Who's Yankiwi?

[Yankiwi]

How about I fill you in a bit more about who Yankiwi is.

My name is Charles & I was born and raised in Northeast USA.

The first job I ever had after leaving school in the early 1980's, was at Hinsdale Greyhound Track in New Hampshire. I was what was called a lead-out, which in NZ terms was basically a handler. It was a paid position by the racetrack where 12 lead-outs were employed for each race meeting. There was only 10 minutes or so between each race, so it was rapid fire compared to the NZ pace. While 8 lead-outs were attending to the dogs on the track, the other 4 were starting to get the next 8 dogs ready. When boxing was complete, 4 of the lead-outs ran the track to catch the dogs while the other 4 went back to the kennel to help finish up the next races dogs & those 8 were the next lot on the track.

There were 13 race meeting per week held most of the time with 15 races in each meeting. Both an afternoon and evening program Monday thru Saturday plus an afternoon meeting on a Sunday.

The place was buzzing with activity. Naturally, evenings and weekends were the busiest attendance wise. Prior to all the American Indians opening up gambling casinos on their reservations, it was the place to be to have a punt.

From personal experience, I do know the dogs did fall in the first corner a bit more often than they fall here. The corners were a bit tighter radius which made the front & backstretch longer. I also know that the racing surface was loam, which was probably tilled deeper then here, then rolled & smoothed and felt much softer to walk on then either of the NZ track surfaces I've walked on (Auckland/Cambridge). I've also been to Palmerston North & Wanganui several time, and while walking the track didn't happen for me, I could see from others walking on it that it was firmer than back in the states.

As a lead-out I didn't see what happened to the dogs after we caught them on the track and handed back to their trainer in the catching area. So, injury wise I can't really give an informed comment about any minor/medium injuries. As for more serious injuries, I can give a firsthand account that in my entire time I was employed as a lead-out (a bit less than a year before deciding to move on) I only ever saw 1 dog carried off the track seriously injured (probably a broken hock in hindsight). Other than the one instance, I never saw a dog look obviously injured like it's running on 3 legs that you see in just about every race meeting here (hock/gracilis so on).

I know what has happened in the States to greyhound racing thanks partially to the do-gooders. Another major cause of its demise would be competition for the punting spend from casinos & state lotteries, all things present in NZ.

Here's the old entry to Hinsdale Greyhound Track as looks like today. The track is long gone & Walmart has moved in.

 

Unless you want to see The Warehouse where Hatrick is or a K-Mart where Manukau Stadium is, participants need to demand more from GRNZ. Participants hold the ultimate power. Without their dogs GRNZ has nothing. Hold them to their word. Make them provide safe possible tracks for your dogs to race on.

GRNZ has been the target of the do-gooders here for many years. They're closer now than ever of accomplishing their goal. The casinos, lottery and the pokies in the pubs haven't gone anywhere, they're still competing hard.

GRNZ has plenty of money. They now have 17 publicly known suits in headquarters. They should be trimming the fat and bringing tracks up to an acceptable safety standard with the money, not hiring their mate.

What expertise did she bring to the table? As I understand it, she was some kind of a lawyer & a trackside presenter previously, neither of which have anything to do with running a business. GRNZ have always had a CEO, why did they have the sudden requirement for and for the first time ever a COO? Why was she hired without even listing the job in help wanted ads trying to attract the best possible talent?

Did the participants bark? Well, I didn't hear any barking.

Unless participants use the power that they do have, there will be no more greyhound racing in the next few years.

GRNZ isn't going to fix it. I'm not even sure they have the talent to fix anything.

 

I come to BOAY to point out GRNZ inadequacies. To give participants some of the information they can use to plan their future. I'm not fighting on the do-gooder's side trying to end your livelihood, I'm on your side. I've got no power to make GRNZ sort their shit out. All I can do is come on here & embarrass the shit out of them. Obviously, it works sometimes. Why else would they get in contact with Chief in a huff about whatever I was saying?

I still wonder what the hold-up is with GRNZ. They haven't welcomed the new board member or thanked the voted-out member for their lackluster performance after the last-minute nomination.

Anyways, I know where GRNZ has you all headed. They talk the talk but don't walk the walk. If you can't see it, I suggest you start planning your life without greyhound racing as a part of it.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Yankiwi said:

Why else would they get in contact with Chief in a huff about whatever I was saying?

Where did I ever say they get in a "huff"?  From time to time they have pointed out factual inaccuracies in your posts which to be fair are glaringly obvious anyway.

The irony is of course that you think you are doing a service to the industry but you are actually feeding its demise.

[aquaman]

Was always a fan of American racing Charles, especially their surface's. Most of the racing I refer to was Florida racing. The sand always deep and giving, times slower. 6 dog fields a plus, and a double bunny lure in the middle of the track spread the dogs on the bends, another plus. Alas all gone now in Florida.

