Will Celine get put out for interference?

[Chief Stipe]

 

[All The Aces]

It was her own fault that this incident happened.

Luberon had warned her at the start of the clip that she wanted to lay out. You will notice that Gaudray had to straighten her and she should have then pulled her whip through to her left hand to contiune to ride the horse out. Instead she keeps her whip in her right hand and hits Luberon on the right hand side who immediately runs out sharply with Gaudray losing the right rein. 

I think Gaudray is a very promising rider but she stuffed up on Luberon on Saturday but at least both horse and rider have come through relatively unscathed. 

     

[Gammalite]

13 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

It was her own fault that this incident happened.

Luberon had warned her at the start of the clip that she wanted to lay out. You will notice that Gaudray had to straighten her and she should have then pulled her whip through to her left hand to contiune to ride the horse out. Instead she keeps her whip in her right hand and hits Luberon on the right hand side who immediately runs out sharply with Gaudray losing the right rein. 

I think Gaudray is a very promising rider but she stuffed up on Luberon on Saturday but at least both horse and rider have come through relatively unscathed. 

     

Yes indeed . the horse gave her a great 'forewarning' with a marked shift out at the beginning of this amazing vision. Sort of bounced off the horse in white colours.

She straightened it , still looking a big winning chance , then gave it a couple of big whacks again and paid the penalty. horse obviously resenting the whip ( as wasn't shying away from anything else) shame she ignored the forewarning ....

(didn't the rail track staff get there quick ??😁 on the scene of the 'exploding rail' before the horses got to the finish line even 😆. kiwi efficiency 👍)

[Chief Stipe]

In Harness Racing in NZ you'd get put out for a week for poor driving.

In Australia you'd get 10 days (meetings!) suspension. Remember Ben Melham?

 

[All The Aces]

Gaudray was also lucky not to be charged for going to the front and then slowing right down around the 800m. The carnage that ensued to four horses ie Tears Of Victory, Mary Shan, Firestorm and Molly Bloom had a significant bearing on the race.   

 

[Chief Stipe]

15 minutes ago, All The Aces said:

Gaudray was also lucky not to be charged for going to the front and then slowing right down around the 800m. The carnage that ensued to four horses ie Tears Of Victory, Mary Shan, Firestorm and Molly Bloom had a significant bearing on the race.   

 

But the Stipes are experts on everything else why didn't they pick it up?

[All The Aces]

One week later and we have another horse exit stage left in the straight. This time Above The Clouds at Tauranga in R8 carving up the field.

Ashvin Goindasamy hits Above The Clouds on the right hand side and the horse veers out sharply onto El Nymph hampering her and also Hit The Road Jack. Goindasamy straightens her and  pulls the whip through to his left hand which was the correct thing to do and uses it and then for some reason swaps it back to his right hand and hits the mare on the right side and she immediately reacts again by veering out very sharply skittling El Nymph, Cork, Trust In You and Finest Wine. 

Above The Clouds had given him plenty of warning earlier in the straight when reacting badly to being hit on the right hand side. yet he goes back and does it again.   

[curious]

3 hours ago, All The Aces said:

One week later and we have another horse exit stage left in the straight. This time Above The Clouds at Tauranga in R8 carving up the field.

Ashvin Goindasamy hits Above The Clouds on the right hand side and the horse veers out sharply onto El Nymph hampering her and also Hit The Road Jack. Goindasamy straightens her and  pulls the whip through to his left hand which was the correct thing to do and uses it and then for some reason swaps it back to his right hand and hits the mare on the right side and she immediately reacts again by veering out very sharply skittling El Nymph, Cork, Trust In You and Finest Wine. 

Above The Clouds had given him plenty of warning earlier in the straight when reacting badly to being hit on the right hand side. yet he goes back and does it again.   

What bothers me about this is that the stewards' response in both cases is that the horse must trial to the satisfaction of the stewards. Luberon did that and ticked the box without ever even being shown the whip. So, we have a horse that could easily do the same thing again in her next start in the Guineas with no evidence that the necessary re-education has taken place successfully and risking complete disruption to an important Group 1 race let alone the health and safety of other horses and riders. If that happens then the RIB must surely be held accountable?

[Freda]

Never.  Accountable?  Doesn't happen.

Just ask Reefton.

