Inca Over

[the galah]

10 hours ago, Nowornever said:

And round and round the merry go round we go.  They still not dealing with it! There will be another operation inca and you will still be saying the same thing next time around.

I don't see there being a need for another operation inca currently and think as long as the RIU are given the resources to properly police the industry and have the backbone to do so,there there should be no need for a future operation inca.

Any future dishonest activity should be policed within the industry and each and every time something is uncovered, the industries administrative leaders,including the horsemmans association should come out and condem dishonest activity,even if it involves one of them members.

I think thats the way it should be.

[Gammalite]

Video surveillance and stable raids etc aren't that great for proving anything. Although it worked for case against Darren Weir i spose.

As far as race -fixing goes ... what's it all about?? . it's about money. There's a money trail through betting agencies. Often in harness racing a low class event to avoid any runners accidently beating the sting /fix .  2 or more runners are involved . Most of the evidence is in the actual 'race video' . If Stewards don't make a case for 'running and handling' or 'not driving the best of horses ability' then usually the race just passes by and no-one notices. I would say about 1 in a 100 races i watch have 'something' going on, a little aiding and abetting lol 😂 . Jockeys are more clever these days and get family members to put the bets on , and often they will know who's doing what. esp Sydney racing. the 'Extra' betting shows up more at the trots as smaller pools lol.  

The Bets are the REAL evidence. match Fixing is done so the players benefit financially. One of the best Traner/Drivers in Queensland did 2 years out recently when a disgraced disqualified ex Trainer wanted to put 3G on one of his runners. All Shane did (while driving the fav in a race) was have to give the lead to an opponent , which he did .. and that horse won .  

INCA should of had the evidence immeadiately , if their was a case to answer . Betting and race video. It's No good interviewing anyone. People Lie through their teeth when dis-honesty is involved. 

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

I don't see there being a need for another operation inca currently and think as long as the RIU are given the resources to properly police the industry and have the backbone to do so,there there should be no need for a future operation inca.

Any future dishonest activity should be policed within the industry and each and every time something is uncovered, the industries administrative leaders,including the horsemmans association should come out and condem dishonest activity,even if it involves one of them members.

I think thats the way it should be.

LOL Isn't that what was happening?  All INCA found was nothing other than recreational drug use which is rampant in society anyway!

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

INCA should of had the evidence immeadiately , if their was a case to answer . Betting and race video. It's No good interviewing anyone. People Lie through their teeth when dis-honesty is involved. 

Precisely.  They couldn't find any financial gain that ran into the thousands let alone 100's.  You can understand match fixing in Cricket where there are billions in the pools but a harness race at a provincial meeting in NZ?

[cyclops]

Newspaper item says that it understands (quote)  a large part of at least one defendant’s legal bill was fighting to stop the Racing Integrity Board gaining access to the police evidence which may have led to prosecutions under the rules of racing , for which the penalties including lengthy bans can be severe(unquote)

Perhaps there exists some fine legal principles (read- dancing on the head of a pin?) but surely if abovementioned “fighting” created legal invoices for defendand/s to meet due to his/her wishing camouflage their position then those invoices are entirely of defendant/s creation 

[Spatchcock]

24 minutes ago, cyclops said:

Newspaper item says that it understands (quote)  a large part of at least one defendant’s legal bill was fighting to stop the Racing Integrity Board gaining access to the police evidence which may have led to prosecutions under the rules of racing , for which the penalties including lengthy bans can be severe(unquote)

Perhaps there exists some fine legal principles (read- dancing on the head of a pin?) but surely if abovementioned “fighting” created legal invoices for defendand/s to meet due to his/her wishing camouflage their position then those invoices are entirely of defendant/s creation 

That is accurate. A lot of the last few years was fighting to prevent the RIB being able to use the recorded conversations/transcripts to prosecute under the Rules of Racing. 

You can draw your own conclusions from that.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Spatchcock

[the galah]

Inca has obviously significantly contributed to industry participants awareness of the possible consequences of their actions. Theres no longer an excuse of ignorance and complacency.

