of the sport IMO. Nat and Mark in a leading stable take very few outside drives.  

No Opponents = No horses = No youngsters = No Interest = No racing.... as a lot of areas in Nz are finding out 

 

I disagree.

In my opinion its no more important to have a junior earn income from driving fees than it is for someone over 30.

In fact i would say its more important once you reach 30 because you are more likely to be in a serious relationship and have financial commitments than you are when you are at 20. It goes without saying that there is only so many drives per race based on the number of starters. If one group is getting more income from drives,another group is having the income they use to meet financial commitments reduced.

Also,cast your mind back to the days when junior drivers did not get many opportunities and then ask yourself were there more young people in the sport then than now.

The point being the expectation that juniors seeing just a handful of other juniors getting an extra drive or two a week,will lead to increased junior participation is not a reality.

Also,lets focus on the drivers who are getting all the penalty free wins. They are the ones who with higher profiles are already  getting ample opportunities.So the need to tip the scales even further in their favour opportunity wise is totally unneccessary.

So obviously the scales are being tipped in the junior drivers favour to increase the opportunities of those at the bottom of the premiership.Well if you look at the 12 juniors at that end,in the first half of the year they have only had a total of 170 drives,an average of 14 in 6 months. And  90% of those 12,drove horses they trained or owned anyway.Also factor in that this group only other drives would have been in junior drivers races,not the penalty free if driven by a junior race,open to all drivers.

So the point is,its so obvious giving more and more penalty free wins to the horses driven by the alrready successful juniors does NOTHING for those its supposed to help most.just look at the stats.

Like i have said,theres got to be a better way than they do it now. Not only is it making a mockery of the handicapping system that already is failing,it doesn't help who its intended to.

Heres my suggestion.Implement a system that actually helps those its suppose to. Its just common sense,which to me seems lacking at the moment.

Those that are benefitting should be contributing,i.e. the owners and trainer s of the horses who are benefitting.

like i said earlier,take a mandatory 10% of any stake won by owners and trainers who receive a penalty free win and place it in a pool held by hrnz ,then at the end of each season pay an even share to all registered junior drivers. For example should sarah o'reilly win a penalty free race with an $7000 winning stake,she receives her normal driving fee,but the owner contibutes $700 to the pool for juniors and the traniner contributes 10% of his share,i.e. $70. So in reality,the 37 current juniors,would each be receiving $20 every time that O'reilly drove that penalty free winner.I'm not advocating for that,but it makes much more sense than the current system which does more harm than good.

Edited June 20, 2023 by the galah

[Special Agent]

I think what you are both pointing out is that racing has changed which requires much thought to work out ways to progress the sport.  I'm not sure harness has many thinkers at the helm.

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

I disagree.

In my opinion its no more important to have a junior earn income from driving fees than it is for someone over 30.

In fact i would say its more important once you reach 30 because you are more likely to be in a serious relationship and have financial commitments than you are when you are at 20. It goes without saying that there is only so many drives per race based on the number of starters. If one group is getting more income from drives,another group is having the income they use to meet financial commitments reduced.

Also,cast your mind back to the days when junior drivers did not get many opportunities and then ask yourself were there more young people in the sport then than now.

The point being the expectation that juniors seeing just a handful of other juniors getting an extra drive or two a week,will lead to increased junior participation is not a reality.

Also,lets focus on the drivers who are getting all the penalty free wins. They are the ones who with higher profiles are already  getting ample opportunities.So the need to tip the scales even further in their favour opportunity wise is totally unneccessary.

So obviously the scales are being tipped in the junior drivers favour to increase the opportunities of those at the bottom of the premiership.Well if you look at the 12 juniors at that end,in the first half of the year they have only had a total of 170 drives,an average of 14 in 6 months. And  90% of those 12,drove horses they trained or owned anyway.Also factor in that this group only other drives would have been in junior drivers races,not the penalty free if driven by a junior race,open to all drivers.

So the point is,its so obvious giving more and more penalty free wins to the horses driven by the alrready successful juniors does NOTHING for those its supposed to help most.just look at the stats.