[Freda]

4 hours ago, curious said:

What bothers me about this is that the stewards' response in both cases is that the horse must trial to the satisfaction of the stewards. Luberon did that and ticked the box without ever even being shown the whip. So, we have a horse that could easily do the same thing again in her next start in the Guineas with no evidence that the necessary re-education has taken place successfully and risking complete disruption to an important Group 1 race let alone the health and safety of other horses and riders. If that happens then the RIB must surely be held accountable?

I'm a bit curious - no pun intended - as to how one might re-educate a horse which appears to resent being struck with a whip?

Educating riders, I feel, might be more productive.

[curious]

1 hour ago, Freda said:

I'm a bit curious - no pun intended - as to how one might re-educate a horse which appears to resent being struck with a whip?

Educating riders, I feel, might be more productive.

Taking the whip off them all together would solve the issue. One of the world's great horsemen had this to say about the matter.

Excerpt from Chapter 6 of Monty’s textbook, From My Hands to Yours
To do a dissertation on the whip in racing, I feel the first thing a horseman should say is, “It does not matter whether it’s racing or any other discipline, the whip is the whip.”

Equus, the flight animal, is about 50 million years old. If you accept the discovery by Dr. Louis Leakey of Lucy in the Olduvai Gorge, then humans are approximately 3.2 million years old. We must conclude then that horses got along just fine without human beings for 47 million years. We are quick, however, to use the term “problem horse,” a quite pompous statement from a species so junior.

A scientific fact is that horses are flight animals and, as the reader knows, they only have two goals in life (survival and reproduction). Horses do not often think strongly about reproduction during a race, which leaves us with only one facet of a horse’s existence, his goal to survive. Consider for a moment that we are human beings dealing with horses under circumstances extremely demanding and frightening to them.Knowing that they are vitally concerned with their own survival, we often conclude that the best course of action is to whip them and cause them pain in the hopes that it will get them to run faster.

I submit that this is not only a bad decision from a humane standpoint, but a worse decision where its effect is concerned. Horses are “into-pain” animals. Their natural tendency is to push into pressure, like a child does biting on hard bread when cutting teeth. We may frighten a horse the first few times we whip him in a race, but very soon he may resent the whip and back-up to it, actually causing him to run more slowly.

You so often hear the statement, “We need the whips for safety’s sake,” but, in fact, nothing could be further from the truth, because far more accidents are caused by whips than are ever averted by whips. In fact, if a jockey felt the need for a whip to guide the horse, why not use a spongy, Nerf whip so that no pain could be produced?

In a recent conversation with Trevor Denman (a race announcer at the Santa Anita race track), he said to me that he felt it would be a good idea if every time there was a disqualification, the newspaper should read that, “the horse ducked from the whip and interfered with the progress of another horse and was thus disqualified.” Trevor suggested that an extremely high percentage of disqualifications were caused by using the whip. Further, he said that if the bettors could understand that, they would be less apt to insist that jockeys use the whips to verify that they are trying.

Aside from whether it is effective or not, let us examine for a moment how we stand with the rest of the world on this issue. Nearly all the racing countries of the world are dealing with the issue of the whip in ways that suggest it will soon be obsolete. I believe Great Britain is down to five strikes now, while Sweden has restricted the use of the whip severely, and, I think, only in front of the girth. In Germany, it is interesting to note that all two-year-olds are ridden only with a soft Nerf whip, which is handed to the jockey as he leaves the weighing room. The United States is virtually the only country to fail to act on what has become an important issue to race fans the world over.

The third facet, and possibly the most important, is in the area of public perception. We, in racing, need to be pro-active. We need to realize that many potential race fans abhor the use of the whip and are turned off by our sport. What if we had whipless racing? Someone would be first, someone would be last and someone would be in the middle, exactly as it is with the whips. As for finding the genetic aptitude for racing, would you not prefer the winning horse to run out of a natural desire, rather than running from pain? And, wouldn’t we be more acceptable to our audience?

I believe the number of race fans would increase with a strong promotional program featuring whipless racing. As racehorse people, we often say we are giving the horse a chance to do what he loves best, run. I believe that is a true statement, but if it is what he loves best, why do we have to whip him to do it? We do not.

It is my opinion that the best jockeys would still be the best jockeys, and in fact, true horsemanship skills would come to the front if we were to eliminate whipping.