As i have said in the past,its relatively easy to undersatnd how people who have spent years in an industry watching people and what they do and see rule breaking behaviour that is viewed as acceptable or not policed;then its just natural to think its an unwritten rule, that they could do the same.Thats why i believe everyone caught in operation inca can lay some of the blame at the feet of those from prior decades who did the same things without consequences and the officials at the time that turned a blind eye to such things,depending on your status in the  industry  or your connections.

And also i think its time they had some guildlines as to pathways back into the industry for people outed.There should be some sort of steps people can do to show they are no longer a risk of offending.It obviously would mean more official oversight to satisfy everyone,paid for by those concerned.

The pathway back into the industry thing can't be about who your contacts are,there has to be a pathway where everyone in that situation is treated the same. There should also be something like a 3 strke rule introduced where deliberate,(not mistaken) actions make it clear the consquences to everyone.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Inca has obviously significantly contributed to industry participants awareness of the possible consequences of their actions. Theres no longer an excuse of ignorance and complacency.

As i have said in the past,its relatively easy to undersatnd how people who have spent years in an industry watching people and what they do and see rule breaking behaviour that is viewed as acceptable or not policed;then its just natural to think its an unwritten rule, that they could do the same.Thats why i believe everyone caught in operation inca can lay some of the blame at the feet of those from prior decades who did the same things without consequences and the officials at the time that turned a blind eye to such things,depending on your status in the  industry  or your connections.

And also i think its time they had some guildlines as to pathways back into the industry for people outed.There should be some sort of steps people can do to show they are no longer a risk of offending.It obviously would mean more official oversight to satisfy everyone,paid for by those concerned.

The pathway back into the industry thing can't be about who your contacts are,there has to be a pathway where everyone in that situation is treated the same. There should also be something like a 3 strke rule introduced where deliberate,(not mistaken) actions make it clear the consquences to everyone.

Crap

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Inca has obviously significantly contributed to industry participants awareness of the possible consequences of their actions. Theres no longer an excuse of ignorance and complacency.

What consequences?  5 years of legal wrangling and no conviction.  Do you think most at the coal face in the industry feel aggrieved by any chance?

Do you think there is a climate of mistrust and less cooperation?  Do you think that those that legalled up have passed on their experiences?

Harness is a close knot community.  They may be competitors on the track but they still have beer afterwards.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

As i have said in the past,its relatively easy to undersatnd how people who have spent years in an industry watching people and what they do and see rule breaking behaviour that is viewed as acceptable or not policed;then its just natural to think its an unwritten rule, that they could do the same.Thats why i believe everyone caught in operation inca can lay some of the blame at the feet of those from prior decades who did the same things without consequences and the officials at the time that turned a blind eye to such things,depending on your status in the  industry  or your connections

But the assumption is that others are breaking the rules.  

A lot of that assumption comes from envy.  "They must be cheating because they're always winning"!

 

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

But the assumption is that others are breaking the rules.  

A lot of that assumption comes from envy.  "They must be cheating because they're always winning"!

 

Envy. you always throw that in when people comment  about stables that are always winning on the big days.

Are you channeling mick guerin or john curtin.

Edited November 30, 2023 by the galah

[Brodie]

Inca will go down in the annals of harness history in NZ along with the Blue Magic Saga, as a very sad time!

What it does is puts a black mark against harness racing and we certainly do not need the very bad publicity that the poor media reporters continue to hammer home to everyone!

MVB and his understudy Sherwood delighted in continually bringing up everything to do with Inca, and anyone reading it would think the harness industry was crooked!

Mountain out of a Molehill was made by the RIB and personally think those involved in prosecuting and those Ratting on fellow harness participants should hang their heads in shame!!

Yes life goes on for most, but the unfortunate tarnished reputations and financial costs to those mixed up in Operation Inca will never be the same!!!

We can only hope that this BS doesnt happen again, unless there is proven evidence!

[the galah]

42 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Mountain out of a Molehill was made by the RIB and personally think those involved in prosecuting and those Ratting on fellow harness participants should hang their heads in shame!!

