Good luck with Tuesdays

[Taku Umanga]

Ashburton trials today = 61 starters

Rangiora trials today = 67 starters

Along with three race meetings in Canterbury this week (Wednesday, Friday and Sunday).

Cambridge races Thursday night = 83 starters (and three of them are from Canterbury).

Good luck with Tuesdays in the new season!

[mikeynz]

On 5/7/2024 at 8:04 AM, Taku Umanga said:

 

Good luck with Tuesdays in the new season!

Winton on Thursday, be interesting to see how this one stacks up, numbers wise for this one too.

Cambridge next week after.

[Brodie]

The fields for Cambridge on Tuesday are not flash and is not going to ptofitable as betting revenue is going to be very low!

You can not run a profitable meeting with 7 races and very small fields!

Entain/ TAB are delusional if they think that it is a great idea to run these meetings on a Tuesday night as well.

the Ozzie will probably clean up and take the NZ dollars back to Ozzie, which is hardly helping the NZ based owners and trainers?

[Gammalite]

11 hours ago, Brodie said:

helping the NZ based owners and trainers?

 

11 hours ago, Brodie said:

You can not run a profitable meeting with 7 races and very small fields

The only way you can help owners and Trainers is to actually Have Regular meetings Brodster.

The smaller the field the better. Means the owners chances of a 'return a greatly enhanced.  (QLD country just runs 9 horse fields now for the whole racecard instead of 10 that it was 2 years ago) will be even better when it drops to 8 to give stables even more returns.

Times are tough. Not a lot of folk racing horses at the present time. Those that are paying the bills Do Need a return on their investments. (Unless just going around for the love of it like the old days and in some remote SI areas.)

QLD put a race meeting on last Sunday of 10 races of 8 horses for $40,000 total stakes for the entire meeting (4k per Race) That's All you need to do mateys . To Keep the owners and Trainers (and stable hands and drivers too) ALL getting some reward and a few bucks in the sky rocket (pocket) 

GOOD On Cambridge Giving something to the Participants each week ! is very Important. A great step forward is Regular Racing TO KEEP THE GAME ALIVE. keep the participants interested. 👍 

Edited August 9 by Gammalite

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

QLD put a race meeting on last Sunday of 10 races of 8 horses for $40,000 total stakes for the entire meeting (4k per Race) That's All you need to do mateys .

A win in a $4k race wouldn't pay a months training bills even before deductions.

[Nowornever]

13 hours ago, Brodie said:

The fields for Cambridge on Tuesday are not flash and is not going to ptofitable as betting revenue is going to be very low!

You can not run a profitable meeting with 7 races and very small fields!

Entain/ TAB are delusional if they think that it is a great idea to run these meetings on a Tuesday night as well.

the Ozzie will probably clean up and take the NZ dollars back to Ozzie, which is hardly helping the NZ based owners and trainers?

Seven races no field size bigger than 8 runners and four of them only have six runners. FFS this is a sick joke isn't it!
 

Yet they will not fix the lower class racing and just keep pouring money into the bigger stakes racing hoping it will fix itself.  Why would you think about owning a horse or start training in the hope you might be the 0.005% of the people that actually win one of those races while spending a fortune to do it. At the moment it is becoming even more of an elitists sport run by elitist people.

[Gammalite]

35 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

A win in a $4k race wouldn't pay a months training bills even before deductions.

$2,369 for the winner of each race Chief. (10 winners got that each with horses barely able to break 2min mile that would get zero at Albion, Auckland, Addington) excellent stuff 

You have to generally win 4 races per year to just break even with a usual country horse anyway. 