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Yankiwi said:

What expertise did she bring to the table? As I understand it, she was some kind of a lawyer & a trackside presenter previously, neither of which have anything to do with running a business.

What did you do other than have in the past led dogs out on a now defunct track?

[Yankiwi]

5 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

The irony is of course that you think you are doing a service to the industry but you are actually feeding its demise.

Feeding its demise by telling the truth?

I don't decide which dog was injured & which one wasn't. I only trawled 6 months' worth data (so far) in Stewards reports to determine how many starters there were, how many injuries were incurred & how long the stand-down was for each dog in each instance. My bad.

On one point, you may be right. GRNZ does not want its participants to know that they have the ultimate power.

 

Maybe I could put a positive spin on the injury problem?

In the first 6 months of the 2023/2024 racing season there were 30 race meetings held with no injuries reported requiring a stand-down. We'll ignore the 486 race meetings that can't make that claim.

[Chief Stipe]

18 minutes ago, Yankiwi said:

Feeding its demise by telling the truth?

But your statistical analysis is full of mistakes and flawed.  Even you have admitted that.

[Chief Stipe]

19 minutes ago, Yankiwi said:

In the first 6 months of the 2023/2024 racing season there were 30 race meetings held with no injuries reported requiring a stand-down. We'll ignore the 486 race meetings that can't make that claim.

Where are your Hinsdale statistics?

[Yankiwi]

41 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

What did you do other than have in the past led dogs out on a now defunct track?

Well, I owned a few racing greyhounds in NZ.

#1 - 11 starts - 3 wins, 3 placings - Severally broke his hock while charging to the lead during his 11th start in Auckland. - Put down.

#2 - 23 starts - 0 wins, 4 placings - Tore a gracilis in first race for me in Auckland - Retired

#3 - 31 starts - 2 wins, 10 placings - Tore a gracilis in 30th start Auckland. 3-month holiday. Tore the other gracilis during a trial Auckland. Retired.

#4 - 13 starts - 0 wins, 2 placings - Tore a gracilis in 13th start Auckland. Retired.

#5 - 9 starts - 1 win, 0 placings - Broke a toe in 9th start Cambridge. Retired.

#6 - Bought & named a pup. Barely qualified in Auckland - 3 starts (in the CD)- 0 wins, 0 placings. Wasn't very interesting in chasing the lure. More fun to run in the back of the pack. Retired.

 

Coming from the land of very few careers ending injuries, it was quite a rude awakening becoming an owner here. I learned my lesson. Never again.

Edited February 1 by Yankiwi

[Yankiwi]

19 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

But your statistical analysis is full of mistakes and flawed.  Even you have admitted that.

I did not admit that.

My data is fine, the initial reporting of the data had an error, which has now been fixed.

[Chief Stipe]

43 minutes ago, Yankiwi said:

I did not admit that.

My data is fine, the initial reporting of the data had an error, which has now been fixed.

But it's not the only error.  Plus your methodology is somewhat flawed.

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Yankiwi said:

Well, I owned a few racing greyhounds in NZ.

#1 - 11 starts - 3 wins, 3 placings - Severally broke his hock while charging to the lead during his 11th start in Auckland. - Put down.

#2 - 23 starts - 0 wins, 4 placings - Tore a gracilis in first race for me in Auckland - Retired

#3 - 31 starts - 2 wins, 10 placings - Tore a gracilis in 30th start Auckland. 3-month holiday. Tore the other gracilis during a trial Auckland. Retired.

#4 - 13 starts - 0 wins, 2 placings - Tore a gracilis in 13th start Auckland. Retired.

#5 - 9 starts - 1 win, 0 placings - Broke a toe in 9th start Cambridge. Retired.

#6 - Bought & named a pup. Barely qualified in Auckland - 3 starts (in the CD)- 0 wins, 0 placings. Wasn't very interesting in chasing the lure. More fun to run in the back of the pack. Retired.

 

Coming from the land of very few careers ending injuries, it was quite a rude awakening becoming an owner here. I learned my lesson. Never again.

A gracillus injury is common and often the result of poor training oor insufficient warm-ups.  Occurs most often between start and top speed.  

It's like a rugby player pulling a hamstring.

[Gammalite]

57 minutes ago, Yankiwi said:

Coming from the land of very few careers ending injuries, it was quite a rude awakening becoming an owner here. I learned my lesson. Never again.

Very sorry for your loss of racing stock to injury Yankeeman. 

Maybe get a pacer ? they race year after year and career ending injury quite rare. 

Might be different with thoroughbreds. 