Yes life goes on for most, but the unfortunate tarnished reputations and financial costs to those mixed up in Operation Inca will never be the same!!!

We can only hope that this BS doesnt happen again, unless there is proven evidence!

when you are saying "ratting on". No idea who you mean but it sounds like your suggesting someone who may have evidence that someone else may be doping a horse or even maybe race fixing,should just keep it to themselves.Forget the victims,keep the no ratting code.

So can they mention it to their mates down at the pub,or do you think that shouldn't be allowed?

your statement reminds me of the recent live baiting in the greyhound industry. You would have been proud of all those who worked at the cole kennels who kept their mouths shut and allowed that pratice to continue and for no convictions.

And what about when the media that got hold of that story and made such a big thing out of live baiting being a known practice and industry people looking the other way. Do you blame the media for that?Just because it contributed to an inquiry into whether greyhounds should even have an industry,at least they kept there mouths shut i suppose.

my point is what a silly thing for you to say. 

As to tarnished reputations. I don't agree with that either . Who thinks Inca has tarnished the reputations of the drivers and trainers who were caught up with inca and ended up getting off.I haven't met anyone who does, so i think its an exaggeration to say that.

Edited November 30, 2023 by the galah

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Brodie said:

What it does is puts a black mark against harness racing and we certainly do not need the very bad publicity that the poor media reporters continue to hammer home to everyone!

MVB and his understudy Sherwood delighted in continually bringing up everything to do with Inca, and anyone reading it would think the harness industry was crooked!

I think the mark would of been Very Black indeed if they convicted a swag of the professional Nz harness racing folk. Probably better they didn't . now it can fade away quietly.

Funnily enough ,  even though many race fixers are convicted in Australia , no -one takes much notice as the reputation for 'red hots' is already there lol 😆 .. the persons do their time and then get re-licensed and then get on with it. positive swabs are more of a problem as the offenders are like drug Addicts and keep re-offending lol.... no INCA needed but maybe we need......... Oz Harness Re-Hab ???😂

[Gammalite]

40 minutes ago, the galah said:

As to tarnished reputations. I don't agree with that either . Who thinks Inca has tarnished the reputations of the drivers and trainers who were caught up with inca and ended up getting off.I haven't met anyone who does, so i think its an exaggeration to say that.

absolutely ..Surely the only way you are tarnished is if found guilty and convicted. the horsepeoples reputation as a good horseperson might not be damaged anyway.

Mark Pitt is constantly winning Big races driving for Emma Stewart these days , and had a moment of madness at Cobram with another fine horseman , Nathan Jack . who is back doing well too. i think even though they were guilty and did time (did the crime >>  paid with some time DQ ) now back winning races (as is Shane Graham in Queensland ) and all the tarnish ??? well just a thing of the past .. more of a blemish... only just ? 😆

so the kiwis are effected mentally for life ? Surely Not ???  they weren't named officially , and were found Not guilty , and continued training/driving right through the 5 years ?? No Problem then for anyone . wouldn't even register a blip on the blemish meter lol...😂  

[Brodie]

9 hours ago, Gammalite said:

absolutely ..Surely the only way you are tarnished is if found guilty and convicted. the horsepeoples reputation as a good horseperson might not be damaged anyway.

Mark Pitt is constantly winning Big races driving for Emma Stewart these days , and had a moment of madness at Cobram with another fine horseman , Nathan Jack . who is back doing well too. i think even though they were guilty and did time (did the crime >>  paid with some time DQ ) now back winning races (as is Shane Graham in Queensland ) and all the tarnish ??? well just a thing of the past .. more of a blemish... only just ? 😆

so the kiwis are effected mentally for life ? Surely Not ???  they weren't named officially , and were found Not guilty , and continued training/driving right through the 5 years ?? No Problem then for anyone . wouldn't even register a blip on the blemish meter lol...😂  

It was psychologically detrimental to the health and wellbeing having the charges against them.

