aardies express runs tonight at menagle

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, the galah said:

Off the top of my head... lance armstrong,florence griffith joyner(flo jo),marion jones..

You are talking about 30 years ago.  Yep there has been no advancement in testing technology since then.  Not to mention you are ignoring the fact we are talking about a totally different class of drug.  I accept you haven't a clue about any of this.

Aminorex is an amphetamine analogue.  A class of drug that has been around since at least WW2.  Not only that but easily detected down to less than a trillionth of a gram per litre.

3 hours ago, the galah said:

30 or so USA horse trainers,most of whom went to jail a couple of years ago...oh thats right you said the poor buggas were duped and sold snake oil....light and sound,remember that one.

They were duped.  It was largely a case of fraud - mislabelling of legitimate easily detectable drugs as well as snake oil that were used fraudently and within withholding periods.  The majority were done for another them illegally in their possession.

The fact is Levamisole and its metabolites such as aminorex are easily detected in testing.  It is impossible to mask their presence.

Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of the science involved in testing would be laughing themselves silly at what you write.  Or groaning with pity.

I can send you some 101 material to improve your understanding but I suspect you are so far down Alice's rabbit hole it would be a waste of time.

Oh and your latest argument eluding to masking falls down because if it was so easy to mask why have there been so many positives?

[Gammalite]

11 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

I can send you some 101 material to improve your understanding but I suspect you are so far down Alice's rabbit hole it would be a waste of time.

Don't underestimate the power of Alice's Rabbit hole . A good place to be at times.😁😉👍

 

[the galah]

i haven't a clue,people groaning withy pity at what i write,waste of time for you trying to get me to understand.

New wording for you there chief. Same meaning ,but different words.

hmmm.

you work on the theory that saying something over and over again will eventually lead you and others to believe what it is you say. Hey that does work to a degree,but not with me.

13 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

You are talking about 30 years ago.  Yep there has been no advancement in testing technology since then.  Not to mention you are ignoring the fact we are talking about a totally different class of drug.  I accept you haven't a clue about any of this.

 

duh chief.....you refer to the advancement in testing but fail to mention the advancement in labs comming up with new drugs,often drugs with only small changes from the make up of existing drugs,but enough to avoid detection because they aren't testing for them.

 

13 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

They were duped.  It was largely a case of fraud - mislabelling of legitimate easily detectable drugs as well as snake oil that were used fraudently and within withholding periods.  The majority were done for another them illegally in their possession.

 

We discussed this previously on another topic.

You thought all the trainers who saw big increases in their horses performances and went to the top of the premiership tables when they starting using the performance enhancers they were sold(what you call snake oil),well you put that down to coincidence. They didn't,just look at the data around the timeframes of those using them and the immediate success they had. I referred you to the yonkers trainers.

no one returned a positive in those cases but i even quoted a couple of judges sentencing remarks referring to the admissions of using performance enhancers by all those that went to jail. 

Then i have previously quoted what some of the leading experts over there said and how hard they said it was to keep up with detecting some new performance enhancers because the labs making the performance enahncers could easily just make small changes to the drugs make up to avoid detection and also they didn't have the funding to test for everything or enough research on identifying the latest thing.

still you say,they were all duped and sold snake oil.yeh right.

13 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

I can send you some 101 material to improve your understanding but I suspect you are so far down Alice's rabbit hole it would be a waste of time.

 

Was that a typing error and did you mean 501,have me deported back to the darkside..lol.

 

13 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Oh and your latest argument eluding to masking falls down because if it was so easy to mask why have there been so many positives?

But they haven't caught the likes of grimson have they. As to so many positives,wheres the evidence there has been that.

my theory.....is the likes of trainors positive is not because he has done anything different. I beleive there has to be something different in the make up of the products they are being treated with from batch to batch,possibly the make up of the horses is seeing different detectable times,their past exposure to whatever,etc... Most likely a combination of those things which has lead to the detection of something they have been using.

Edited June 7 by Chief Stipe
Removed reference to suicide in line with the Harmful Digitial Communications Act prohibiting such comments.

[the galah]

 

12 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

but I suspect you are so far down Alice's rabbit hole it would be a waste of time.

 

I'm the galah chief ,you need to look skyward for me,not underground.

But i've worked out your real identity chief.

Bill murray,is that you chief??????

one of my favorite films was caddyshack.

you think i'm the gopher perhaps..

remember how that ended....LOL...

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

you work on the theory that saying something over and over again will eventually lead you and others to believe what it is you say. Hey that does work to a degree,but not with me.