Your awful injury toll had me looking at the list of stable horses that  trained over a five year period from stables where I participated . They (horses) do get strain on flexor tendons and we tend to rub linament on and/or use poultice occasionally , but of the 4 , I can remember with tendon and suspensory issues , 3 of them continued to race . only one bowed and didn't I can think of (list of about 100 horses) 

Standardbreds race around 30mph compared to the greys and thoroughbreds at 40- 45 mph so are much Less likely to hurt themselves . And it's a LOT of FUN. !!🏆😄 

[Jacob]

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

A gracillus injury is common and often the result of poor training oor insufficient warm-ups.  Occurs most often between start and top speed.  

It's like a rugby player pulling a hamstring.

clearly showing your ignorance here Chief.

Muscle injuries tend to come from shifty surfaces or surfaces where dogs go deep into the track.

Auckland has always had an issue with muscle injuries because of both of the above for example.

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, Jacob said:

clearly showing your ignorance here Chief.

Muscle injuries tend to come from shifty surfaces or surfaces where dogs go deep into the track.

Auckland has always had an issue with muscle injuries because of both of the above for example.

That isn't what I've read in some science papers on the subject.

[BitofaLegend]

7 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

That isn't what I've read in some science papers on the subject.

The same science papers that declared Tralagon j turn track would be the safest in Australia for it to be shut down 4 times in 2 yrs due to too many injuries as a result of the long straight leading into the bends?

Racing, especially greyhound racing is different to other sports like rugby. Dogs are lean racing machines.

Track surface plays a big part in injuries of a dog and unfortunately in NZ, the surfaces for the most part have not been good.

 

 

Edited February 1 by BitofaLegend

[Chief Stipe]

57 minutes ago, BitofaLegend said:

The same science papers that declared Tralagon j turn track would be the safest in Australia for it to be shut down 4 times in 2 yrs due to too many injuries as a result of the long straight leading into the bends?

Racing, especially greyhound racing is different to other sports like rugby. Dogs are lean racing machines.

Track surface plays a big part in injuries of a dog and unfortunately in NZ, the surfaces for the most part have not been good.

 

 

So in Chazza's statistics is there a difference in injury rates between trainers?

[Yankiwi]

16 hours ago, aquaman said:

Was always a fan of American racing Charles, especially their surface's. Most of the racing I refer to was Florida racing. The sand always deep and giving, times slower. 6 dog fields a plus, and a double bunny lure in the middle of the track spread the dogs on the bends, another plus. Alas all gone now in Florida.

Yes John, times were slower (I see this as a good thing).

At Hinsdale the 5/16 mile (503m) races were normally in the 31 second range. Sub 31 was rare.

3/8 mile (603m) races were normally in the 38 to 39 second range.

About track surfaces, how about this little beauty from 2007 during a late spring snowstorm, some 25 years or so after I had worked there.

 

When is was built, Hinsdale installed the states first heated track, making it a truly "all weather" racing surface. Their design went on to be copied by several tracks in cold weather climates with great success.

With cold weather like that, it's amazing any greyhounds made it around the track without tearing a gracilis, right Chief?

 

[Yankiwi]

2 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

So in Chazza's statistics is there a difference in injury rates between trainers?

That data hasn't been retrieved. Even if it had been, you'd simply discredit it & move the goal post somewhere else.

Besides, GRNZ's KPI's are a combination of all starters, not those from what might be from a safe trainer & what might be a dangerous trainer.

Where's GRNZ's 100% correct & reliable data for injuries on an individual track basis?

 

[Chief Stipe]

12 minutes ago, Yankiwi said:

That data hasn't been retrieved. Even if it had been, you'd simply discredit it & move the goal post somewhere else.

Besides, GRNZ's KPI's are a combination of all starters, not those from what might be from a safe trainer & what might be a dangerous trainer.

Where's GRNZ's 100% correct & reliable data for injuries on an individual track basis?

 

So you are not interested in all the variables?  Going by your answer and the tenor of your posts in general your issue is more with GRNZ than finding the root causes of your assessed injury rates.

[aquaman]

2 hours ago, Yankiwi said:

Yes John, times were slower (I see this as a good thing).

At Hinsdale the 5/16 mile (503m) races were normally in the 31 second range. Sub 31 was rare.

3/8 mile (603m) races were normally in the 38 to 39 second range.

About track surfaces, how about this little beauty from 2007 during a late spring snowstorm, some 25 years or so after I had worked there.

 

When is was built, Hinsdale installed the states first heated track, making it a truly "all weather" racing surface. Their design went on to be copied by several tracks in cold weather climates with great success.

With cold weather like that, it's amazing any greyhounds made it around the track without tearing a gracilis, right Chief?

