Chief Stipe Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 The Wellesley Stakes (L) has only 6 nominations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said: The Wellesley Stakes (L) has only 6 nominations. 7 starters last year and the year before. Nobody cares, so long as the Karaka Millions night is the showcase of NZracing and is still a reliable way to get suckers to buy shares in overpriced yearlings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 52 minutes ago, Huey said: 7 starters last year and the year before. Nobody cares, so long as the Karaka Millions night is the showcase of NZracing and is still a reliable way to get suckers to buy shares in overpriced yearlings. Why are they overpriced? Isn't the price decided by the market by auction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomed Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 The most interesting thing is only one CD horse. I can't imagine all the other CD 2yos are being aimed at Karaka. Perhaps it is more an indication of major problems in the CD. There have been a lot of meetings there with tiny fields for big stakes over recent months. Many years ago you might have had a southern 2yo turn up at Trentham in January. I recall the great southern 2yo Straight Line racing in the Magic Millions at Trentham in January after winning 5 in a row in the SI. You won't get a southern 2yo winning 5 in a row by January these days. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingman Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 The distortion has been caused by the Northern clubs getting their own way and those who create/adjust the racing 'Calendar' either ignoring or not understanding the enormity of the problems the current calendar continues to create. Do they have any understanding of the history of many of our races? The Wellesley (used to be) the first decent (listed) race for early 2yo in October at Trentham. I fondly recall when I was in the UK two decades ago how presenters would proudly announce the 30th/40th renewal of a time honoured race. Same race,same place. In racing regardless of the black type status one must get the pattern correct. Karaka has grown into a mighty beast without any real thought to the consequences prior to, or after the grand event. This is a forum with many analytical minds so I will throw out a few examples of what I consider positive change for consideration. I am moving away briefly from the 2yo issue. Move 1000/2000 guineas to Trentham in December, less early pressure and trainers with the good ones can better prepare for Karaka. Move Oaks to Riccarton in March. Will be easier for the classier types to fly out to Sydney for AJC Oaks. Put the Auckland cup back where it belongs on New Years Day and move the NZ cup to Oaks day at Riccarton. As for this weeks Wellesley that needs to be one week earlier, leaving 3 weeks lead up to.. KARAKA...getting bigger and better. South Island 2yo racing would literally take off late summer as NZ cup and Oaks at Riccarton would create alternative opportunity to Awapuni's Sires Produce. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huey Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 One of the problems is the domineering status of one particular stable on the 2yo scene in NZ , that's also reflected on the Karaka Million night which is a made to order event for them and thus creates a massive distortion in the calendar. Any stable who can spend $3.5m on 5 yearlings on the GC and bring them back to NZ to dominate the local scene with those speedy Aus types is hardly going to fail much. I think many stables just go what's the point in trying to get a 2yo when you're competing with that ! Of course you get fanboys like CS who sing the praises & who blame the administrators on this one ,but far from the case in the 2yo ranks. Point is you just can't compete with that sort of firepower in the 2yo ranks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 8 minutes ago, Huey said: Any stable who can spend $3.5m on 5 yearlings on the GC and bring them back to NZ to dominate the local scene with those speedy Aus types is hardly going to fail much. But those horses are not eligible for the Karaka Millions. The AUD$1.3m colt just purchased will race out of Cranbourne. All said and done there is nothing stopping any other stable spending similar amounts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 10 minutes ago, Huey said: Of course you get fanboys like CS who sing the praises & who blame the administrators on this one ,but far from the case in the 2yo ranks. Yes I do blame the administrators particularly those planning the pattern and doing the programming. How can it be Te Akau's fault because they have a very successful model of operation. @Wingman offered a simple change to attract more to the Wellesley - why not hold it a week earlier so the winner could aim for the Karaka? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 9 Author Share Posted January 9 37 minutes ago, Huey said: One of the problems is the domineering status of one particular stable on the 2yo scene in NZ , Thinking about your statemen @Huey a bit more - how is it a problem? Remove Te Akau and then probably the second stable if you are in tall poppy slaying mode from NZ and what does the industry have? Would you prefer that they operated only in OZ in order to let the mediocre rise another level? @holy ravioli would probably agree with you on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 16 hours ago, Wingman said: The distortion has been caused by the Northern clubs getting their own way and those who create/adjust the racing 'Calendar' either ignoring or not understanding the enormity of the problems the current calendar continues to create. Do they have any understanding of the history of many of our races? The Wellesley (used to be) the first decent (listed) race for early 2yo in October at Trentham. I fondly recall when I was in the UK two decades ago how presenters would proudly announce the 30th/40th renewal of a time honoured race. Same race,same place. In racing regardless of the black type status one must get the pattern correct. Karaka has grown into a mighty beast without any real thought to the consequences prior to, or after the grand event. This is a forum with many analytical minds so I will throw out a few examples of what I consider positive change for consideration. I am moving away briefly from the 2yo issue. Move 1000/2000 guineas to Trentham in December, less early pressure and trainers with the good ones can better prepare for Karaka. Move Oaks to Riccarton in March. Will be easier for the classier types to fly out to Sydney for AJC Oaks. Put the Auckland cup back where it belongs on New Years Day and move the NZ cup to Oaks day at Riccarton. As for this weeks Wellesley that needs to be one week earlier, leaving 3 weeks lead up to.. KARAKA...getting bigger and better. South Island 2yo racing would literally take off late summer as NZ cup and Oaks at Riccarton would create alternative opportunity to Awapuni's Sires Produce. I'd rather see the Wellesley back where it was. Nevertheless, ten points and a chocolate fish for coming up with some fresh ideas. I'm not saying I agree with all the placements, but, bloody hell, some more innovative thought is exactly what we need. I get a fair bit of stick from a certain quarter for being critical of programming, esp here in the south. It's not a job I consider I'd be very good at - given that the whole thing has to mesh comfortably with northern racing and also Australian. But I do know several who would be VERY good indeed. Would they bother? Probably not, given the prevailing attitude at head office. