The Art Of Buying a Top Horse. You'll all be at the next sales!!

[Chief Stipe]

6 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

There are none so blind as those that cannot see.

Or those that are so 

 

4 minutes ago, curious said:

What? All owners and trainers have a training agreement don't they? It is pretty clear to me.

Hasn't been my experience.

[Chief Stipe]

43 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Ever seen their accounts? some are mind boggling, one I've seen matches the GDP of a third world country...FFS.

Bullshit.  I have met Te Akau owners that haven't paid a bill for 3 years and have had a ball winning Grp races.  

[Chief Stipe]

8 hours ago, curious said:

Really, how? I thought I had been quite specific.

Really?  Aren't some black type races holding their place?

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, nomates said:

Haha I wish Gamma' , everything I bought I bought for myself .

Bought a Per Incanto weanling filly at Karaka for $500 once , for someone else who asked me to find something for him , when his first crop were about to hit the track and they went BOOM , he left it in the paddock for a few months then got offered 30k but refused to sell for anything less than 60k .

It returned nothing on the track and he's breeding from it and so far nada .

So obviously you let him down.

[Chief Stipe]

50 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

You're too modest, didn't you buy into only three horses these past 3 seasons and from those 3 get two stakes horses? One in particular a Gr1 horse? Chief would give his left testicle for a record like that.......and from what I can see your third horse can gallop pretty fair too.......

Wasn't one of them with Te Akau?

[curious]

14 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Hasn't been my experience.

Read the rules then.

https://nztr.co.nz/sites/nztrindustry/files/2023-05/STANDARDTRAININGAGREEMENT.pdf

NZTR TRAINING AGREEMENT, NZTR CO-OWNER AGREEMENT AND NZTR LEASE AGREEMENT
1502 (1) The NZTR Training Agreement is deemed to apply between the Trainer and Owner of each horse (except Exempt Trainers and Exempt Owners), and such parties must comply with the agreement, subject to sub-Rule 1502(2).

Edited March 26 by curious

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, curious said:

Read the rules then.

https://nztr.co.nz/sites/nztrindustry/files/2023-05/STANDARDTRAININGAGREEMENT.pdf

NZTR TRAINING AGREEMENT, NZTR CO-OWNER AGREEMENT AND NZTR LEASE AGREEMENT
1502 (1) The NZTR Training Agreement is deemed to apply between the Trainer and Owner of each horse (except Exempt Trainers and Exempt Owners), and such parties must comply with the agreement, subject to sub-Rule 1502(2).

Hasn't been my experience.

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, Wingman said:

I have looked at 6 premier/book 1 sales, 2015-2020 with the view that this should give a decent insight of the reality of David Ellis buying success.

2015- 25 lots purchased, 3 million spent, 122K average. Best buy Heroic Valour, 400K, nearly won back his price in prize money and sold to stud which would have given syndicate a profit. No other notables, top priced buy 800K, no good.

2016 - 15 lots 3.5M/232K . One gem, Melody Belle 57.5K/4.2M. Top buy 500K, no good.

2017 - 27 lots 4.6M/171K . One top horse, Avantage 210K/2.1M, one VG horse Pris de fir 100K/938K and Sword of Oman paid his way, 165K/287K. Highest purchase Al Hasa 625K/200K. No others that I saw of note.

2018 - 27 lots (again). 7.6M/282K One gem, Probabeel, 380K/4.5M. Two other decent racehorses, Aotea Lad, 200K/425K and Aromatic 160K/419K and the sold as a broodmare. Amongst the also rans were some expensive failures. Lethal, 1 Million and 25 thousand to return 6K as a placed maiden, Fall of Joy, 900K, unraced/deceased, Laureate 625K, placed 5K, Equinox 750K, 4 wins, 94K and Exaltation, 900k purchase, 5wins, 57K return.

2019 - 38 lots 7.7M/203K No gems, Amarelinha 300K/600K, Cool aza beel 150K/700K and Fashion Shoot 320K/to date 300K. Campionessa passed in at 70K, purchased later and to the delight of her syndicate, to date 1.2M. A poor buy was Conquistador 775K, placed to return less than 1K but the 'howler' is No Limits which Ellis went to 1.4Million to secure for a maiden win at Wanganui and a return of 6K.

