Cup Day 2023

[Walt]

I watched Lord Module win in 1979. He was my fav horse. Still is. I was there for the epic Hands Down victory over Delightful Lady in 1980. In 1981, I saw Armalight go to the front and bolt away from the field at exactly the time I thought she would likely be feeling the heat from her efforts. The last Cup I attended was in 1982 when Bonnie's Chance bolted away with her Cup. I went to the races that day with $30. I drove off the course with the biggest amount I've ever won at the races. It was well north of 25k.

We went back to Christchurch on Monday to spend time with a wonderful family that have won numerous NZ Cups. They gifted us their Cup Day tickets and we had the best seat in the house. 

It was a fantastic day that was dominated by the All Stars.  Millwood Nike was magnificent but Chase A Dream was legendary. I will never forget both victories. With a round to go I said Catch A Dream was still going to win. That win paid for all our expenses on the trip and then some. Probably won't need to pay for a drink for a while. It's been a while since a yelled a horse home like that

The Cup was a bit of an anti climax for me but I concede I'm mostly talking via my pocket. Swayzee got a better start than any other horse I can recall in the Cup. Looked "almost" like a mobile start for him to my eye. The moment I saw Macandrew Navigator in front I knew the 3200 metre race was as good as done. Swayzee could amble to the top with zero resistance and then have Akuta exactly where he wanted him. The result was sealed. Good for the Cup to have the Aussie horses over here and Swayzee looked like a beast in his prelim. I received five texts on Cup Day from very good judges, two especially all telling me Swayzee would win the Cup.

Biggest negatives for me were the far king Greyhound races blaring on the TV to patrons in the members / owners area. I didn't see one person watching them. Those races cheapened a very special day. The reporting of a "Mass Brawl'...What a load of bollocks. It was handbags at ten paces between a couple of roosters that had too much sun and too many shandy's. Why the media felt compelled to report it the way they did was perplexing. My last critique is using the 97 year old cure for insomnia Craig Thompson. Seems a decent enough man and I don't doubt his knowledge.....but fark me, he's the most boring man in the game. Surely, there's a better option as the front man for NZ Harness especially if we want to attract young people into the game. 

Can't wait for next years Cup Day.

 

[Gammalite]

Swayzee winning the Cup. so funny.  Still struggle to believe he could beat AKUTA.

Here's his last start at a Queensland provincial track Redcliffe,   in April this year 2023.

None of these horses usually good enough to even start at the city track Albion Park.

Swayzee getting home in less than 30 seconds last 1/4 , beaten 35m,  picking up 60 bucks . Doing well for Riley Butt and ex-pat  Nzer 'Lyell Creek' trainer  Tim Butt . Nz Cup same year ??? hahahahaha

Place	Name	Prizemoney	Hcp	Driver	Margin
1	OUR ACTION MAN	$3,755	FT	B W Barnes
2	CAPTAINS PICK	$1,073	FT	G W DIXON	9.60
3	NO DOUBT NZ	$536	FT	L T Cain	19.30
4	SO BOBS YOUR UNCLE NZ	$358	FT	L J WHITTAKER	24.70
5	JUST JOSHIN	$238	FT	M P NEILSON	24.90
6	THERESACHANCE	$60	FT	A P Richardson	30.10
7	MALINJANG	$60	FT	A R Garrard	30.30
8	MUMMYS BOY	$60	FT	N M Dawson	31.70
9	SWAYZEE	$60	FT	R P Butt	34.90

 

 

Track Rating:	GOOD	Gross Time:	2:30.4	Mile Rate:	1:58.6
First Quarter:	30.3	Second Quarter:	30.0	Third Quarter:	29.8	Fourth Quarter:	30.0

[Chief Stipe]

Swayzee did run 1.53 as a 2yr old.

Bolted in in his first race as a 2yr old at Menangle winning by 14m.  Trained by AM Butt and driven by Jason Grimson.

Perhaps the questions should be asked about what has gone wrong at the Butt stable?

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=PC210420

 

 

1.54 maiden winner running last 1/4 in 27.

Looked a potential champion on that performance.  

[Chief Stipe]

I also notice that Swayzee had a 10 month spell between September 2021 and August 2022.  

He then had 19 starts to April 2023 when Grimson takes him on.  He had still been winning and running good time but below his previous form prior to that.

Grimson gives him a month off racing.  The horse comes back and improves by 1.5%  I.e. about a second.  His races under Grimson have been well spaced by comparison to the previous trainer who in my opinion thrashed the horse.