The Cambridge Races give the SLOW-Pokes a chance to race. even though as you say they will run at a career loss , but you begrudge them Winning Anything ?? why ??

and all you guys is grizzle grizzle grizzle as usual. they AL need somewhere to race? I'd be happy if they ran them Non-tote (we did once) to stop you guys grizzling. But They NEED To Race 

'NoworNever' is talking ELITIST just above , and he is right in the sense that Albion, Auckland , Addington generally have the rich owners these days. Mick Boots is buying up all your horses now Swayzee won there, and Dean Shannon owns big swags he bought at the sales too (inc Merlin the best in country)

Therefore CAMBRIDGE TUESDAYS and meetings like that (Manawatu) Are VITAL for the battling poorer owners/ or trainers, and even the Learner drivers TO get A Fricken Go  !!😁

  

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

$2,369 for the winner of each race Chief. (10 winners got that each with horses barely able to break 2min mile that would get zero at Albion, Auckland, Addington) excellent stuff 

You have to generally win 4 races per year to just break even with a usual country horse anyway. 

Which proves my point.

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

The Cambridge Races give the SLOW-Pokes a chance to race. even though as you say they will run at a career loss , but you begrudge them Winning Anything ?? why ??

I'm not begrudging them a win at all.  However if you adjust the handicaps to retain horses longer and to make races more competitive i.e. an attractive betting proposition then REVENUE increases.

You also miss the point that costs not much less to train a "slow poke" as it does a Champion.  You may spend more on vet fees for the latter.

A competitive "slow poke" race will return more net revenue than Group races - why should the "slow pokes" and their owners subsidise the elite?

[Chief Stipe]

1 hour ago, Gammalite said:

Therefore CAMBRIDGE TUESDAYS and meetings like that (Manawatu) Are VITAL for the battling poorer owners/ or trainers, and even the Learner drivers TO get A Fricken Go  !!😁

Don't disagree but stakes of $4k ain't going to cut the mustard for long.

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Don't disagree but stakes of $4k ain't going to cut the mustard for long.

like any sport , ya just want to be involved if you love/enjoy it.

No the money isn't much , but we're not all Purdons, Butts, Dunns or Telfers so they need somewhere to go to win. (or race competitively) I was annoyed Barry put his horse in the junior drivers race at Cambridge this week actually,  as just mugs the Battlers. 

I know several trainers here who don't bother competing AT ALL at Albion Park anymore at all,  which races 3 times per week. Have to leave that for the McMullens and Dixon's with all their millionaire owners mainly. They just send a few around at Redcliffe each Wednesday and Thursday to still have fun, win one race to pay their way each 2nd week of so with one of the team , and make a living that way.

Cambridge could be the 'ideal' Redcliffe equal if they race each week. which seems to be what they are doing to KEEP PEOPLE in the Great Sport . and winning enough to get by.

The Mustard is cut already Chief . (only about 15% of horses that race return a profit for their owners by the time they finish racing when you add up all the costs. ) not many cut the mustard in the end 💰.

 

Edited August 10 by Gammalite

[Gammalite]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

ace will return more net revenue than Group races - why should the "slow pokes" and their owners subsidise the elite?

no they shouldn't. that's why Slot races are coming into play . Owners can race for Monster Dollars once again , and pay for the privalidge. The Grins Race has been FANTASTIC, and now they started a trot . Just Believe a Bit good in it , but can't have all the luck. still good prize for 2nd for your star horses. 

AND the owners 'subsidise ' it themselves. Have to pay a large entry fee. The way of the future. (think your gallops will do it soon too) excellent racing. Just put up, shut up and collect 😅👍💰.

[Chief Stipe]

21 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

like any sport , ya just want to be involved if you love/enjoy it

Give me a break @Gammalite !!!!

Racing isn't two up or tiddly winks!  If owners don't get a fair return for their investment (even if it is negative) then who provides the product?  

 

[Chief Stipe]

23 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

I know several trainers here who don't bother competing AT ALL at Albion Park anymore at all,  which races 3 times per week.

They're not good enough?  That's a great advertisement for new owners.