2020 - 28 lots 6.6M/235K, no gems. Best was Noverre, 800K, won 2000 Guineas, 355K stakes and now at stud. On the bubbles 90K/953K, another KM winner. Highest price paid Espionage 875K/22K (1 win) and 'Ouch' an unnamed I Am Invincible colt $625,000...zip

160 lots purchased over 5 years/six Premier/Book 1 sales. 2 top class, 10 very good profitable horses gives a strike rate of; 7.5%

Your figures are wrong.

[Joe Bloggs]

47 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Bullshit.  I have met Te Akau owners that haven't paid a bill for 3 years and have had a ball winning Grp races.  

Woopy Doo, so have I, FYI, Late last year Mrs Bloggs had a horse in work with a hall of fame trainer here, he trained a winner for her, looking at his accounts, very reasonable, in fact, bloody good value, would we race a horse up in moo loo country, hell will freeze over first!

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Woopy Doo, so have I, FYI, Late last year Mrs Bloggs had a horse in work with a hall of fame trainer here, he trained a winner for her, looking at his accounts, very reasonable, in fact, bloody good value, would we race a horse up in moo loo country, hell will freeze over first!

So your latest claim to fame is a filly by Roc De Cambes out of a passed in mare at that Inglis Easter sale that you rave about.  Which has won 4 races out of 18 on off tracks for $76k in 3 years of racing.

Now you don't actually own a share but what is your ROI?

[Joe Bloggs]

You're a sad prick aren't you, if you're going to be vicious get it right fella, not that filly at all, didn't you read ....HALL OF FAME TRAINER, the bloke that trains our Roc is hardly that.......go on, sit up all night going through what HOF trainers it could be.......you guess it correct, I'll buy you a diamond bike.

[Chief Stipe]

14 hours ago, Joe Bloggs said:

You're a sad prick aren't you, if you're going to be vicious get it right fella, not that filly at all, didn't you read ....HALL OF FAME TRAINER, the bloke that trains our Roc is hardly that.......go on, sit up all night going through what HOF trainers it could be.......you guess it correct, I'll buy you a diamond bike.

A prick doesn't do his homework.

Also hardly "viscious" just have a good memory plus BOAY doesn't delete anything.

[Joe Bloggs]

Well then I guess I owe you a diamond bike as you obviously know who the HOF trainer is and the name of Mrs Bloggs horse.

[Chief Stipe]

5 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Well then I guess I owe you a diamond bike as you obviously know who the HOF trainer is and the name of Mrs Bloggs horse.

Yep

[Special Agent]

10 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Well then I guess I owe you a diamond bike

Will there be stones on the seat?

[Chief Stipe]

28 minutes ago, Joe Bloggs said:

Well then I guess I owe you a diamond bike as you obviously know who the HOF trainer is and the name of Mrs Bloggs horse.

So @nomates I don't know?  Can you and @Joe Bloggs give up on the Tall Poppy slaying?  Even if @nomates you still have a horse with a tall poppy.

[Joe Bloggs]

48 minutes ago, Special Agent said:

Will there be stones on the seat?

No, it'll be hot wired.......

[Freda]

9 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

Also hardly "viscous" just have a good memory ...

                              ' Viscous - a thick and sticky substance '

[Freda]

FFS...can we not just accept that T.A have developed into an impressive conglomerate that is very, very good at what they do.?

But they are not the only way to go....there are many other successful operations that fly a bit lower under the radar...that doesn't make them inferior, just different.

No outfit however has a mortgage on top horses and T.A has its share of horses that are moderate, average, or just plain awful.  As we all do.

Chatting to a stable representative, locally, a few years ago about the stock he was handling at that time, he said, these are the shitters, we have more of them than the highflyers- but they are part and parcel of keeping the whole thing going.

Go Racing has a different modus operandi, but many people have a great experience with them.

[Huey]

12 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

So your latest claim to fame is a filly by Roc De Cambes out of a passed in mare at that Inglis Easter sale that you rave about.  Which has won 4 races out of 18 on off tracks for $76k in 3 years of racing.

Now you don't actually own a share but what is your ROI?