I see a similar pattern with some other trainers where a good horse who shows talent early is raced hard and not placed well.  Subsequently their form drops off.  

Harness horses that can run top time as a 2yr old don't get slower they get stronger as they age 

Grimson is placing Swayzee very well.  He could have undone everything with the horse if he had backed up in the FFA.

 

[the galah]

6 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Swayzee did run 1.53 as a 2yr old.

Bolted in in his first race as a 2yr old at Menangle winning by 14m.  Trained by AM Butt and driven by Jason Grimson.

Perhaps the questions should be asked about what has gone wrong at the Butt stable?

https://www.harness.org.au/racing/fields/race-fields/?mc=PC210420

 

 

1.54 maiden winner running last 1/4 in 27.

Looked a potential champion on that performance.  

Thats a good video to put up chief.Obviously mr grimson was aware the horse had real talent and there can be no denying that he is a very good trainer who gets the best from his horses and that swayzee and his driver are also very good.

But if you are looking for balance ,just put up the last 3 videos of Cya art,who ran 2nd in the junior free for all on cup day. The run on cup day for grimson was significantly better than the previous 2, when trained by the telfers.The telfers won last years premiership and are very good trainers. Grimson would have only been in nz little more than a week with cya art.

So its just an obvious thing to ask,how does he do it. And i think given he does it with so many and is so significant,everyone thinks its got to be with some type of performance enhancement.

As i've said theres no doubt hes a very good trainer,but theres no denying the use of legal or undetected performance enhancers can be the difference in winning or being an also ran.

i'm just stating the obvious.

Edited November 19, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

But if you are looking for balance ,just put up the last 3 videos of Cya art,who ran 2nd in the junior free for all on cup day. The run on cup day for grimson was significantly better than the previous 2, when trained by the telfers.The telfers won last years premiership and are very good trainers. Grimson would have only been in nz little more than a week with cya art.

Explain why the performance was exceptional for Cya Art?  It had the run of the race, spent nothing from its draw of 1 and sat behind the winner for the entire race.  They really only sprinted  home the last 800m - another top drive by Mark Purdon.  When Cya Art came off the winners back it just kept up beaten 1.3 lengths. 

Cya Art ran a near identical race in April at the Met in the same time but was the performance of that race.  Sitting parked for most of the first lap.  Then shuffled back a bit before running the fastest last 400m of the race to finish second. 

That was an R55-R67 race and he ran up to that performance in the Junior FFA which arguably was run well below its normal standard.  They've run two seconds quicker in the Junior FFA in the previous two years.

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

58 minutes ago, the galah said:

Grimson would have only been in nz little more than a week with cya art.

I would have said they bought the horse after Kaikoura and were running tests on it before then.  So at least 2 weeks training and other information longer.  

1 hour ago, the galah said:

So its just an obvious thing to ask,how does he do it. And i think given he does it with so many and is so significant,everyone thinks its got to be with some type of performance enhancement.

99% of the time as I've shown with Swayzee the improvements aren't all that significant.  Arguably you can say the same for Cya Art.

1 hour ago, the galah said:

As i've said theres no doubt hes a very good trainer,but theres no denying the use of legal or undetected performance enhancers can be the difference in winning or being an also ran.

i'm just stating the obvious.

With no evidence for performances that based on the horses previous form is attainable.  Do you really think that given all the publicity, innuendo, inference and accusations of wrong doing that Cya Art and Swayzee weren't being closely monitored by the RIB over the last two weeks?  Pre-race blood testing was done and both horses were swabbed.  

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

The telfers won last years premiership and are very good trainers.

AM Butt was once too.  They don't have a particularly high UDR the Telfers which would tend to indicate that their premiership win is based on horse numbers.

[Brodie]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

AM Butt was once too.  They don't have a particularly high UDR the Telfers which would tend to indicate that their premiership win is based on horse numbers.

Dont you mean Tim Butt, Chief?

[the galah]

8 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Explain why the performance was exceptional for Cya Art?  It had the run of the race, spent nothing from its draw of 1 and sat behind the winner for the entire race.  They really only sprinted  home the last 800m - another top drive by Mark Purdon.  When Cya Art came off the winners back it just kept up beaten 1.3 lengths. 

Cya Art ran a near identical race in April at the Met in the same time but was the performance of that race.  Sitting parked for most of the first lap.  Then shuffled back a bit before running the fastest last 400m of the race to finish second.  That was an R55-R67 race and he ran up to that performance in the Junior FFA which arguable was run well below its normal standard.