[Westview]

3 hours ago, Gammalite said:

no they shouldn't. that's why Slot races are coming into play . Owners can race for Monster Dollars once again , and pay for the privalidge. The Grins Race has been FANTASTIC, and now they started a trot . Just Believe a Bit good in it , but can't have all the luck. still good prize for 2nd for your star horses. 

AND the owners 'subsidise ' it themselves. Have to pay a large entry fee. The way of the future. (think your gallops will do it soon too) excellent racing. Just put up, shut up and collect 😅👍💰.

Unfortunately we were sold slot races as being self funding which was never the case , now we have two more on showday which are subsidised even more.

 

 

[Doomed]

4 hours ago, Gammalite said:

 

AND the owners 'subsidise ' it themselves. Have to pay a large entry fee. The way of the future. (think your gallops will do it soon too) excellent racing. Just put up, shut up and collect 😅👍💰.

Owners don't have to pay a large entry fee at all. The slot holders pay the money and then try to hook up with a decent horse. And as others have mentioned the industry as a whole contributes quite a bit as well, which isn't the way it was supposed to work.

[Gammalite]

47 minutes ago, Doomed said:

Owners don't have to pay a large entry fee at all. The slot holders pay the money and then try to hook up with a decent horse. And as others have mentioned the industry as a whole contributes quite a bit as well, which isn't the way it was supposed to work.

Fair comment , but mostly it's the Millionaire owners/ consortiums / bloodstock agents that buy  a slot in the 1st place . To race their pride and joy in.

It's not exactly Joe Blow owner from Nelson or anything lol

The $2,000,000 Eureka is on very soon. 10 slots . Who's got em?  They all paid $300,000 each for a 3 years period of starters. so I call that a large entry fee. even if you don't Doomed.  can't be too different in the Race by Grins ???

here's the 10 Eureka boys for ya . Space. Space. Space. Space>>

Millionaire Kevin Seymour (QLD) bought a slot last year (for Leap To Fame but he only ran 2nd.) but Kevin has lots of horses

Western Jewel farms (mcCarthy stud farm) have a slot ) plenty of horses to pick from.

Millionaire Danny zavitsanos. Danny races plenty of horses. Victoria mainly.

Tas harness racing . they own a slot to send best Tassie horse each year. 

John Singleton . multi millionaire , races gallopers mainly . everyone knows singo though.

Aaron Bain and Summit Bloodstock. these guys have Bucket loads of horses for all the penny share holders around the country. They have contributed greatly to the downfall of NZ harness by buying anything that moves sometimes. even race horses in Tamworth trying to dominate the scene. 

Grimson stables  current NZ Cup holders with Swayzee. also had a slot in WA $1,200,000 slot race that they won with  cheap NZ buy BETTERZIPPIT last year. picked up 1/2 million in one go !! amazing. Slot probably backed by Mick Boots who is buying horses from you guys every month since Swayzee won. Are you running short of Numbers yet ??

Cordina Racing Italian family millionaire mob , been racing many horses for years.

Soho Standardbreds  racing horses for years . very wealthy bloodstock mob

 Queensland Racing . Who surprisingly have popped Grant Dixon runner in their slot coming up next month , instead of Seymour having him this year lol  hahaha

there you go !! all Multi millionaire owners . (Grimson still young so might not be at the million yet , but will be closing in on it shortly so don't panic )   They all paid up and can now race for the Big bucks . Best of Luck to them all !!!

[Gammalite]

6 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Give me a break @Gammalite !!!!

Racing isn't two up or tiddly winks!  If owners don't get a fair return for their investment (even if it is negative) then who provides the product?  

I've met a lot of owners, trained and driven horses for them. Raced against many opponents with lots of similar owners.

I can't think of any that returned a profit Chief. We did the best we could to break even. I only charged $150 per week training fee in the 90's. The millionaire owners like Seymour here with leap To Fame have actually spent the most. bucket loads of horses (before Leap To Fame) take bucketloads of attention , staff, breeding, vets,  fees etc. he'd be down millions on harness

I liked my owners to have 2 horses, that way they had one racing every week still (if one was spelling, injury etc) and they keep the interest that way. and aren't spending too much. just a good business model that worked. and then Try and win a race at least every 3 months just to break even with each horse. (that's  hard enough to do) .