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curious Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 9 minutes ago, Freda said: It's not a job I consider I'd be very good at - given that the whole thing has to mesh comfortably with northern racing and also Australian. I think that's partly a structural issue because you have regional programming committees programming only for their region. There should be a national pprogramming coordinator on those committees or similar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 57 minutes ago, Freda said: get a fair bit of stick from a certain quarter for being critical of programming, esp here in the south. It's not a job I consider I'd be very good at - given that the whole thing has to mesh comfortably with northern racing and also Australian. But I do know several who would be VERY good indeed. Would they bother? Probably not, given the prevailing attitude at head office. I can guess who and I've been consistently critical of the committee members. But then the defenders pipe in and get all parochial and defensive. I'm over that BS. Why can't there be open debate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 5 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Thinking about your statemen @Huey a bit more - how is it a problem? Remove Te Akau and then probably the second stable if you are in tall poppy slaying mode from NZ and what does the industry have? Would you prefer that they operated only in OZ in order to let the mediocre rise another level? @holy ravioli would probably agree with you on that. God knows how you arrive at your conclusions. Anyway you are vehemently opposed to concepts like the Karaka Millions....aren't...you?🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 39 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: God knows how you arrive at your conclusions. Anyway you are vehemently opposed to concepts like the Karaka Millions....aren't...you?🙄 Not vehemently opposed. However these sweepstake and novelty races don't support the breeding of good horses. Black type still matters throughout the world. V'landys, Harvey and Vela are actually cutting their feet off. Anything that prevents the best from winning the most is detrimental to the breed. Arguably the best 2yr olds in NZ won't be at Karaka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said: Not vehemently opposed. However these sweepstake and novelty races don't support the breeding of good horses. Black type still matters throughout the world. V'landys, Harvey and Vela are actually cutting their feet off. Anything that prevents the best from winning the most is detrimental to the breed. Arguably the best 2yr olds in NZ won't be at Karaka. But,but...'Big Dave'...uses their success at Karaka Millions to get 'investors' involved! Whats the best 2 y.o in NZ in your opinion? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 The 'pattern' is everything. While the glitzy day out is great for everyone involved - as the Chief has already stated, we need all sorts of racedays - champers and canapes, BBQ and beer - to appeal to a wide cross-section of the public. But having a high-staked meeting featuring a number of Aus-bred youngsters isn't going to do much for our breeding industry. Black type is what matters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freda Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 4 hours ago, curious said: I think that's partly a structural issue because you have regional programming committees programming only for their region. There should be a national pprogramming coordinator on those committees or similar. I think there are NZTR representatives at these meetings. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 1 hour ago, holy ravioli said: But,but...'Big Dave'...uses their success at Karaka Millions to get 'investors' involved! Whats the best 2 y.o in NZ in your opinion? So 'Big Dave' builds off his success in the richest 2yr old race in NZ? Mmmmm that's a novel concept. Who would sell off failure? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 25 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: So 'Big Dave' builds off his success in the richest 2yr old race in NZ? Mmmmm that's a novel concept. Who would sell off failure? Make up your mind!You applaud...achievement don't you? And the best 2 y.o IYO?You gunshy...now.😉 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 4 minutes ago, holy ravioli said: Make up your mind!You applaud...achievement don't you? And the best 2 y.o IYO?You gunshy...now.😉 Can you rewrite that post in some form of coherency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomed Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: Not vehemently opposed. However these sweepstake and novelty races don't support the breeding of good horses. Black type still matters throughout the world. V'landys, Harvey and Vela are actually cutting their feet off. Anything that prevents the best from winning the most is detrimental to the breed. Arguably the best 2yr olds in NZ won't be at Karaka. You may well find this year that the best 2yos and 3yos aren't eligible for Karaka, which in a sense is good because it should mean the Group race system prevails over the novelty/gimmick race concept. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 18 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said: Can you rewrite that post in some form of coherency? Who do you think is the best 2 y.o in NZ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doomed Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 I totally struggle with the concept of this gimmick race at Trentham that is worth $50,000 more than the Wgtn Cup. You have staying maidens desperate to win an $18,500 race at Wanganui to qualify for a race worth more than the Wgtn Cup. I wonder how many members of the public are excited by that race or have any idea how it works. I don't have the faintest idea how it works, but obviously win a stayers maiden and you are in. How bloody stupid. Meanwhile we have $50,000 open races regularly going around with 6 starters. There is one contributor on here who thinks the industry is being run expertly run, but in my view it has never been managed more poorly, and the money that is being wasted is unbelievable. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted January 10 Author Share Posted January 10 1 hour ago, holy ravioli said: Who do you think is the best 2 y.o in NZ? I said arguably the best 2yr olds in NZ won't be at Karaka. A it like the best sprinter in Australia wasn't at The Everest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holy ravioli Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 10 hours ago, Chief Stipe said: I said arguably the best 2yr olds in NZ won't be at Karaka. A it like the best sprinter in Australia wasn't at The Everest. Can't you answer the question? I know you're a good judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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