An Interesting Fact: Barbaro ran the last 1/4 mile of the Kentucky Derby with the fastest time over that 1/4 mile since Secretariet without ever feeling the whip of jockey Edgar Prado. Click here for more!   Prado never touched Barbaro with his whip, never asked him to do anything more than was necessary. His gentle handling of Barbaro had more to do with humane rather than competitive considerations, Prado says. “If he’s running real hard, why should he be punished?” he says. “I’m a horse lover more than anything else.”

I sincerely believe that the buggy whips used at the starting gate cause far more trouble than good. I have spent a good deal of my life studying equine behavior at the starting gate and I am absolutely convinced that the elimination of the whip would actually make life easier for the starting-gate crews.

People love animals, and we are supposed to be a civilized species. Is it not time for us to consider changing some of our retained barbaric ways? We have stopped lashing prisoners and whipping small children. Is it not time that we stopped whipping our horses, flight animals, who have no intention to hurt anyone? My goal is to leave the world a better place than I found it—for horses and people too. Racing could lead the horse industry in this truly important area of humane treatment.

[Chief Stipe]

What a load of emotional claptrap.

Why don't we just stop riding horses fullstop and stop forcing then to do something they are not designed for.

[Freda]

15 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

What a load of emotional claptrap.

Why don't we just stop riding horses fullstop and stop forcing then to do something they are not designed for.

No doubt, we do ask them things they aren't designed to do.

Whipping, then, has to be both cruel, and stupid - as they are being punished for not doing what they can't do.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Freda

[the galah]

11 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

What a load of emotional claptrap.

Why don't we just stop riding horses fullstop and stop forcing then to do something they are not designed for.

I think he argues his point well.

I'm like you,i don't agree with all he says,but i think he has some very good points.

Is it not an obvious question to ask after watching Luberon. If she is sensitive to the whip being used,why don't they just run it without the whip? It just seems so logical. 

[Chief Stipe]

19 minutes ago, the galah said:

I think he argues his point well.

I'm like you,i don't agree with all he says,but i think he has some very good points.

Is it not an obvious question to ask after watching Luberon. If she is sensitive to the whip being used,why don't they just run it without the whip? It just seems so logical. 

Just don't use it.  Carry it but don't use it and put a strong rider on to teach it some race manners.

As for the article it's nonsense.  It mixes up a romantic notion of the horse without considering the 100's of years of selective breeding and partnership with humans.

The best horses I've been involved with have been fighters not horses fleeing some perceived danger.  

[Chief Stipe]

28 minutes ago, Freda said:

Whipping, then, has to be both cruel, and stupid - as they are being punished for not doing what they can't do.

Really @Freda then why bother training or doing anything with horses?  Isn't just as cruel to put bits in their mouths and practically blind fold with blinkers?

[Freda]

31 minutes ago, Freda said:

No doubt, we do ask them things they aren't designed to do.

Whipping, then, has to be both cruel, and stupid - as they are being punished for not doing what they can't do.

And then we have the other side of the coin...the sight of J Mac throwing the kitchen sink at Romantic Warrior and Riff Rocket was not pretty.

Would those horses have won without the striping?  Probably not.  So then, therefore, whipping works.

Is there a happy medium?  Should whips be banned altogether?  No whip rules at all?

For the future public acceptance of the sport, banning is probably the way to go.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Freda]

7 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Really @Freda then why bother training or doing anything with horses?  Isn't just as cruel to put bits in their mouths and practically blind fold with blinkers?

Bits in their mouths are far less of a problem than the hands at the other end.

[curious]

45 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Just don't use it.  Carry it but don't use it and put a strong rider on to teach it some race manners.

As for the article it's nonsense.  It mixes up a romantic notion of the horse without considering the 100's of years of selective breeding and partnership with humans.

The best horses I've been involved with have been fighters not horses fleeing some perceived danger.  

Why carry it if you are not going to use it? Just get rid of the bloody things.

You make my case by your last comment.

More from Monty on this and I confess he has been a huge influence on my life and horsemanship but he has a way of putting these things in a nutshell.

“Violence is never the answer.” Roberts took his message of violence-free horse training to the world stage in 1996 encouraged by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. Already Roberts had been the leading Thoroughbred consignor at Hollywood Park Race Track for 13 years. He says that his horses respond to his non-violent approach.

