aardies express runs tonight at menagle

[Chief Stipe]

@the galah you are wasting your time because you are cherry picking and then linking dots to support your alleged consipiracy.

Levamisole and its metabolites are easily detectable - if there are no positives i.e. the substances are not detected in pre-race and post race testing then how does zero presence affect horse performance?

Yes there have been positives but THEY WERE DETECTED!!!!  You argue that the Trainers in those cases got the withholding periods wrong or their timing wrong - that happens often with any number of banned or restricted substances many of which are legal to use.

But if in this new world of super sensitive testing no metabolites were detected HOW CAN THEY HAVE HAD ANY PHARMACOLOGICAL EFFECT?  Explain that.

BTW chemicals just don't suddenly disappear in a blood or urine sample when put in a bottle.  You need a liver and kidneys to do that!

[Chief Stipe]

15 hours ago, the galah said:

But heres a quote from the RACING MEDICATION TESTING CONSORTIUM,based in lexington ,kentucky.

They are internationally recognised as authorities on equine research,testing and recommending medication policies.

"Levamisole metabolizes in the horse into aminorex and possibly also pemoline,both of which are potent stimulants assigned a 1/A classification in the association of racing commissioners international uniform classification of foreign substances.

the identification of either of those substances in a post race sample is associated with a potential career ending penalty."...

...therefore,the RMTC recommends that following the withdrawal of levamisole, treated horses be tested prior to entry to ensure levamisole and its metabolites have been eliminated from the horse. Before submitting a sample for clearance testing it is advisable to consult the regulatory authority to make sure your sample meets the laboratory requirements for matrix and volume."

What's your point @the galah?  I've never said that aminorex is not a metabolite of Levamisole.  I have said that the volume produced is very small and unlikley to have a pharmacological effect.  However it is easily detected and the piece you cut and pasted essentially says that!!!!

15 hours ago, the galah said:

did you get that chief,metabolizes into aminorex..a potent stimulant.

Where did I say it wasn't?  I'll repeat so perhaps you can comprehend - it is easily detectable, is metabolised in small amounts from Levamisole.  If it isn't detected it CAN'T have a pharmacological effect. 

15 hours ago, the galah said:

but hey maybe you know more than them.

Where did I contradict them?  

You are the one joining all these dots and joining the uneducated rabble that are looking for any reason for a stables high performance.  BUT you lack of understanding or chosen ignorance is deliberate on some science because it doesn't support your conspiracy!!!!

15 hours ago, the galah said:

Nah,safe to say you don't..

I'm not replying to anymore of your comments about my posts.

I'm tired of wasting my time .

Yep run for cover rather than addressing the science.

[Chief Stipe]

To put this in context - modern testing technology can detect levels at nanograms per liter and lower.  If desired you can go as low as picograms per liter.

A nanogram is 1 billionth of a gram. 0.000,000,001 grams.

A picogram is 1 trillionth of a gram. 0.000,000,000,001 grams

For those that think this isn't correct many of you will have had a PSA test - you get your test results back in a few days.  A good result is less than 2.5 nanograms per liter.  The same technology is used to test horse blood!!!

A grain of white refined sugar weighs 625,000 nanograms.

A poppy seed weighs 300,000 nanograms.

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, the galah said:

But heres a quote from the RACING MEDICATION TESTING CONSORTIUM,based in lexington ,kentucky.

They are internationally recognised as authorities on equine research,testing and recommending medication policies.

A 2022-presented levamisole study in equines that was partially co-authored by current KHRC (Kentucky Horse Racing Commission) equine medical directors Mary Scollay and Dr. Bruce Howard noted that levamisole can stay in horses' systems for an extensive period of time while the presence of the metabolite aminorex tails off quickly.

[the galah]

To summarise everything you have said. 

You have said i talk bullshit,wasting time,i'm ignorant,blah,blah,blah...blah blah.

I've re read the posts on this topic.