The financial costs for legal costs and pressure on the relationships will never be recovered by those affected!

It is just not right for people to be accused of something and have to bear the brunt of this when there is no case to answer.

Just so easy to do this, we see it in other instances as well and you are classed as guilty and have to prove you are innocent, and at huge financial and emotional cost.

 

[Brodie]

10 hours ago, the galah said:

when you are saying "ratting on". No idea who you mean but it sounds like your suggesting someone who may have evidence that someone else may be doping a horse or even maybe race fixing,should just keep it to themselves.Forget the victims,keep the no ratting code.

So can they mention it to their mates down at the pub,or do you think that shouldn't be allowed?

your statement reminds me of the recent live baiting in the greyhound industry. You would have been proud of all those who worked at the cole kennels who kept their mouths shut and allowed that pratice to continue and for no convictions.

And what about when the media that got hold of that story and made such a big thing out of live baiting being a known practice and industry people looking the other way. Do you blame the media for that?Just because it contributed to an inquiry into whether greyhounds should even have an industry,at least they kept there mouths shut i suppose.

my point is what a silly thing for you to say. 

As to tarnished reputations. I don't agree with that either . Who thinks Inca has tarnished the reputations of the drivers and trainers who were caught up with inca and ended up getting off.I haven't met anyone who does, so i think its an exaggeration to say that.

I feel the Live Baiting with the dogs is totally different as that could be proven.

The Inca case was so flimsy and has been proven by the charges being dropped.

The RIB should’ve done their proper diligence before getting the police to do the raids etc. 

Keystone Cops!

Edited November 30, 2023 by Brodie

[the galah]

50 minutes ago, Brodie said:

I feel the Live Baiting with the dogs is totally different as that could be proven.

The Inca case was so flimsy and has been proven by the charges being dropped.

The RIB should’ve done their proper diligence before getting the police to do the raids etc. 

Keystone Cops!

The similarities were obvious.

After a very long drawn out court process the multiple live baiting charges were dropped because the spca in the end felt the evidence they had did not meet the high threshold to attain a conviction.

You should read the many published media stories and the press statements released by the spca.

One talked about the huge finanical and emotional harm it had done to Cole.

He got off becasue one key witness withdrew his statement,and anothers timeline wasn't accurate as cole was in hospital. 

The  spca said one of the most disappointing things was,although they had evidence, they had approached all past and present staff at the time the live baiting was allefged to have occured,but no more would come forward.

So the no ratting thing that you like to see was exactly what occured there despite them having pictures and former employees quoted in the media saying it happened weekly when they worked there.

Are you saying the SPCA are keystone cops because they failed to get  a conviction?.

Edited November 30, 2023 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

23 minutes ago, the galah said:

Are you saying the SPCA are keystone cops because they failed to get  a conviction?.

No obviously not as they had the sense to recognise that their evidence was insufficient.  They didn't push the Police to lay charges either!

[Assange]

15 hours ago, Brodie said:

Inca will go down in the annals of harness history in NZ along with the Blue Magic Saga, as a very sad time!

What it does is puts a black mark against harness racing and we certainly do not need the very bad publicity that the poor media reporters continue to hammer home to everyone!

MVB and his understudy Sherwood delighted in continually bringing up everything to do with Inca, and anyone reading it would think the harness industry was crooked!

Mountain out of a Molehill was made by the RIB and personally think those involved in prosecuting and those Ratting on fellow harness participants should hang their heads in shame!!

Yes life goes on for most, but the unfortunate tarnished reputations and financial costs to those mixed up in Operation Inca will never be the same!!!

We can only hope that this BS doesnt happen again, unless there is proven evidence!

Inca will have a long lasting effect. Having worked with mostly non-racing people, I can tell you their opinion of the racing industry is not very good. Any concerns about possible race fixing should have been dealt with immediately by the RIU. Instead it was left to fester. Shame on them.