“A whip has no place in horsemanship at all,” argues Roberts. “It’s medieval for horses.” He also points out that a horse that wants to win, that has that competitive spirit and natural “will to win” is always going to be a far better racing prospect than the one that has to be beaten for half of the race.

In 2006 Edgar Prado never touched Barbaro with his whip and never asked him to do anything more than was necessary. Prado said, “If he’s running real hard, why should he be punished? I’m a horse lover more than anything else.”

A student of Roberts’s concepts, Hong Kong’s leading rider and 7-time winner of the Jockeys Championship Trophy, Douglas Whyte, said “I still believe I can get more out of a horse by encouraging them rather than punishing them. My job is to win the horse’s confidence and to get them to run to their best for me.”

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by curious

[curious]

57 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Really @Freda then why bother training or doing anything with horses?  Isn't just as cruel to put bits in their mouths and practically blind fold with blinkers?

No. Most horses accept the bit quickly and learn how it directs them.

[Gammalite]

5 minutes ago, curious said:

“A whip has no place in horsemanship at all,” argues Roberts. “It’s medieval for horses.” He also points out that a horse that wants to win, that has that competitive spirit and natural “will to win” is always going to be a far better racing prospect than the one that has to be beaten for half of the race.

Whips are a great aid mate. Been used for working horses since time began. Even working dogs like sled ones etc. I used long line whip every horse ever broke in . you could drive them up tail gates of trucks and all over the place while long-reining the youngsters and mouthing them , and generally just getting them to obey your commands. They need PROMPTING mate . a horse isn't going to go and get on the truck itself , or into a barrier stall , or drive around the ring in the shows , or even go for joy rides round the streets of Vienna . even the most educated ones still need a PROMPT to produce the TASK that you have set it . In thoroughbred racing a whip has always been a great PROMPT device  to let the horse know when it's time to PUT IN the HARD yards.

It's called a race . A horse doesn't want to generally head the other ones off if it had the choice. It would probably stop running and eat some of the nice green turf. That's wasn't the task it was set.

The horses are looked after Way Better than people look after themselves mate. They're worth a few dollars in most cases and people are worthless lol. Whips make a BIT of NOISE mainly and don't hurt the horse . Damien Oliver screaming like a BANSHEE to scare the horses into winning like he often does,  is probably more harmful to their ears and brain 😂😆 

I see ZERO horses coming back to scale after a race looking like they are remotely concerned about these perceived 'barbaric whip strikes' they endured . they are usually just trying to catch their breath a bit , and looking for the water bucket and/or  a nice cooldown shower . and then 'where's my tucker' a bit later is more of a concern for them. I have Never had to treat a 'Whip injury'  in 20 years of working with horses. 

[curious]

On 5/11/2023 at 10:31 AM, Gammalite said:

Whips are a great aid mate. Been used for working horses since time began. Even working dogs like sled ones etc. I used long line whip every horse ever broke in . you could drive them up tail gates of trucks and all over the place while long-reining the youngsters and mouthing them , and generally just getting them to obey your commands. They need PROMPTING mate . a horse isn't going to go and get on the truck itself , or into a barrier stall , or drive around the ring in the shows , or even go for joy rides round the streets of Vienna . even the most educated ones still need a PROMPT to produce the TASK that you have set it . In thoroughbred racing a whip has always been a great PROMPT device  to let the horse know when it's time to PUT IN the HARD yards.

It's called a race . A horse doesn't want to generally head the other ones off if it had the choice. It would probably stop running and eat some of the nice green turf. That's wasn't the task it was set.

The horses are looked after Way Better than people look after themselves mate. They're worth a few dollars in most cases and people are worthless lol. Whips make a BIT of NOISE mainly and don't hurt the horse . Damien Oliver screaming like a BANSHEE to scare the horses into winning like he often does,  is probably more harmful to their ears and brain 😂😆 

I see ZERO horses coming back to scale after a race looking like they are remotely concerned about these perceived 'barbaric whip strikes' they endured . they are usually just trying to catch their breath a bit , and looking for the water bucket and/or  a nice cooldown shower . and then 'where's my tucker' a bit later is more of a concern for them. I have Never had to treat a 'Whip injury'  in 20 years of working with horses. 

Just a different way of doing things I guess. I've started 100s of horses but would not put a bit in their mouth before they've learned to start stop and steer via visual, voice and bodyweight signals. Don't use the bit to teach them that.