If you do your math you could say law of averages says that with 10 horses starting in a race,  and 10 races starts for your horse in 3 month period,  you would on average run placings of one 1st, a 2nd , a 3rd down to a 10th and last placing. is amazing how close this actually pans for your regular horse. the ratings system pits them against horses of similar ability week to week.  impossible to bet on. 

That's the return your average horse in QLD can expect through the year. thankfully they are usually 9 horse fields nowadays . so the win might come one race sooner. you need 4 wins per year just to break even . 

Much harder in NZ to get a profit with your horse. Not enough race starts per year. field size too big SI sometimes.  a whole heap of your runners don't win 4 per year .Expensive training fees,  and only a certain percentage actually get to the races to have a start.

That's why 

I like the Cambridge idea of running each Tuesday for the slow poke horses. Give the owners a chance to get something back on their investments as you indicated ?. 

[Brodie]

11 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Fair comment , but mostly it's the Millionaire owners/ consortiums / bloodstock agents that buy  a slot in the 1st place . To race their pride and joy in.

It's not exactly Joe Blow owner from Nelson or anything lol

The $2,000,000 Eureka is on very soon. 10 slots . Who's got em?  They all paid $300,000 each for a 3 years period of starters. so I call that a large entry fee. even if you don't Doomed.  can't be too different in the Race by Grins ???

here's the 10 Eureka boys for ya . Space. Space. Space. Space>>

Millionaire Kevin Seymour (QLD) bought a slot last year (for Leap To Fame but he only ran 2nd.) but Kevin has lots of horses

Western Jewel farms (mcCarthy stud farm) have a slot ) plenty of horses to pick from.

Millionaire Danny zavitsanos. Danny races plenty of horses. Victoria mainly.

Tas harness racing . they own a slot to send best Tassie horse each year. 

John Singleton . multi millionaire , races gallopers mainly . everyone knows singo though.

Aaron Bain and Summit Bloodstock. these guys have Bucket loads of horses for all the penny share holders around the country. They have contributed greatly to the downfall of NZ harness by buying anything that moves sometimes. even race horses in Tamworth trying to dominate the scene. 

Grimson stables  current NZ Cup holders with Swayzee. also had a slot in WA $1,200,000 slot race that they won with  cheap NZ buy BETTERZIPPIT last year. picked up 1/2 million in one go !! amazing. Slot probably backed by Mick Boots who is buying horses from you guys every month since Swayzee won. Are you running short of Numbers yet ??

Cordina Racing Italian family millionaire mob , been racing many horses for years.

Soho Standardbreds  racing horses for years . very wealthy bloodstock mob

 Queensland Racing . Who surprisingly have popped Grant Dixon runner in their slot coming up next month , instead of Seymour having him this year lol  hahaha

there you go !! all Multi millionaire owners . (Grimson still young so might not be at the million yet , but will be closing in on it shortly so don't panic )   They all paid up and can now race for the Big bucks . Best of Luck to them all !!!

So they are all financially wealthy, will be the same in NZ slot races!

So why on earth is HRNZ putting heaps in when it is not required, as they would run the race anyway as it wont affect the slot holders wealth, but cost the industry?

[Gammalite]

50 minutes ago, Brodie said:

So they are all financially wealthy, will be the same in NZ slot races!

So why on earth is HRNZ putting heaps in when it is not required, as they would run the race anyway as it wont affect the slot holders wealth, but cost the industry?

Think you should be right there , and they should put in bugger all. let the big boys pay themselves 

But if you are an organisation (Like HRNZ or racing NZ )  that wants to have the Best horses in the Best (highest stakes races possible as a showcase of the sport ) then surely you Have to Contribute something Towards this ?. Doesn't hurt to be involved.

can't just sit back and watch being ignorant to these great innovations.