No because not only are you slow on the uptake you are biased and blind.

1 hour ago, the galah said:

duh chief.....you refer to the advancement in testing but fail to mention the advancement in labs comming up with new drugs,often drugs with only small changes from the make up of existing drugs,but enough to avoid detection because they aren't testing for them.

Duh! So you've conceded on the Levamisole/aminorex argument and now arguing that there are undetected drugs in use out there.  Where did you read this crap about small changes to exising drugs can lead to avoidance of detection?  A cite please.  

However your statement indicates a complete lack of understanding of how testing works.  A test doesn't look for the whole drug it looks for a chemical structure within that drug that classifes it for example as an opoid or an amphetamine analogue.  A bit like Covid RAT tests - the test looks for a structure that is common to all Covid strains - a very small part of that structure that can't change.  

When testing for drugs the tests do the same thing for example with opoids they may look for the 4,5-epoxymorphinan ring which is common to all opoids. If a spike occurs on the test assay results then they can further refine to find what the specific molecule is.  

As I've told you many many times before modern testing looks for anomalies - e.g. if an undefined spike occurs on a mass spectrometer then that triggers a futher investigation and isolation of what the molecule is and its chemical structure.  

1 hour ago, the galah said:

You thought all the trainers who saw big increases in their horses performances and went to the top of the premiership tables when they starting using the performance enhancers they were sold(what you call snake oil),well you put that down to coincidence. They didn't,just look at the data around the timeframes of those using them and the immediate success they had. I referred you to the yonkers trainers.

You would fail as a scientist because you are connecting dots without a chain of evidence.  Some of what was sold was indeed snake oil and would have had no performance impact.  By far the majority of the drugs sold were relabelled drugs that were in common use for therapeutic reasons or were on the controlled substance list.  That was the biggest crime that was committed - relabelling existing drugs and selling them at inflated prices and circumventing race code rules as well - there are laws against that both in racing and at Federal level.  Many got done for that not because they threw positives with their horses but because they committed fraud.  Akin to what intially got Al Capone - he was done for tax evasion not bootlegging, selling illicit drugs or murder. 

If the administration of these mostly legal drugs resulted in improved performance it was more likely because the health of those horses improved or pain was suppressed allowing harder training.  I'm sure with the extensive reading you tell us all you have done on the subject you will know that there were strict administration time frames given by the sellers for the drugs.  Why?  So they would be within the withholding times for the drugs i.e. by the time the horses got to the races their systems were clear of the substances that could throw a positive.  If I recall correctly one of the relabelled drugs was Clenbuterol.  Clenbuterol is still able to be legally used but has strict timeframes around its use.  

I can't remember what the fraudsters relabelled it but it would be something like GoFast 99.  Clenbuterol was clearly identified in the relabelled drugs and through positives.  It is probably the lack of a legitimate chain of purchase that alerted the authorities to the fraud.

So effectively they relabelled existing drugs, handed out detailed administration instructions and got idiots to buy the stuff.  The drugs weren't illegal but the process was.

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Then i have previously quoted what some of the leading experts over there said and how hard they said it was to keep up with detecting some new performance enhancers because the labs making the performance enahncers could easily just make small changes to the drugs make up to avoid detection and also they didn't have the funding to test for everything or enough research on identifying the latest thing.

Refer above.  I've explained this before.  The lab testing in the USA is archaic at best.  If a lab scientist did indeed make those comments then they should be sacked because they are not up to speed with current technology.

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Was that a typing error and did you mean 501,have me deported back to the darkside..lol.

No 101 - try reading some Organic and Inorganic Chemistry 101 texts - 101 is the nomenclature used for first year university subjects.

1 hour ago, the galah said:

my theory........is the likes of trainors positive is not because he has done anything different. I beleive there has to be something different in the make up of the products they are being treated with from batch to batch,possibly the make up of the horses is seeing different detectable times,their past exposure to whatever,etc... Most likely a combination of those things which has lead to the detection of something they have been using.

Really?  So your theory is he got a bad batch of Levamisole?  Yet the testing lab identified Levamisole?  Do you actually realise how daft your logic is?

I take it you don't give any weight to the other hypothesis that the horses that returned positives to Levamisole were recent imports from NZ to OZ and that they may have been treated before departure to boost immunity to cover the stress of transport?

 

[Chief Stipe]

BTW this is the chemical structure for aminorex (Organic Chemistry 401):

5-phenyl-4,5-dihydro-1,3-oxazol-2-amine.  This is what testing assays look for.  

[Chief Stipe]

This is the chemical structure of Levamisole.