Whats seems to have started sending you off the rails is that i said levamisole metabolises into the known performance enhancer aminorex.And because i inferred the reason people like trainor and grimson would be using levamisole, would be for its performance enhancing effects.

before you get your tits in a tangle i know grimson has no positives.And i have never said they have positives for aminorex.

So you say its unreasonable for me to argue that someone caught cheating,as trainor has with his levamisole positive,can ever have it inferred they would be looking for the performance enhancing effects of the drug they used,because it has not been detected.

Butb thats not the language you use to do that,the language you use is name calling.

Now i can understand your point of view,because i can follow that logic.

i believe you are wrong ,because i believe the latest performance enhancers can be manipulated to avoid detection when tested,but you don't even seem to agree with that.

but all this name calling seems rather over the top.

like i have said previously,its obvious you find some of my posts irritating,seemingly because i have an opinion based on my own observations and interpretations of them.

i'm sure even this reply will irritate you just a little more.lol

Edited June 6 by the galah

[Brodie]

5 minutes ago, the galah said:

To summarise everything you have said. 

You have said i talk bullshit,wasting time,i'm ignorant,blah,blah,blah...blah blah.

I've re read the posts on this topic.

Whats seems to have started sending you off the rails is that i said levamisole metabolises into the known performance enhancer aminorex.And because i inferred the reason people like trainor and grimson would be using levamisole, would be for its performance enhancing effects.

before you get your tits in a tangle i know grimson has no positives.And i have never said they have positives for aminorex.

So you say its unreasonable for me to argue that someone caught cheating,as trainor has with his levamisole positive,can ever have it inferred they would be looking for the performance enhancing effects of the drug they used,because it has not been detected.

Butb thats not the language you use to do that,the language you use is name calling.

Now i can understand your point of view,because i can follow that logic.

i believe you are wrong ,because i believe the latest performance enhancers can be manipulated to avoid detection when tested,but you don't even seem to agree with that.

but all this name calling seems rather over the top.

like i have said previously,its obvious you find some of my posts irritating,seemingly because i have an opinion based on my own observations and interpretations of them.

i'm sure even this reply will irritate you just a little more.lol

Nothing wrong with healthy debate, and personally find it refreshing that you are both expressing your opinion and some facts, whether they are right or wrong, it is interesting!

There is no doubt that all the most winning stables use more enhancements and medicines than the stables that hardly win!

You only need to look at their horses appearance on the track at this time of year!

 

[Chief Stipe]

33 minutes ago, the galah said:

Whats seems to have started sending you off the rails

Who said I've gone "off the rails"?  It isn't me that has come up with this conspiracy theory about performance enhancing metabolites from Levamisole.  

33 minutes ago, the galah said:

is that i said levamisole metabolises into the known performance enhancer aminorex.And because i inferred the reason people like trainor and grimson would be using levamisole, would be for its performance enhancing effects.

before you get your tits in a tangle i know grimson has no positives.And i have never said they have positives for aminorex.

One of the issues I have with your supposition and inference is that you have cherry picked the science.  Yes aminorex is a metabolite of Levamisole.  Yes aminorex has amphetamine type properties which could be performance ehancing.  However you totally ignore the research that says Levamisole metabolises into very small amounts of aminorex which is cleared quickly from the horse.  Probably the reason there are no positives to aminorex.  

33 minutes ago, the galah said:

i believe you are wrong ,because i believe the latest performance enhancers can be manipulated to avoid detection when tested,but you don't even seem to agree with that.

That's where once again your rudimentary knowledge of science is wrong.  Levamisole and its metabolites can be measured at very very low levels.  You can't avoid detection.  We are talking about a very well defined and classifed chemical molecule.  With your vast scientific knowledge how do the users of the substance avoid detection?  A substance that has been easily detected since the late 60's!!

If you are going to use aminorex why not administer it directly rather than rely on the hit and miss of Levamisole metabolism.

33 minutes ago, the galah said:

but all this name calling seems rather over the top.

Harden up.  I call your BS out for what it is BS!  