 

 

I accept that cya art is a nice horse and accept the run he got helped,but it was a significant rise in class and my assesment is a signifcant increase in performance.He did after all come clear with the winner,with over 8 lengths back to 3rd.Interesting that the horse who beat him in the video you show,mach quillan and ran that fast time,hasn't won in the 19 months since.

19 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I would have said they bought the horse after Kaikoura and were running tests on it before then.  So at least 2 weeks training and other information longer.  

99% of the time as I've shown with Swayzee the improvements aren't all that significant.  Arguably you can say the same for Cya Art.

With no evidence for performances that based on the horses previous form is attainable.  Do you really think that given all the publicity, innuendo, inference and accusations of wrong doing that Cya Art and Swayzee weren't being closely monitored by the RIB over the last two weeks?  Pre-race blood testing was done and both horses were swabbed.  

grimson would have been here only a matter of days. Telfers would have given him regular vet checks.

You would hope the RIU were monitoring him,but i doubt they would have had access to that.Did they do any out of competition testing on cya art,i highly doubt that. 

like we have discussed previously,i agree with all the experts who have said testing has only very limited success in detecting performance enhancers.

22 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

AM Butt was once too.  They don't have a particularly high UDR the Telfers which would tend to indicate that their premiership win is based on horse numbers.

The telfers did win the last premiership so they are good trainers.

[Chief Stipe]

59 minutes ago, the galah said:

I accept that cya art is a nice horse and accept the run he got helped,but it was a significant rise in class and my assesment is a signifcant increase in performance.

But it wasn't a significant rise in performance and the race was run well below the standard for the race and its class.  I estimate about 30m slower.  

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

grimson would have been here only a matter of days. Telfers would have given him regular vet checks.

How long was Swayzee here for prior to the Cup?  You have no idea about Grimsons travel arrangements and can only speculate.

The Telfers may have given the horse regular vet checks but not many trainers do full blood analysis and adjust feed and supplements relative to those tests.

1 hour ago, the galah said:

You would hope the RIU were monitoring him,but i doubt they would have had access to that.Did they do any out of competition testing on cya art,i highly doubt that. 

Pre-race blood testing was done and the horse was swabbed.  It is a nonsense that there is a mysterious unknown drug (restructured peptide) that is freely available and cannot be detected.

1 hour ago, the galah said:

like we have discussed previously,i agree with all the experts who have said testing has only very limited success in detecting performance enhancers.

What experts?  As I've said you can test for everything and anything especially when you have a reference sample.  As they did in the Fishman case.  @Archie Butterfly is talking nonsense when he posts the Horse and Camel Supplies website as a source of these injectable drugs.  Do you really think these so called experts you mention can't source samples from Horse and Camel Supplies?

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

The telfers did win the last premiership so they are good trainers.

Ben Yole wins the Tasmanian Championship year in year out based on sheer numbers.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

,mach quillan and ran that fast time,hasn't won in the 19 months since.

It wasn't a particularly fast time.  Nor was the Junior FFA.  You don't seen to assess race by race performances.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

grimson would have been here only a matter of days.

So you would have us all believe that Grimson a few days before Tuesdays race sneeks into the country some secret undetectable PED and injects the horse which then performs exceptionally.  Well it doesn't perform exceptionally and certainly not a career best.

If this mysterious PED is so good why didn't Cya Art run a career best performance and actually win the race given the run it had?

[Gammalite]

31 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Ben Yole wins the Tasmanian Championship year in year out based on sheer numbers.

Doesn't Win Any feature races whatsover. Not even in home state Tassie where they go slow.  Doesn't even win any metro races.

Yole is NO comparison to Grimson. Grimson is beating Allstars (now that he took care of Australia's true best in McCarthy and Emma Stewart in the last 2 Interdominions ,.(with battlers that Have not won since )

Grimson not being able to hold the form with them is a TELLING FACTOR. Betterzippit another great example this year  winning the feature $1,000,000 race in the west , then What ??

[Gammalite]

30 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So you would have us all believe that Grimson a few days before Tuesdays race sneeks into the country some secret undetectable PED and injects the horse which then performs exceptionally.  Well it doesn't perform exceptionally and certainly not a career best.

They were desparate to win the race Chief . (Swayzee that is ) If you can get PED or aids in Aus , can't see why you can't in NZ ? Horse Swayzee went exceptional over 2 miles.

As for Cya Art , *8 lengths clear of 3rd as they ripped home in 26 seconds. The winner is an exceptional colt of Mark Purdons and has won 11 of 13 starts to date.

and Will Be Winning the Blue Riband NZ Derby next month too !! unless GRIMSON starts something in it , he found on the Canterbury backblocks ?? haha😂🤣💰  (a Betterzippit 1/2 brother or something ?) lol ....