6-phenyl-2,3,5,6-tetrahydroimidazo[2,1-b][1,3]thiazole.  Interestingly Levamisole is now being used in the successful treatment of human colon cancer.

 

Levamisole is an anthelmintic drug. Co-administered with fluorouracil in the treatment of Dukes' stage C colon cancer, levamisole restores immune function through stimulating antibody formation, enhancing T-cell activity, and potentiating macrophage function. (NCI04)

[Chief Stipe]

Continuing on in @the galah 's Chemistry education.

Aminorex has amphetamine like properties but it isn't classed as an amphetamine.  But looking at the chemical structure of amphetamine we can understand how testing works.

Amphetamine variations all have the same chemical backbone which is what testing assays look for.  If it doesn't have this back bone in a broad sense it isn't an amphetamine.

Classes of drugs all have the same or very similar pharmcological effect which is caused by the common backbone.  This is called a pharmacophore.

For example:

[Chief Stipe]

19 hours ago, Blackie said:

I’m running out of popcorn 🍿 

Pinch @the galah 's!

[the galah]

removing the reference to suicide due to harmful communications act.

WTF is that all about.

lost your sense of humour bill.

There comes a time when i have made my point and you have yours and we just start repeating ourselves..

so i think now's the ideal time for me to put my que back in the rack until another time perhaps.

one parting shot for you.

i remember very early on in the covid pandemic,commenting on this website,saying the lab leak was the most logical explanation. well before it got media attention.

i remember posting about the bat lady and the work they did on creating an extremely contagious coronavirus easily spread from bats to humans in the wuhan lab.Just around the corner from where the wet market was that they were saying it came from.

And i also remember you heavily criticsing my posts on that,saying all the same things about me that you have on this topic,referring to studies and sequencing  etc,etc...all confirming in your mind i was stupid and you were right about the pangolin being the likely source.

well who turned out to be the stupid one chief?

You know i was a bit obssessed with covid early on,a couple of months before it got any coverage here or even on american tv.

I had seen on the bbc a segment from their chinese correspondent in november i think it was,where he was reporting on the early lockdowns in wuhan,reporting on people in full protective gear colllecting the bodies left at peoples front doors,observations of bodies that had lay in the streets for a couple of days where people had just dropped.

Early on he interviewed an english schoolteacher who lived in wuhan,who said,hang on they are officailly saying this only started a couple of weeks ago,but people have been known to have neen dropping for weeks now and while they have locked down the locals,international visitors have been and are still coming and going through wuhans airport,the busiest  airport in central china,located in the centre of chinas airline route network.So,while he didn't say so,it was obvious to conclude it would effect the whole world. 

I remember going around telling everyone i worked with or interacted with,that this is going to be one of the biggest things in our lifetimes. i was saying that before they even reported it on our or other major outlets apart from those early bbc reports and weeks before they were saying other countries had anyone with it.It just seemed so obvious to me what was going to happen.

people used to look at me as if i was stupid or a conspiracy nut.

my point is i follow my insticnts and i believe i have always had very good instincts. 

i apply the same logic and common sense to my observations in racing,

agree with me or not.

thats up to you.

Edited June 8 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

11 minutes ago, the galah said:

removing the reference to suicide due to harmful communications act.

WTF is that all about.

Pull your head in and read the Act.  BOAY has had a complaint before and I'm not looking for another.

[Chief Stipe]

22 minutes ago, the galah said:

There comes a time when i have made my point and you have yours and we just start repeating ourselves..

so i think now's the ideal time for me to put my que back in the rack until another time perhaps.

one parting shot for you.

But your points have no substance.  You promote misinformation but I guess you can be excused because you have no understanding of the science.

22 minutes ago, the galah said:

i remember very early on in the covid pandemic,commenting on this website,saying the lab leak was the most logical explanation. well before it got media attention.

What's that got to do with Levamisole? Deflection?  BTW I've always said that Gain of Function altered coronavirus leaked from a lab was the likely cause of the outbreak.  Science shows that there is a considerable air gap between a wild virus and the one that infected Wuhan.  Your drug testing arguments have a similar air gap.

22 minutes ago, the galah said:

my point is i follow my insticnts and i believe i have always had very good instincts. 

i apply the same logic and common sense to my observations in racing,

Your instincts have failed you in this instance.  Science is about evidence based research NOT instinct.  Occasionally you can get lucky on instinct but at the end of the day you need to provide evidence based fact to support your hypothesis.  You fail constantly.  The difference between you and I when it comes to the origin of Covid is I back up my hypothesis with solid science.  You use gut instinct only.  You display no logic and arguably your commonsense is lacking because you have formed the hypothesis that there is widespread abuse of performance enhancing dugs in racing without any evidence.  When something remotely related to your argument surfaces you go - 

You cry wolf when you see a rabbit.