33 minutes ago, the galah said:

like i have said previously,its obvious you find some of my posts irritating,seemingly because i have an opinion based on my own observations and interpretations of them.

i'm sure even this reply will irritate you just a little more.lol

Yes I do find you an irritation or anyone for that matter who misuses science to undermine racing integrity.

[Chief Stipe]

18 minutes ago, Brodie said:

There is no doubt that all the most winning stables use more enhancements and medicines than the stables that hardly win!

You only need to look at their horses appearance on the track at this time of year!

Yep and what they use is legitimate.

As @the galah stopped to to think what other things Levamisole may do that improves a horses wellbeing?  I'm sure he is in the Ivermectin camp.

The research I have done on Levamisole shows that it has antiparasite, antibacterial and possibly antiviral activity.  Has anyone thought to join the dots in a positive fashion and come to the hypothesis that maybe Levamisole improves substantially the gut health of horses under high performance training stress?  Especially when we know that horses in training on high energy diets suffer many gut/digestion problems including ulcers.  We also know that over 90% of ulcers and stomach disease in humans is caused by a specific bacteria.

[the galah]

17 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Yep and what they use is legitimate.

As @the galah stopped to to think what other things Levamisole may do that improves a horses wellbeing?  I'm sure he is in the Ivermectin camp.

The research I have done on Levamisole shows that it has antiparasite, antibacterial and possibly antiviral activity.  Has anyone thought to join the dots in a positive fashion and come to the hypothesis that maybe Levamisole improves substantially the gut health of horses under high performance training stress?  Especially when we know that horses in training on high energy diets suffer many gut/digestion problems including ulcers.  We also know that over 90% of ulcers and stomach disease in humans is caused by a specific bacteria.

I had discussed that levamisole was good for some things earlier.

I have never said it was bad,just have said it has been recognised as having performance enhancing qualities and gone into what they may be. Hence its with holding time.

So you have a trainer who can significantly improve nearly all the horses he gets off other trainers.

Then he has 2 positives for a substance thats known as a performance enhancer.

So,its not unreasonable to have an opinion that the use of performance enhancers is a factor in their success and is an indication of their practices.

I don't need to harden up,just pointing out the language you used doesn't add anything to your argument.You can keep calling me what you want,i just have a chuckle most of the time.

I get the ivermmectin thing for people who believe it may help,but never thought about it much myself.

Edited June 6 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

26 minutes ago, the galah said:

Then he has 2 positives for a substance thats known as a performance enhancer.

Alleged performance enhancer based on the fact that one of its metabolites may be present.  Where is the research that it enhances the performance of a horse?  Where is the research that it enhances the performance of a horse when it isn't detected i.e. it has been metabolised from the body?

That'sr one reason where your dots fail to become a solid line.

[the galah]

Just now, Chief Stipe said:

Alleged performance enhancer based on the fact that one of its metabolites may be present.  Where is the research that it enhances the performance of a horse?  Where is the research that it enhances the performance of a horse when it isn't detected i.e. it has been metabolised from the body?

That'sr one reason where your dots fail to become a solid line.

i agree with that. My dots don't form a solid line.

but  my dots still end up at the right final destination. In my opinion of course.

[Chief Stipe]

28 minutes ago, the galah said:

So,its not unreasonable to have an opinion that the use of performance enhancers is a factor in their success and is an indication of their practices.

Where's the conclusive evidence rather than speculation, supposition, innuendo and inference?

29 minutes ago, the galah said:

I don't need to harden up,just pointing out the language you used doesn't add anything to your argument.You can keep calling me what you want,i just have a chuckle most of the time.

Spend less time chuckling and come up with some solid science rather than trying to links pieces of disparate information to support your hypothesis.

Aminorex MAY well be performance enhancing hence Levamisole is now a Class B drug with the associated restrictions.  But it is easily detected so you can't use it and have it at levels that may enhance performance without returning a positive.

So you keep maniacally chuckling away.

[Chief Stipe]

9 minutes ago, the galah said:

i agree with that. My dots don't form a solid line.

but  my dots still end up at the right final destination. In my opinion of course.