[Nowornever]

On 30/11/2023 at 9:33 AM, the galah said:

properly police the industry and have the backbone to do so

That's just my point. The race to race stipes reports  raise more questions than answers half the time. Favourites driven to have no hope in winning but half baked excuses why they were not put in the race are accepted almost every meeting. Inconsistencies with inquiries where some get relegated or fined and others do not for the same offence. Questions asked as why horses perform out of the blue are a complete waste of time and mostly the answer is obvious and does not need questioning while others that look much more suspicious are not asked at all. I have no confidence in this area of the industry at all.

[the galah]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

No obviously not as they had the sense to recognise that their evidence was insufficient.  They didn't push the Police to lay charges either!

The spca did a 21 month investigation before laying charges,then it was about a year after that that they decided not to proceed for the reasons i stated earlier.The police leave the policing of cruelty to animals to the spca.It had nothing to do with the police from what i have read.

The main point i was making was you need honest people to come forward if they see what they believe to be major dishonesty which creates victims,whether they be people or animals.Whether what they thought was accurate,at least they were trying to do the right thing. 

Calling someone a rat infers betrayal,but there was no betrayal in the inca cases that i can see. Thats why i believe brodies comments were more an emotional reaction than a logical one. I understand people wanting to stand up for there mates,but you still have to think logically or it does no good.

Edited December 1, 2023 by the galah

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Assange said:

Inca will have a long lasting effect. Having worked with mostly non-racing people, I can tell you their opinion of the racing industry is not very good. Any concerns about possible race fixing should have been dealt with immediately by the RIU. Instead it was left to fester. Shame on them.

I agree with some of what you have said.

But i think in reality if you are going to say that,then you also need to be saying the RIU need to be resourced better to properly investigate such things.

Its just logic. People on here seem to be arguing that they want the RIU to do the policing(which i agree with),but then in the next breath they infer they should have their funding cut and some staff should be moved on.

When you think about it,people saying that don't make much sense to me.

i'm no apologist for the riu. I actually contributed and started threads at the time of the johnny white drive(m anderson),the dexter dunn drive on the g anderson horse at forbury,the nigel mcgrath drive and  one other which were later to be revealed to have been subjects of investigation. My points back then was where is the proper oversightand penalties for questionable driving and why were high profile people seemingly given different treatment.

But i think when you look back,maybe part of the reason was because the riu was aware of the poilce investigation and felt it best to leave it to them.we can only guess.

I've also said that i believed they should look into the palmerston north meetings,but it was my opinion that they actually targeted the wrong people and should have been looking more into those from the north island.

Edited December 1, 2023 by the galah

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Nowornever said:

That's just my point. The race to race stipes reports  raise more questions than answers half the time. Favourites driven to have no hope in winning but half baked excuses why they were not put in the race are accepted almost every meeting. Inconsistencies with inquiries where some get relegated or fined and others do not for the same offence. Questions asked as why horses perform out of the blue are a complete waste of time and mostly the answer is obvious and does not need questioning while others that look much more suspicious are not asked at all. I have no confidence in this area of the industry at all.

I get what your saying,but in my opinion i  think things are very honest at the moment myself. I think almost everyone is doing their best to do the right thing whether they be drivers or officaldom.

I think the drive we talked about of b hackett that we both commented on was an good example of what you shave said above,but thats auckland and is part of why they are going backwards from a turnover perspective. 

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Nowornever said:

That's just my point. The race to race stipes reports  raise more questions than answers half the time. Favourites driven to have no hope in winning but half baked excuses why they were not put in the race are accepted almost every meeting. Inconsistencies with inquiries where some get relegated or fined and others do not for the same offence. Questions asked as why horses perform out of the blue are a complete waste of time and mostly the answer is obvious and does not need questioning while others that look much more suspicious are not asked at all. I have no confidence in this area of the industry at all.

And the only response the RIB have is to get warrants to wire tap.  Why not grill the driver's every race that looks suspect?  Plus look at betting records.  Apparently they've hired someone to work full time to monitor betting anomalies why not set up AI systems to alert real time?

Not that race fixing in NZ on a Harness race in NZ is highly profitable nor worth the effort.