 

The facts are:

Your interpretation of what happened in the USA in the recent drug scandal is wrong and not supported by the facts.

You have no evidence to support widespread misuse of unknown performance enhancing drugs in harness racing.

A bit like your race analysis e.g. your bashing of Johnny Cox's drive.

[the galah]

53 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Pull your head in and read the Act.  BOAY has had a complaint before and I'm not looking for another.

Just another reason to say something negative is my take on your reaction to my post.

your site,do as you wish.

45 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

 

A bit like your race analysis e.g. your bashing of Johnny Cox's drive.

 

I made a living for many years.did you?

i don't bother trying to do that now due to the tab changing things and returns no longer match the time and effort i put in. 

but you questioning my analysis of races just because you have different opinions to mine is all a bit silly.

if my opinions were similar you wouldn't.

so your justification for your comment is flawed.

As to the j cox drive on majestic man.

so what happened to majestic man after he ran that,tactically poor,strength sapping but courageous race.???

retired,no more racing.

did you not read what phil williamson said about where his strengths lay.

I have since pointed out that i think j ocx is currently in career best form,but his drive on majestic man was not his brightest tactically.

anyway,i think even the  thick skinned like myself get tired of your name calling.

so i won't give you any more opportunities ,as you seem to have become consistently rather negative in the words you use these days.

Bit of a shame,but i can tell thats how you feel,so better out than in i always say.

so my final words about your replies to my posts  is....Whatever chief.  I used a capital W just to emphasis that,as even small things like that can irritate you.

Edited June 8 by the galah

[Chief Stipe]

30 minutes ago, the galah said:

so i won't give you any more opportunities ,as you seem to have become consistently rather negative in the words you use these days.

Come on @the galah 90% of your opening posts are negative.  The last topic you started was typical where you had a go at the favourites getting beaten and made all sorts of inferences.

30 minutes ago, the galah said:

I have since pointed out that i think j ocx is currently in career best form,but his drive on majestic man was not his brightest tactically.

Nearly everyone in that thread disagreed with you.

30 minutes ago, the galah said:

anyway,i think even the  thick skinned like myself get tired of your name calling.

so i won't give you any more opportunities ,as you seem to have become consistently rather negative in the words you use these days.

Pot kettle Galah.  You won't respond to reasoned argument with logic or evidence.  That's the biggest difference in our respective posts but you label mine negative.  How is providing substantial evidence to support my claims negative?  They are only negative in your view because they negate the conspiracy BS that you promote.

You level of knowledge is as bad as the Stuff article around 2009 about a Levamisole positive that stated trainers were "loading their horses with P"!  It was unintellgent ignorant BS based on someone connecting dots to arrive at a conclusion that supported their bias.  It was nonsense.  The journo had obvisiously been sent information or had Googled it and came up with research showing that Levamisole metabolised to an amphetamine LIKE chemical called aminorex.  So yes I saw red when you started repeating the same crap.  

30 minutes ago, the galah said:

so my final words about your replies to my posts  is....Whatever chief.  I used a capital W just to emphasis that,as even small things like that can irritate you.

Actually Galah I ignore most of your juvenile swipes as its the BS you espouse on major issues that I take issue with.  In my opinion it is those views that are killing the industry aided and abetted by the inaction of those administrators that could resolve things.

The integrity of the industry is in trouble NOT because of its participants at the coalface but through the inaction of those making the rules and the negative culture of those enforcing them.

You don't offer solutions you just point the finger and go "I told you so!"

[Brodie]

Speaking of inaction, it is good to see HRNZ have appointed a new CEO even though he is an Ozzie from Queensland, Brad Steele.

This has been the rumour for several months I understand!

Hopefully he knows how to improve things as harness is going to need plenty of positive action to keep the sport afloat due to some seriously stupid decisions made over the past decade or so.

Brad Steele has some financial nous under Ozzie business standards by the look of it, and he is certainly going to need to be pretty skilled to improve things!

With Entain now at the helm the Ozzies are certainly in control of NZ harness racing for the next 24 years, due to McAnulty and co.

Its a wait and see as to how this invasion from Ozzies of our once great industry goes in the future.

Brodie telling it the way it is!

 

Edited June 8 by Brodie

[Gammalite]

3 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Its a wait and see as to how this invasion from Ozzies of our once great industry goes in the future.

