Noodlum

There's an old saying - "Live by the sword, Die by the sword".

So who is the RIU leak? You or Grimstone?

Well the mare might not have another black type chance.

Further you argue that the drugs that were used were undetectable. That is totally implausible with the sophistication of modern testing. Now what were the alleged drugs that they were indicted on? Surely somewhere in all the FBI investigations they found something that was measurable. We know that Clenbuterol was found but what else? If you have information on the evidence of these chemicals then post the links. All the indictments talk about are vague references to nicknames for them.

Oh and before you bang on about it not being able to be detected explain how the Louisiana 2nd place getter was disqualified because of it in 2003! Thats 18 years ago! The issue has been around differences in thresholds between different jurisdictions in the USA and globally.

But you spun the example you gave into something it wasn't or isn't. The drug in question was Clenbuterol. It was detectable and was detected. It is a a legitimate therapeutic drug for the treatment of bronchial conditions in horses. The issue is allegedly it was used not as a performance enhancing drug but as a drug to promote an increase in lean muscle mass. But you are fixated on your angle and can't see past that. In many respects the FBI engagement is similar to the Police involvement to INCA. So to spell it out for you the drug Clenbuterol is a legitimate therapeutic drug but may have been misused. Even then there is little evidence to support that it does offer any advantage.

His performance record at the TAB was enough for me.

Isn't that what they did for INCA? I guess the Police aren't so keen to be involved now.

You'd shoot a parrot if it kept repeating itself! Where's Woodham on the front foot? Where are the RIU leaks coming from?

There you go again just because the testers can't find anything it must follow that the cheaters are more sophisticated than the enforcers. Bollocks! However you must be an adherent of point 2. That is the RIU testing regime is crap. Modern testing picks up ANYTHING! It looks for ANYTHING out of the norm! They've found NOTHING because there is NOTHING to find.

BUT THEY HAVEN'T FOUND ANYTHING! They haven't found anything in the last 10 years!

Don't really care Gammalite. You miss the point of the exercise and the list only had one license suspension on it. It was the HORSES that were disqualified not the Trainers!

How far back do you want to go? Hell why don't we don't we do some forensic analysis on Cardigan Bay's remains might explain his performances. If you have to go back to the Blue Magic saga then it shows that you really are struggling to prove anything.

So you, Galah and Newmarket believe the opposite contrary to the evidence i.e. there is doping occurring and at a significant level. So why isn't there any evidence? That can only mean one of two things - the dopers are really smart and are able to avoid detection or the RIU testing and monitoring regime is a load of crap or both. Take the first one - "The dopers are really smart and are able to avoid detection". Of those that have been "caught" recently have they looked that "smart"? Certainly not up in the upper echelons of the intelligence or rather knowledge to be sophisticated chemists able to avoid "the state of the art modern testing technology." There is ample evidence to support that when you look at what they have been charged with. As yet there has been no positive test evidence of any doping! OH of course it must be some super new drug that is undetectable and the authorities have never heard of before. Yeah right. Second - "The RIU testing and monitoring regimes is a load of crap!" The inference is the RIU is incompetent and not as smart as the dopers. Even for me that is a bit of stretch. There are doubts that the $10m the RIU costs each year is being spent wisely but even so they sure as hell have a lot more resources at their fingertips than the "dopers". Most of the latter are struggling to earn a living! NO guaranteed salary regardless of performance for them! Don't forget the extra estimated $10m or possibly more spent on INCA which to date has found no evidence of widespread fraud, cheating, match fixing or doping! Haven't even the Police walked away from it? The irony is that the RIU didn't need the Police in the first place that is they had the power and authority to achieve what has been achieved so far WITHOUT their Police mates! Both 1 and 2: Assuming 1 and 2 are true regardless of any evidence then it follows that there is collusion between the "dopers" and RIU staff. Now that would be an interesting conspiracy theory. Mmmm should all Pete Lamb's starts be looked at to see who was favoured in them and then cross referenced with betting records? So what do we actually have evidence for? Well in my opinion the evidence is heavily weighted in favour of there being NO widespread doping, fraud or in the vernacular cheating! Otherwise you have to believe the naysayers who have zip nada nothing in terms of evidence except - "Oh that stable must be cheating because they do so well!"

Ok I get what you and Newmarket are on about now. The inference is that another stables employee nobbled another's horse with Ketoprofen. That isn't within the criteria of this exercise. To reiterate there is little evidence from positive tests that there is widespread horse doping occurring in the harness racing industry. 3 cases a year the vast majority of which are mistakes doesn't constitute widespread fraud from my point of view. But you guys keep bagging the industry you supposedly support.

My apologies I didn't read the full report. Yes Melina Lowe returned a positive to Ketoprofen. However as with a number of Ketoprofen positives one could argue it was a mistake in withholding periods. FFS why administer a prohibited substance which is easily detectable? Using Ketoprofen ISNT PROHIBITED as a therapeutic.

What's your point?

I didn't say they were all mistakes. I also said the last 10 years not going back nearly 30 years! I'm sure Ben Hur probably had a positive as well. The Forbury incident in 2016 was a charge under rule Rule 1004(5) - which is in possession of a prohibited substance on a racecourse on raceday. It was to be used POST race. NO POSITIVE WAS RETURNED! Ketoprofen is a legitimate therapeutic treatment. The Westport TCO2 test was 0.6 mg/l over the threshold i.e. it was 36.8 with the threshold being 36.2. Keep trying Newmarket. The purpose of the exercise was to show that there doesn't seem to be a helluva lot of doping going on!

I see Galah seems to have not taken your question seriously but you raise a valid point. The vitamin B12 has Cobalt as part of its makeup.

But you only had sympathy for one case before? The fact is there are 28 cases in the last 10 years. Less than 3 a year. 27 Trainers. The only performance enhancing drug found was Caffeine. Except for the Dunn case where no source could be found (assumed to be knobbling) the source was identified as a misused feed additive. Cobalt - mostly feed additive issues with only one case where there was evidence of intravenous administration. Ketoprofen (Ouvrail) - a gel used to treat muscle pain and inflammation. One case of "Bute" - withholding period issue. TCO2 - several cases ranging from 0.2-3mg/l over the threshold. DMSO - two cases - one Smoken Up and the other a withholding period issue. Note - DMSO is not a prohibited substance.

Then didn't you find the testing sloppy where controls can provide positives? One of the significant things about the Smoken Up/LJ Justice case was the identifying of serious issues with NZ's testing protocols and procedures. I think one of the outcomes after that was to tighten those things up and have a protocol in place to use overseas racing jurisdiction labs such as the Hong Kong one.

Well you obviously read them with one eye closed. No sympathy for Walkinshaw, Hoffman, Clementson? Or the Smith's? Or any of the feed additive stuff ups? For substances that have zero performance enhancing effects at the measured doses?

BUT WHAT THE FUCK are they enforcing? As yet they have come up with SFA in terms of performance enhancing drug use and even less when it comes to match fixing. The closest they have got is with Alford but as yet we don't know what was in the syringes. Hell I'm damn interested to know what it is! From what I've seen so far is a whole lot of collateral damage, home goals and stuff all else. "We know you are cheating because someone called our snitch line and told us. We are going to harass and harass you until you break. We'll get you." But when it comes to the testing regime what have they proven? SFA! Look at this list. Where are the big goals? The big wins? Hell you aren't dealing with Trainers who are highly educated sophisticated chemists who spend zillions on the latest high tech drugs and masking agents. By the way I'm on a public transport bus and I'm not wearing a mask. Give Cindy a ring.

There have been instances of arsenic being detected from horses chewing fence posts.

What's your point in relation to this debate?