[the galah]

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

It wasn't a particularly fast time.  Nor was the Junior FFA.  You don't seen to assess race by race performances.

Actually,i can tell tell you running 2600m in 3.10 is very fast.

Also its because i assess race by race that i notice performance changes. That is my strong suit. My ability to do so accurately is what i base everything i say on.

59 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

 @Archie Butterfly is talking nonsense when he posts the Horse and Camel Supplies website as a source of these injectable drugs.  Do you really think these so called experts you mention can't source samples from Horse and Camel Supplies?

As to your reference to you believing horses not being given the same performance enhancers as camels. Well i don't know what archie butterfly is saying and who his sources are.

But i do know there was a proven link in the USA case involving the vet,seth fishman, suppliying many of the jailed horse trainers and also supplying the camel racers.

It came out in that case that Fishman,boasted to some trainers that he supplied the likes of sheik mohammed al maktoum.Isn't he the glodolphin man in australia?Fishman even sought permission ,after being indicted ,to go to dubai to treat the camels.He even gained the support of the United Arab Emarati government,dubai equine and dubai camel to try and have products seized returned.Fishman said he should be able to continue because the customers were outside the USA. His case failed.

It was also revealed that in 2011 he had used those same connections to call in political favours to have an investigation into him stopped.It should be remembered that his large scale horse /camel doping had gone on for 20 years.

So its certainly not a strecth in my opinion ,for anyone to say that the products used on camels are also used on horses. After all,that is what the USA case proved was happening.And after all,previous testing couldn't pick that up.

[Chief Stipe]

20 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

They were desparate to win the race Chief . (Swayzee that is ) If you can get PED or aids in Aus , can't see why you can't in NZ ? Horse Swayzee went exceptional over 2 miles.

Really?  Where do you get these so called PED's?  

Swayzee has always been an exceptional horse.  Running 1.54 in its first race as a 2yr old is top drawer.  In my opinion he was poorly trained until Grimson got him.

[Chief Stipe]

15 minutes ago, the galah said:

Actually,i can tell tell you running 2600m in 3.10 is very fast.

You're behind the times Galah.  You probably thought they'd never break 4 minutes for 3200m.

The record is 3:05 for 2600m or about 60 to 70 metres faster than 3:10.

[Chief Stipe]

30 minutes ago, the galah said:

So its certainly not a strecth in my opinion ,for anyone to say that the products used on camels are also used on horses.

So you are an expert on analysing camel racing performance as well?

[Gammalite]

26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Really?  Where do you get these so called PED's? 

Well i've got mine in my water bottle chief 😂😎

 

26 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

In my opinion he was poorly trained until Grimson got him.

Tim Butt is pretty good trainer . Had cup class horses for decades. What about the trainers of all the others ? Betterzippit trainer couldn't win Manawatu. suddenly beats some of the very best in Australia at Gloucester Park . 

 

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So you are an expert on analysing camel racing performance as well?

Hope that's not like 'elephant' Juice in action...   that was scary. hope Camel Juice isn't going do be the next big thing for the horse . might come as sugar cubes. 😂 One Hump or 2 ?🤣

 

[Chief Stipe]

56 minutes ago, the galah said:

sheik mohammed al maktoum.Isn't he the glodolphin man in australia?

Geez the conspiracy gets even better!  Godolphin is in on it.

[the galah]

27 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

So you are an expert on analysing camel racing performance as well?

i did read once that camels can close their nostrils to keep out the sand if caught in a sandstorm.And that they don't sink in the sand because they have wider feet sort of shaped like a snowshoe. But don't know what to look for in a racing camel.Obviously any camel with j grimson training would be the one i put my money on.

[Gammalite]

14 minutes ago, the galah said:

camels can close their nostrils to keep out the sand if caught in a sandstorm

In the Big Dominion Trot Mark didn't bother with those silly Nasal strips to pull the horses nostrils open with OSCAR B.  Was a Bit unusual as Allstars normally use them .

And he (Oscar Bonevena)  won real easy !!!  Smokin Bandar trainer (and Herlihy with BOLT for Brilliance) used the stupid things and were well beat in the placings.  You can see them in the photo below.  Just Shows you don't need em' . wish they were banned like at the gallops. Horses look silly with them on 😁 

Poor old RESOLVE not looking is best in the 'Deadpool' outfit running 3rd either .😂