 

Enjoyed the video Yankiwi, short run to the 1st bend, like the distance. Yes I agree on slowing down the times. Southland and now finished Forbury Park were the best two surface's for slowing them down in my opinion. Goodluck with your debate with the Chief, you'll need it.

[Yankiwi]

17 hours ago, Yankiwi said:

#1 - 11 starts - 3 wins, 3 placings - Severally broke his hock while charging to the lead during his 11th start in Auckland. - Put down.

Here's the moment that changed everything for my first boy (#7).

 

No leg interference from any of the other dogs.

Only the pressure that he was applying to the racing surface with some added lateral forces pushing him away from the rail because 3 dogs couldn't fit into a racing lane that's only 1 dog wide with the lure being so close to the running rail.

 

This is the first time I've spoken out about this personal experience on any public forum.

That said, you've heard me go on & on about something that happened in the same race just a fraction of a second later.

 

There was no mention of the #2 striking the running rail in the Stewards report.

My boy did get a sound bite "was referred to the Vet for assessment and found to have suffered a leg injury."

That day was not simply my bad luck day. The odds were heavily skewed towards AGRC & GRNZ's failures.

That Sunday a greyhound broke a hock in a pre-race solo trial in the same area. My boy was the second of the day. Then later in the program a third dog broke its hock during a C5 527m race at the opposite end of the track, totally free of interference. The 3rd dog was from the kennel Jacob was working for. I know he has seen many races & injuries during them, but if he was at the track that day (I can't recall) I'm willing to bet this day sticks well in his memory well because it was the day the Welfare manager of the time was at the track in Auckland with some Australian "Track Expert" in tow, which GRNZ had flown over to help assess the problems there were having IN 2014.

On the day, I was unable to find where the Welfare manager was hiding, but I was able to locate the Aussie "Expert" and gave him a piece of my mind, after he was dismissive after three fractured hocks and relied on the old saying, it just one of those racing things.

Even after all of my "bad luck" with ownership, still to this day on my lounge wall, you'll find a picture from his maiden win (and my first as an owner), the first-place ribbon from that win, some lure fluff he tried to gobble up from the lure in Cambridge after a trial which I had to dig it out of his muzzle to clear it & his GRNZ registration card. (Out of respect, I've deliberately obscured the co-trainers face as I have not asked for permission to post their photo on the internet).

[Yankiwi]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

So you are not interested in all the variables?  Going by your answer and the tenor of your posts in general your issue is more with GRNZ than finding the root causes of your assessed injury rates.

I am interested in other variables.

However, I'm not interested in pursuing your gaslighting. I've been there and done that many more times than you deserve.

Besides, you discredit everything I post, so what I do post might as well be what I'm interested in, otherwise there's no point other than being told I'm wrong & don't know what I'm talking about.

[Yankiwi]

1 hour ago, aquaman said:

Yes I agree on slowing down the times. Southland and now finished Forbury Park were the best two surface's for slowing them down in my opinion.

Seems slowing them down may have a large positive effect.

Without naming a kennel (I know Chief is itching for me to go there), most know whose dogs make up the largest number of starters down south, yet it has had equally the lowest injury rate percentage this season, all of which are well below the GRNZ KPI target.

You'd think GRNZ would be thinking the same way. If they were fit for purpose, you'd know they were thinking that way.

 

Come on GRNZ. Release injury data on a per track basis. Some speculate my data is all over the place, so why not back them and provide your data to set things straight?

Hell, you could even get the long-awaited chance to one up me & put me in my place.

[Chief Stipe]

2 hours ago, Yankiwi said:

I am interested in other variables.

However, I'm not interested in pursuing your gaslighting. I've been there and done that many more times than you deserve

Chazza you have my sympathy with regard to your ownership experiences.  I've been there and had a number of disappointments because of poorly managed and presented tracks.

I'm not gaslighting you.  I'm interested in a balanced debate and I have a passion for data.  I commend you on your work even though it is inaccurate and doesn't include a measure of variance.  I see after my prodding you have corrected the two turn vs one turn stats (or manipulated them?).  

If you want a rock solid case for your hypothesis then you do need to include other variables like trainers.

In the thoroughbred world it is well known (yes I don't have the data) that the likes of Gai Waterhouse have a high attrition rate with young horses.  Nothing to do with tracks but they way they train them.

[BitofaLegend]

8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

So in Chazza's statistics is there a difference in injury rates between trainers?

Id imagine thered be alot of variables that would contribute to this.

Time of year, track surface,   track circumference, the dog itself, bad luck, sometimes training aswell etc.

Example would be auckland. March-may every year, this track is a killer.

Its worth noting the large majority of injuries are never picked up by the vet post racing so real data would be alot harder to make any real conclusions on, especially muscle injuries which may only start appearring after 6 or so hours