Harness racing was dying without them. The resurrection is under way .

Of course HRNZ contributing to, and supplying meetings for the low class horses is VITAL too, and therefore putting a few bucks up for the few at Cambridge each week is good stuff. This keeps a few more 'players/participants' in the sport.  No Participants = No Sport. 

yes I know the 'Betting' is practically zero , but it's the same here. We have little trot meetings in OZ somewhere Everyday. It's a fun sport for the participants, and 

[Brodie]

2 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Think you should be right there , and they should put in bugger all. let the big boys pay themselves 

But if you are an organisation (Like HRNZ or racing NZ )  that wants to have the Best horses in the Best (highest stakes races possible as a showcase of the sport ) then surely you Have to Contribute something Towards this ?. Doesn't hurt to be involved.

can't just sit back and watch being ignorant to these great innovations.

Harness racing was dying without them. The resurrection is under way .

Of course HRNZ contributing to, and supplying meetings for the low class horses is VITAL too, and therefore putting a few bucks up for the few at Cambridge each week is good stuff. This keeps a few more 'players/participants' in the sport.  No Participants = No Sport. 

yes I know the 'Betting' is practically zero , but it's the same here. We have little trot meetings in OZ somewhere Everyday. It's a fun sport for the participants, and 

Of course it is good that there is racing at Cambridge giving horses a chance to race, however there are big issues at play.

Putting on low class racing st Cambridge on a Tuesday nite is just crucifying them, as turnover will be shite as fields will be pathetically small.

Why didnt they at least put them on a Thursday?

going to be very interesting to see what the Friday night betting figures are when Auckland is competing with Addington?

I do not believe that Entain is going to continue to prop up racing in NZ, they only wanted control of the Sports betting and the smount of money they have put into racing is chicken feed for them!

[Chief Stipe]

3 hours ago, Gammalite said:

But if you are an organisation (Like HRNZ or racing NZ )  that wants to have the Best horses in the Best (highest stakes races possible as a showcase of the sport ) then surely you Have to Contribute something Towards this ?. Doesn't hurt to be involved.

can't just sit back and watch being ignorant to these great innovations.

They are hurting the industry. Not only do these restricted sweepstake races hurt the breed by restricting access on merit they are being subsidised heavily by the Administrators.  Where does that money come from?  The slow pokes or at the moment the ENTAIN shareholder investors.  There is a substantial risk to the industry of that sugar hit.

3 hours ago, Gammalite said:

Harness racing was dying without them. The resurrection is under way .

A false promise @Gammalite as the key fundamentals are not being addressed to make the industry sustainable.  Financially the industry isn't paying its way without ENTAIN subsidisation, lottery sweepstake races, huge cross subsidisation and tax payer handouts.

[Chief Stipe]

16 hours ago, Gammalite said:

I've met a lot of owners, trained and driven horses for them. Raced against many opponents with lots of similar owners.

I can't think of any that returned a profit Chief. We did the best we could to break even. I only charged $150 per week training fee in the 90's.

So how did you stay solvent?  Or make a profit?  

Did you keep pitching up to owners each week with a promise of great things to come?

How many wins per year does a horse need to break even?

I accept that very few horses make a profit.  However when I had the experience of a horse winning 5 races and returning a stake in each of 17 races for two seasons I started to question what was the point.

Especially when I still needed to put money in I.e. it ran at a loss.

If the industry heads to the scenario where it seems to be heading now where 10 top stables and owners win 90% of the stakes then the very thing that makes the industry great in your view will be gone.

What is the point of a $250k race that doesn't pay its way in revenue earned when the same horses would turn up for $150k?  

Deliberate distorting of the market can only lead to one thing - market failure.