Ok treat us all to a logical presentation of your rationale for arriving at the right final destination.

So far you have failed.

[the galah]

1 minute ago, Chief Stipe said:

Ok treat us all to a logical presentation of your rationale for arriving at the right final destination.

So far you have failed.

your defintion of what i was trying to achieve was never the same as mine.

My defintion,well i know what thoughts are in my mind and i have been successful putting my point of view across..

Anyway,even going by your defintion,i would say,failure was always going to be success in progress.

[Gammalite]

While Chief and the Galah and Aardies Express possibly are enhancing their performance with a bit of Aminorex, Livamisole and/or assorted cuppa's, seems a good time for a tie-breaker while waiting for some Auckland trots to start soon , and enhance own performance with a nice XXXX beer and a tipping comp 🏆😎. the Brodie-Meister better have a runner as well as know he loves Auckland trotting and wouldn't want us to beat him. 😂  posting your horses soon. 😉

[Chief Stipe]

8 minutes ago, the galah said:

My defintion,well i know what thoughts are in my mind and i have been successful putting my point of view across..

If you call success posting a lot of scientific nonsense and leading to an unsubstantiated conclusion then yes you have been successful.

9 minutes ago, the galah said:

Anyway,even going by your defintion,i would say,failure was always going to be success in progress.

Tautology at best.

The biggest flaw to your argument is:

At any level of concentration Levamisole and its metabolites can be detected therefore if it is being abused then it will be detected.

If it does have performance enhancing properties then it needs to be present at a detectable level to have a pharmacological effect.  If it is present then it can be detected.

That in a nutshell blows your hypothesis apart.

[Chief Stipe]

Have a read of this science testing Aminorex on horses.

ajvr-ajvr.69.5.675.pdf

[Chief Stipe]

I guess @the galah is still reading but it is clear in the paper that aminorex is cleared very quickly from the horses bloodstream and body.

Which aligns with the other work done on Levamisole metabolism.

So if Levamisole does improve a horses performance it likely to be from a therapeutic effect I.e. it makes the horse healthier by resolving detrimental health issues.

Historically it was being used as an immune system booster prior to long distance transport.  Many positives arose as an inadvertent by-product of that administration hence the advisory from the NZ Racing Vet in 2009.

Isn't ironic that we prohibit and ban drugs that actually make horses healthier and thus improve their performance.

The research I've read is that gut and digestive disease is the biggest impediment to performance.  How many trainers and owners out there are popping Omeprazole or Losec for gastric reflux and ulcers?  

[the galah]

19 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Have a read of this science testing Aminorex on horses.

ajvr-ajvr.69.5.675.pdf 1.17 MB · 1 download

interesting study chief.

But your working on the premise that the performance enhancing effects only apply if it is detectable in testing.

Of course we know thats not true for many things.

EPO a classic example of that.

Also it seems to be a study relating to single dose..

In other words,what do multiple doses do and that may be a way around the detection in testing while still getting performance enhancing effects. 

I say that because i was told 15 years ago when it first hit the headlines that some trainers were known to be dosing their horses 5 days in a row.

also the observations of the horses behavior. 

the study says for one type of admistration, behavioral changes were noticed for up to 6 minutes,but then back to normal.

so even going by the testing results in the study,there was no apparent noticable changes in behavior when the most significant amounts of the drug were in the system. So the study proves normal behavioral changes can not be used as an  indication of adminsitration beyond 6 minutes.

Then theres the half life. the curve for that starts off with a steep decline in the first few hours but then levels out quite quickly. 

Edited June 7 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

But your working on the premise that the performance enhancing effects only apply if it is detectable in testing.

Right so testing according to you is a complete waste of time.  You obviously have no idea.

1 hour ago, the galah said:

EPO a classic example of that.

Synthetic EPO is detectable however it is a completely different class of drug that has natural analogues hence the difficulty in detecting it.

1 hour ago, the galah said:

In other words,what do multiple doses do and that may be a way around the detection in testing while still getting performance enhancing effects. 