Like i have said,theres got to be a better way than they do it now. Not only is it making a mockery of the handicapping system that already is failing,it doesn't help who its intended to.

Heres my suggestion.Implement a system that actually helps those its suppose to. Its just common sense,which to me seems lacking at the moment.

Those that are benefitting should be contributing,i.e. the owners and trainer s of the horses who are benefitting.

like i said earlier,take a mandatory 10% of any stake won by owners and trainers who receive a penalty free win and place it in a pool held by hrnz ,then at the end of each season pay an even share to all registered junior drivers. For example should sarah o'reilly win a penalty free race with an $7000 winning stake,she receives her normal driving fee,but the owner contibutes $700 to the pool for juniors and the traniner contributes 10% of his share,i.e. $70. So in reality,the 37 current juniors,would each be receiving $20 every time that O'reilly drove that penalty free winner.I'm not advocating for that,but it makes much more sense than the current system which does more harm than good.

Some good observations mate. I agree in respect of the Penalty free system is not great. Leave that for the amatuer driver races maybe ? racing for less prize-money .

I would of thought a junior still gets same driving fee/ percentages as a senior driver. no problem. that's fair.

But a small increase to the 'owner' is a good way to lure the owner (a LOT of trainers are part owners in Nz) into putting a junior driver on with a clause of ' An extra 1k-2k paid if the race is Won by a horse with a junior driver.'

1 hour ago, the galah said:

The point being the expectation that juniors seeing just a handful of other juniors getting an extra drive or two a week,will lead to increased junior participation is not a reality

exactly!! . That's why you need a Junior drivers race ( Two even IMO ) on every race-card. Is not a reality I know, but would of been great to give those 'fringe' juniors an extra drive, or 4 , per week  to show their ability .

Otherwise, as is now , and in my day , You go to Aus or do something else. Luke Whittaker left there and is going great guns in Brisbane just now as a Junior. Jack Trainor gets great Open class drives at Menangle (not a junior anymore) but left there to 'get a go' which your system is sadly lacking.  young kiwi Trent Lethaby got nothing there, so is in Brisbane doing well and has a horse in a $100,000 race this week at Redcliffe. Good on em" (the horse is owned by a once great kiwi horseman in Graeme Harris too ) I raced against 'Harry the horseman' a few times lol... he's still going strong after leaving Nz years ago as a very good trainer/driver .

The current system does give some 'fringe juniors' a go as you mentioned with the penalty free stuff,  So someone was trying to do something to give them a 'go' i guess . but the pitfalls are many , and you outlined some. 

[Brodie]

System is badly not working unfortunately!

Great to have Juniors getting opportunities and some trainers are just playing by the current rules!

Mark Jones for example is utilising the current rule using Gemma Thornley to advantage and good on him!

The grading system is pretty outdated now when horses that have won in excess of 12 wins are competing with horses that are straight out of winning a non winners race!!

There has to be a better way of doing things, like 1 to 2 wins and under a certain amount of $ won!

Pointless and unfair when they have races carded for 35 to 50 etc!

Sane horses competing against each other week in and week out for same horses finishing down the track!

Bring back the CLAIMERS at Addington!

[the galah]

Junior drivers can now be juniors well in to their 30's.As long as they became a junior before they turned 30 and haven't driven over 100 winners.

So you could be 35 years old and have driven 99 winners and still be eligible to get a penalty free win in any of those 4 races in southland on saturday.And that junior could get that penalty free  win with  a horse who has had a penalty free junior win for the previous 5 years and who has also had say 10 junior  half rating wins previously.

meanwhile joe bloggs horse,a 4year old 1 win horse will get a full rating penalty if he uses the local  non junior driver. That non junior driver most likely no longer receives enough income to work full time in the industry and works part time somewhere else, as he only gets a couple of drives a meeting and is becoming disillusioned. 

so what does joe bloggs do,well next time he gets the junior driver and says to his regular driver,sorry mate,but given the way the system favors the juniors,you would do the same. But don't worry,we can line up against the very same horses who we thrashed this week and you can drive him then.