 

[Slippery Slope]

"Deliberate distorting of the market can only lead to one thing- market failure". Just a reminder on the scale of market distortion in favour of Alexandra Park and to disavantage Cambridge that already existed before we saw the triple combo of FNL kick off, two meetings a week and Cambridge shunted to Tuesdays start in earnest this month.

For the 11 months 3 Aug '23 to 5 July '24, the numbers of meetings and races between the two venues were similar. But the relative cost to the industry and return from betting definitely was not. Let's exclude the 3 big autumn race nights with the largest HRNZ subsidies/ stakes at Cambridge and Alexandra Park (12 Apr Cambridge Slots, 10 and 17 May Alexandra Pk Auckld & Rowe Cup and leadups) and thus focus on the bulk of races/ meetings/ betting revenue and subsidies being related mainly to "every day" racing. Excluding these 3 meetings in the 11 months here's the comparison:

Cambridge,    26 meetings , 7 on Fridays. 224 races. Gross betting revenue, $2.310m $10,312 per race.   HRNZ subsidies $3.454m, $15,420 per race. Shortfall $1.144m, $5,108 per race.

Alexandra Pk, 27 meetings, 16 on Fridays, 244 races. Gross betting revenue, $3.057m $12,530 per race. HRNZ subsidies $5.979m, $24,505 per race. Shortfall $2.922m, $11,975 per race.

Most in this forum are fully aware that it's really hard understanding the HRNZ justification for shifting so many $ millions of subsidy to the north vs the south year on year. And its even harder to understand on the comparison above, why HRNZ then further favour Alexandra Park so exclusively versus Cambridge, a situation that will only worsen under the new Tuesday/Friday structure. The ATC was already being favoured with both most of the Fridays and most of the group races and their associated subsidies, and they weren't performing better relative to Cambridge.

Why does FNL always have to be Alexandra Park should remain a very live question for HRNZ. This is especially the case as it's likely the horse population shortage with the resulting lousy betting choices presented for both Alexandra Park and Cambridge will simply cause the  $ they have to spend to subsidise Northern harness racing to grow still further. There's no such thing as a free lunch!

  

[Gammalite]

seriously you guys don't deserve harness racing as can't see the big picture.

You have to support the participants otherwise the Harness racing will CEASE TO EXIST.

Auckland is a Metro track with Big Metro Races . You need to supply good prizemoney to keep the participants buying horses at your sales and Racing for it !!!

Aussie Dean Shannon (and the wonderful Herlihy stables) can at least see that and buys up at your sales and race as many as they can through the year, 

the prizemoney allocated according to ''the betting' is your answer ? that's just folly.  

sure there's more harness fans (like Brodster , slippery dip and others)  in the South Island and the betting is bigger there , so what ?  that doesn't mean North Island should go to the pack ?? you guys should fight harder to bet there (I do) better racing anyway lol 😁😂

e.g Tassie harness was rubbish (but cleaned up a bit recently expelling Australia's 'leading ' trainer Ben Yole) , and now the racing is better, but you don't bet on it much still. But they're still allocated prizemoney for their races ?? It's the job of Racing TAS. 

HRNZ allocate the money as they see fit. you PICK on em' All you like .they're trying to provide racing for the participants. that's the VITAL thing. 

EASY SOLUTION = what they're trying to do IMO. Metro class (Auckland horses ) race for 12k-17k plus races each week. THEN put the Country class (slower) horses at Cambridge for 7k races each and Every week. Gives ALL horse and owners a chance to get something.  Easy as pie. 

Well done HRNZ . sterling job you are doing 🏆.( keeping the game alive! ) with honourable mentions to Dean Shannon and the Herlihy family too. 

 

 

 

[Chief Stipe]

27 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

seriously you guys don't deserve harness racing as can't see the big picture.

Are you sure it isn't you that can't see the big picture?

27 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

You have to support the participants otherwise the Harness racing will CEASE TO EXIST.

I don't disagree however I can't see how the current HRNZ policies are doing anything to support participants at ALL levels.  Subsidised sweepstake races don't cut the mustard!