Multiple doses take longer to clear for reasons that you seem oblivious to.

Levamisole and its metabolites if not present aren't having any effect.  

Any number of legal therapeutic drugs have withholding periods I.e. the time it takes to clear the horses system.  Are you going to completely ban everything?

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Then theres the half life. the curve for that starts off with a steep decline in the first few hours but then levels out quite quickly. 

Correct and it levels out to near zero!!!  So can't have a pharmacological effect!!

It was pure aminorex that was being tested at quantities far higher than would be metabolised from Levamisole.

What annoys me most about your bullshit is you had fuel to all the crap conspiracy theories about performance enhancing.  You effectively bring racing into disrepute and you add a warped credibility to those pushing crap treatments that have no effect. 

[the galah]

42 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Right so testing according to you is a complete waste of time.  You obviously have no idea.

Synthetic EPO is detectable however it is a completely different class of drug that has natural analogues hence the difficulty in detecting it.

Multiple doses take longer to clear for reasons that you seem oblivious to.

Levamisole and its metabolites if not present aren't having any effect.  

Any number of legal therapeutic drugs have withholding periods I.e. the time it takes to clear the horses system.  Are you going to completely ban everything?

Correct and it levels out to near zero!!!  So can't have a pharmacological effect!!

It was pure aminorex that was being tested at quantities far higher than would be metabolised from Levamisole.

What annoys me most about your bullshit is you had fuel to all the crap conspiracy theories about performance enhancing.  You effectively bring racing into disrepute and you add a warped credibility to those pushing crap treatments that have no effect. 

no idea,crap conspiracy theory,warped credibility,bring racing into disrepute,bullshit

can't you fit a few more into your next post on this topic?

Just tell me what you really think chief as i'm feeling too comfortable with that latest reply.

p.s.Name calling indicates to me i'm winning this argument. Lol.

Edited June 7 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

no idea,crap conspiracy theory,warped credibility,bring racing into disrepute,bullshit

can't you fit a few more into your next post on this topic?

Just tell me what you really think chief as i'm feeling too comfortable with that latest reply.

p.s.Name calling indicates to me i'm winning this argument. Lol.

Really?  You're not winning anything.  I just described what you write for what it is.

You've provided ZERO science to support your hypothesis.

Present a factual argument to support your opinion?  

 

[Blackie]

I’m running out of popcorn 🍿 

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Really?  You're not winning anything.  I just described what you write for what it is.

You've provided ZERO science to support your hypothesis.

Present a factual argument to support your opinion?  

 

Rather watch the races tonight actually.

just backed imperial command.

big run for 3rd,caught late. had no trial this week,bit unusual for him. was paying $71 at one stage. oh well.

   

4 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Right so testing according to you is a complete waste of time.  You obviously have no idea.

 

Off the top of my head... lance armstrong,florence griffith joyner(flo jo),marion jones... the 30 or so USA horse trainers,most of whom went to jail a couple of years ago...oh thats right you said the poor buggas were duped and sold snake oil....light and sound,remember that one.

Anyway i have to focus on addington now. Enjoy your night.

Edited June 7 by the galah

[Brodie]

37 minutes ago, the galah said:

Rather watch the races tonight actually.

just backed imperial command.

big run for 3rd,caught late. had no trial this week,bit unusual for him. was paying $71 at one stage. oh well.

   

Off the top of my head... lance armstrong,florence griffith joyner(flo jo),marion jones... the 30 or so USA horse trainers,most of whom went to jail a couple of years ago...oh thats right you said the poor buggas were duped and sold snake oil....light and sound,remember that one.

Anyway i have to focus on addington now. Enjoy your night.

Lol you only backed it cos Clark wasnt on it!

Well done Galah, havent had a go tonight.

Had been going not bad races recently against race winners and change of driver helped but still didnt have a great run sitting parked!

Its all good, down to race again on Sunday, normally doesnt miss a Canterbury meeting and chuck in a mid week trial for experience!