Brodie telling it the way it is!

It helped Barry Purdon in his future/present anyway. (and Scott Phelan) and some numbers racing in the North Island that was becoming critical as you suggested many times.

the Big Aussie stepping in. Even Inspired Katrina Purdon to even bring her horse Mach Shard home from Aus (and win the Messenger) since hubby Barry finally found some form 🤣😎💰

 

with Dean Shannon arriving on your shores and providing the Derby and Grins Race winner Merlin and others. and buying up big at the sales each year now.  I believe 17 horses so far and building.

A good Queensland friend of mine racing a share in MAGICIAN there too. (Shannon was the underbidder) Merlin's half brother that ran 2nd at Addington for Dalgety's last night . 

Doesn't look fast enough to Win the Derby ?? 😪 what do you think Brodster? can they improve him in 6 months to be a Derby chance? 

[Brodie]

50 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

It helped Barry Purdon in his future/present anyway. (and Scott Phelan) and some numbers racing in the North Island that was becoming critical as you suggested many times.

the Big Aussie stepping in. Even Inspired Katrina Purdon to even bring her horse Mach Shard home from Aus (and win the Messenger) since hubby Barry finally found some form 🤣😎💰

 

with Dean Shannon arriving on your shores and providing the Derby and Grins Race winner Merlin and others. and buying up big at the sales each year now.  I believe 17 horses so far and building.

A good Queensland friend of mine racing a share in MAGICIAN there too. (Shannon was the underbidder) Merlin's half brother that ran 2nd at Addington for Dalgety's last night . 

Doesn't look fast enough to Win the Derby ?? 😪 what do you think Brodster? can they improve him in 6 months to be a Derby chance? 

Magician goes ok and Dalgetys are very good trainers, and Carter in the bike.

Would need to grow a couple of legs though  to be a Derby horse as it remains a maiden.

Diamond Stables and Stonewall seem to have the wood on most of the 3 year olds at the mo, Gamma.

 

[Gammalite]

Well the nice horse Aardies Express goes 3 from 3 in Oz as jogs in and picks up the easiest 16k as only racing 4 others last night and 2 were Grimson stable-mates 😆. a $4.20 Trifecta lol. She Aardie had to raise a sweat.

Aardie advances to $150,000 earned from the 3 starts at Menangle. (about the same she earned in her entire 2 and 3 year old seasons combined racing in NZ) so guessing the Group 1's of  'Golden Girl' and 'Blacks A Fake' at Brisbane next month are on the agenda.

Swayzee won last night Menangle for Grimson as well so might have 'top billing'.  

Leap To Fame is waiting for them though. The awesome Predator anihilated the Standing start Flashing Red handicap last night , finishing just as far in front of them , as what he started behind them at the start . Rounding them up Mid race and waltzing away up the straight.  Track record again.

Here he is cruising away from locals including old kiwi warhorse "Turn It Up' (centre of pack there 4th) who is just starting to miss a place lately but still has 5 wins from 12 starts this year.   Old "Smithy's Terror' back in the truck there somewhere too.

 

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

Swayzee won last night Menangle for Grimson as well so might have 'top billing'.  

Yep contrary to some pundits Swayzee has come back really well from his spell.

Track Rating: GOOD	Gross Time: 2:41:3	Mile Rate: 1:52:8	Lead Time: 48.3
First Quarter: 29.2	Second Quarter: 28.5	Third Quarter: 27.9	Fourth Quarter: 27.4
Margins: 10.6m x HFNK

 

 

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

Well the nice horse Aardies Express goes 3 from 3 in Oz as jogs in and picks up the easiest 16k as only racing 4 others last night and 2 were Grimson stable-mates 😆. a $4.20 Trifecta lol. She Aardie had to raise a sweat.

Track Rating: GOOD		Gross Time: 1:53:0	Mile Rate: 1:53:0
First Quarter: 27.5	Second Quarter: 30.9	Third Quarter: 28.5	Fourth Quarter: 26.1
Margins: HD x 6.9m Seemed to be pacing smoothly.

[Chief Stipe]

I see Peter Profit aka @Archie Butterfly is going for the outlandish headlines.

"Levamisole isn't just a wormer son - it's speed!", he posts.

What utter nonsense.  So one of its metabolites is aminorex.  It is produced in very small amounts and cleared very quickly.  Not only that it is extremely easy to detect.

I notice so far the positives notified are to Levamisole NOT aminorex!!!  Is it because it wasn't tested for or not detected?