Looking forward to reading the Stewards report

[Walt]

for Race 4 @ Winton today. 

Major Medley paying $1.70 driven by Brent Barclay "appeared" to be doing handstands in the one-one sit. It almost looked a times and margins job for the entire race. Blind Freddy would know, hear and even see horses making their runs inside the last 600. Brent didn't move. Nek minute he's gone from being a good thing to virtually no hope. Caller described Major Medley as being "unlucky" but was he? Perhaps there was an issue with the horse I couldn't see? 

Race was won by Big Boys Toys trained and driven by Kirstin Green paying $34 fixed odds. 

 

 

[Walt]

https://harness.hrnz.co.nz/gws/ws/r/infohorsews/wsd06x?Arg=hrnzg-Ptype&Arg=RaceVideo&Arg=hrnzg-RacehdrID&Arg=A1B942E4-18B9-448A-B17F-DAD764DE520A&Arg=hrnzg-rSite&Arg=TRUE

[Shad]

Unfortunately the stipes report often disappoint, watched the replay, didn't make his own luck for sure, no excuses,the winner sat parked the trip, and was a very good performance.

[Walt]

57 minutes ago, Shad said:

Unfortunately the stipes report often disappoint, watched the replay, didn't make his own luck for sure, no excuses,the winner sat parked the trip, and was a very good performance.

Can't fault the winner Shad. Big run.

You're right about the Stewards. Questions were not even asked. Remarkable. The horse was paying $1.70 and Brent Barclay is a very experienced driver and must surely have known what would unfold if he didn't move when afforded every opportunity. 

I believe Major Medley was going well enough to move at the appropriate time and win. My observations throughout the race and the way he finished left me with little doubt. 

Impossible not to feel disillusioned when what unfolded with a hot fav is not even questioned by Stewards. 

Race 4   MM BRANDS MOBILE PACE	Show Video
MCDOLMIO - driver M Williamson elected to start from the Unruly position due to the gelding displaying unfavourable manners in its preliminary. Slow to leave the pre-race circle however was in the Unruly position at the start. Weakened final bend. Placed on the Unruly for future mobile starts.
MAJOR MEDLEY - held up for clear racing room until the middle stages of the run home.
RYLAN CHARLIE - paced roughly for a few strides near the 120m and shifted out having to be straightened by driver S O'Reilly.
BUCKIE DUNDEE - over-raced in the early stages when being restrained to take cover. Raced wide from the 700m. Weakened final bend.
MATAI LIZZIE - over-raced in the early stages when being restrained to take cover. Weakened final bend.
BIG BOYZ TOY - the blinds were removed prior to the start due to the gelding warming up unfavourably.

 

[Debs]

Couldn't agree more.  I could have driven this to win!

[Shad]

7 hours ago, Walt said:

Can't fault the winner Shad. Big run.

You're right about the Stewards. Questions were not even asked. Remarkable. The horse was paying $1.70 and Brent Barclay is a very experienced driver and must surely have known what would unfold if he didn't move when afforded every opportunity. 

I believe Major Medley was going well enough to move at the appropriate time and win. My observations throughout the race and the way he finished left me with little doubt. 

Impossible not to feel disillusioned when what unfolded with a hot fav is not even questioned by Stewards. 

Race 4   MM BRANDS MOBILE PACE	Show Video
MCDOLMIO - driver M Williamson elected to start from the Unruly position due to the gelding displaying unfavourable manners in its preliminary. Slow to leave the pre-race circle however was in the Unruly position at the start. Weakened final bend. Placed on the Unruly for future mobile starts.
MAJOR MEDLEY - held up for clear racing room until the middle stages of the run home.
RYLAN CHARLIE - paced roughly for a few strides near the 120m and shifted out having to be straightened by driver S O'Reilly.
BUCKIE DUNDEE - over-raced in the early stages when being restrained to take cover. Raced wide from the 700m. Weakened final bend.
MATAI LIZZIE - over-raced in the early stages when being restrained to take cover. Weakened final bend.
BIG BOYZ TOY - the blinds were removed prior to the start due to the gelding warming up unfavourably.

 

Yeah he could of gone earlier and taken what happened out of play, after not spending a penny, no help to the punter now of course, having witnessed so many races or controversial ones, have like yourself looked for to answers in stipes report, but for most incidents have been left very disappointed at the lack of hard questions asked, hows that new biscuit tin going, looked way to nice to bury in the back garden.