As to juniors. What type of advice are they given around things like tax returns. Does the industry provide them the advice of a good accountant who knows how to exploit the tax system and claim on anything and everything possible. There must be ways that can use income in a way that isn't taxable,which could benefit both the junior drivers and those giving the assistance.For example how is sponsorship handled.

thats just one example.Why is the focus not on things that will help all juniors,not just the high achieving few.

Edited June 21, 2023 by the galah

[Doomed]

This is a subject that has always interested me. Harness Racing's biggest problem is not getting horses through the grades, and yet they love running penalty free races as much as possible.

There are endless maidens and low grade races in the South, but programme a race equivalent to the old 5+ wins and you are lucky to get 7 starters. I have no idea where all the winners of lower grade horses go.

I don't believe the harness rating system works. I can never follow it (admittedly I don't try very hard) but I can easily follow the galloping system. Also, this idea of having a higher stake for maiden races than for winners is just totally beyond me. It seems to take the socialist approach to extremes.

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Doomed said:

This is a subject that has always interested me. Harness Racing's biggest problem is not getting horses through the grades, and yet they love running penalty free races as much as possible.

There are endless maidens and low grade races in the South, but programme a race equivalent to the old 5+ wins and you are lucky to get 7 starters. I have no idea where all the winners of lower grade horses go.

I don't believe the harness rating system works. I can never follow it (admittedly I don't try very hard) but I can easily follow the galloping system. Also, this idea of having a higher stake for maiden races than for winners is just totally beyond me. It seems to take the socialist approach to extremes.

Thats the irony doomed.

They moan about not enough horses progressing to higher ratings to increase the field size in races rated 55 and over,yet they have a policy of programming more and more penalty free races.

I mean ask yourself,who makes these dumb as decisions. Its beyond stupid.

Heres a couple of observations that proves just how farcical the whole handicapping system has become.

Theres 3 meetings in the south island In the next 3 days.

Addington tonight have- 100 horses running. 92 are rated under 55,only 8 above.

Addington on sunday-all 123 horses are rated under 55.In fact only 1 is rated over 50            (arizonawildcat0 r54)

Invercargill on saturday-105 starters-95 under 55, 10 rated over 55(7 trotters and 3 pacers)

 

And to top off just how farciacal the whole rating system has become.

Addington on sunday-do you know who 7 of the top 10 rated horses running all day are......Well the answer is 7 first starters. Thats right 7 first starters are rated in the top 10 for the day.

Its all become a bit of a joke when you look at the figures.

Just say one of those first starters who is aged 4 or over,happens to win and then wins its second start as well.Where will that place that 2 start horse.It would be in the top 19 rated horses. It would be rated above 310 horses running this weekend. Thats just after its second start.

Unbelievable,but its a fact.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by the galah

[Doomed]

12 minutes ago, the galah said:

Thats the irony doomed.

They moan about not enough horses progressing to higher ratings to increase the field size in races rated 55 and over,yet they have a policy of programming more and more penalty free races.

I mean ask yourself,who makes these dumb as decisions. Its beyond stupid.

Heres a couple of observations that proves just how farcical the whole handicapping system has become.

Theres 3 meetings in the south island In the next 3 days.

Addington tonight have- 100 horses running. 92 are rated under 55,only 8 above.

Addington on sunday-all 123 horses are rated under 55.In fact only 1 is rated over 50            (arizonawildcat0 r54)

Invercargill on saturday-105 starters-95 under 55, 10 rated over 55(7 trotters and 3 pacers)

 

And to top off just how farciacal the whole rating system has become.

Addington on sunday-do you know who 7 of the top 10 rated horses running all day are......Well the answer is 7 first starters. Thats right 7 first starters are rated in the top 10 for the day.

Its all become a bit of a joke when you look at the figures.

Just say one of those first starters who is aged 4 or over,happens to win and then wins its second start as well.Where will that place that 2 start horse.It would be in the top 19 rated horses. It would be rated above 310 horses running this weekend. Thats just after its second start.

Unbelievable,but its a fact.

 

 

That's an incredibly intelligent post in the harness section. I must look on here more often.