Geez I'll take a moderately bred one thats performed as well as that any day of the week. You talk about it like finding one that can be winning 4 races is easy CS....headsup it ain't.

You need to get your trainers licence and get a real feel for how difficult and challenging the sport is, I think you might pop your fan boy balloon with the TA team a fair bit if you did.

[nomates]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

                              ' Viscous - a thick and sticky substance '

Sounds like a poster on here .

[nomates]

2 hours ago, Freda said:

FFS...can we not just accept that T.A have developed into an impressive conglomerate that is very, very good at what they do.?

But they are not the only way to go....there are many other successful operations that fly a bit lower under the radar...that doesn't make them inferior, just different.

No outfit however has a mortgage on top horses and T.A has its share of horses that are moderate, average, or just plain awful.  As we all do.

Chatting to a stable representative, locally, a few years ago about the stock he was handling at that time, he said, these are the shitters, we have more of them than the highflyers- but they are part and parcel of keeping the whole thing going.

Go Racing has a different modus operandi, but many people have a great experience with them.

The thing is Freda that for some reason the big nob thinks that myself and Joe are focused on knocking TA , the tall poppy , we aren't . The discussion is around all the big syndicators here and in Australia and how it's just a lucky dip at the high end as much as the bottom . I simply stated that a number of people I know or have known would do just as well with the same budget . It's not a fine art , it's a purely a numbers game but when your buying at that level in those numbers your chances are pretty damned good of getting a couple of gun racehorses . As that stable rep stated all these tall poppies have more failures than successes , it's just the way it works .

It's funny how the big players miss so many good yearlings that go on to be G1 winners with other purchasers , how did they miss them ? , because it's not an exact science .

But someone as usual , one person that doesn't understand the process and chooses to create discord with nasty digs and continual accusations . 

The real trial of a persons ability to find good horses is to buy 10 yearlings with 100k .

It's the same as the top football managers at the biggest clubs , where they have the best players and huge buying budgets , just how would they go at a division 3 club and no real spending power , that's the real test of their ability as a coach .

This post won't stop him .

[Chief Stipe]

4 hours ago, Freda said:

                              ' Viscous - a thick and sticky substance '

Really @Freda ?  That's the best you've got?

[Chief Stipe]

4 hours ago, Freda said:

But they are not the only way to go....there are many other successful operations that fly a bit lower under the radar...that doesn't make them inferior, just different.

Like who?  Not many down your neck of the woods.  Congratulations on your three wins so far this season.

4 hours ago, Freda said:

Chatting to a stable representative, locally, a few years ago about the stock he was handling at that time, he said, these are the shitters, we have more of them than the highflyers- but they are part and parcel of keeping the whole thing going.

Still you have a 1 in 5 chance of picking up a black type race.

4 hours ago, Freda said:

Go Racing has a different modus operandi, but many people have a great experience with them.

So what is their point of difference?  Aside from buying yearlings and sending them to multiple trainers?

[Special Agent]

And you know what, it is an owner's choice where they place their hard earned dollars.  If you want to join a syndicate and enjoy a small share of the action, or you want to invest in a service fee to watch your choice of mating grow into something only a mother could love, or fork out for a horse of your own at the yearling sales, or try a cheap cast off on Gavelhouse .... it is all available to you and thus in taking on any of these options you are a very important part of the racing industry.

My point is that nobody in the industry should be shunned, there is more than enough room for everybody.  It is extremely hard for all of us to turn up day after day when the results may not be coming and the funds are running low.  That doesn't mean we should be jealous of those who are succeeding. 

Likewise those who are put on a pedastal aren't always what they seem.  Sometimes there are some not so "kosha" practices to get them to where they need to go, and they also need to pay the bills by whatever means at their disposal.

Some of us on here have been in racing all our lives and there is very little we have not seen.  People come and go.  Really the stayers deserve a medal but, a bit like NZ racing in general they are a dying breed.

So, I've sort of lost my point now.  Phone calls have interrupted my train of thought.  But, I guess what I am trying to say is even though we are doing essentially the same job, we are all different with different ideas.  That doesn't make any of us wrong.  Sharing ideas is great and debating mostly healthy.  It is just interesting how people's attitudes can get in the way.

A little bit of possitivity goes a long way.  Weren't we taught if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.