[Walt]

14 hours ago, Debs said:

Couldn't agree more.  I could have driven this to win!

Brent started out as a Junior in 1990 some 34 years ago. He's had over 9000 drives and won 888 races. He knows exactly when to move in a race and just as importantly, when not to move. 

I don't believe he was caught napping yesterday with Major Medley. Had that been a junior driver you'd be pulling him / her to one side and painting some pictures for them. When a driver is nailed down like the horse he / she is acutely aware where others are and when they will likely make their moves. He'll also hear them like alarm bells going off. 

I'm incredulous at what unfolded there. It destroys important wagering confidence and accountability when questionable actions unfold. Stewards should return their pay cheque for not even bothering to ask the question of Brent Barclay. Yes, he was blocked for room in the home straight. Blind Freddy could see that ffs. It's what unfolded prior to the home straight and more importantly in this case, what didn't happen. 

There may have been an innocent explanation for why Brent didn't move and cost the horse and an army of punters the win. We'll never know now because the Stewards didn't bother asking the question. I'm aware he was going to win easily as fav first up only to have an issue late in the race. One would assume they wouldn't start the horse one week later unless they had addressed that issue. The horse was obviously balanced up in the home straight at Winton and would have won with a clear run. Why drive for luck when you're going well enough to make your own luck?

Confidence comes from transparency. 

No transparency = No confidence = No wagering.  

Declaring my hand here. I had nothing on Major Medley. Despite there being several Group 1's recently my last punt was on Mo'unga in the Westport Cup. 

I do however retain a strong interest in almost all harness meetings. I've recommended to contacts / friends in both Canterbury and Auckland horses I see going around at trials and race meetings that I recommend they try and secure. Major Medley is a nice horse who will win his share for sure. I wish the connections well. 

[Gammalite]

7 hours ago, Walt said:

There may have been an innocent explanation for why Brent didn't move and cost the horse and an army of punters the win. We'll never know now because the Stewards didn't bother asking the question. I'm aware he was going to win easily as fav first up only to have an issue late in the race. One would assume they wouldn't start the horse one week later unless they had addressed that issue. The horse was obviously balanced up in the home straight at Winton and would have won with a clear run. Why drive for luck when you're going well enough to make your own luck?

You guys are barking up the wrong tree'. Every nearly every race a horse in the field is held up by other runners at some stage. Harness or gallops. they race in close proximity guys. 

When they fan out you hope for a run at them if you're going well. 

This horse is a 2 start maiden in this article ??? you seriously think the stewards should be worried about the driver getting blocked in and make a hoo-ha about it . can't see the sense in that. I used to get hemmed in behind the leader on occasion . when we had running rails. You can't go grizzling about when you think drivers should pull out and go round a runner.  Well I spose we can grizzle on a forum , but the stewards aren't going to tell drivers when to go , and how to drive. 

If the bloke decided to stay in . his decision. you can't punish him for it. Got beat a neck and 1/2 neck .went pretty close so what's the problem.  yeah maybe could of won . maybe not. (if driven differently ) They can't all win in the same race. 

I would say no-one lost confidence on that runner. wrong tree' barking 😎

Where they Lose Confidence (the Punters that is ) is your stupid galloping runners from stupid dated standing starts. Now that puts a LOT of Punters off.  and is something the stewards DO Need to deal with as well. Who wants to see their investment galloping out the back? . ALL to Common in Nz harness = not many investing on those races from the real loss of confidence in harness racing that exists.   

[the galah]

punters just expect better tactical decisions i suppose gammalite.

The key is this horse was a $1.70 hot favorite. Theres a justified expectation for the driver of a red hot favorite not to get boxed in with 600m to go.

really it comes down to, if you want to retain punter confidence then stipes should at least ask the obvious questions.

Its also pretty pbvious,that if stipes don't question drives like barclays then the drivers concerned will think its ok to drive like that ,which will lead to punters losing confidence in the product.

Funny thing was i was talking to someone today and the second thing they said to me was whats wrong with the southland stipes. I asked why and they said well brent barclay clearly made no apparent attempt to get a clear run with the $1.70 favorite being talked about.

Personally i just think sometimes drivers made poor tactical decisions and theres no doubt b barclay did that. Any normal driver would not have got boxed in with 600m to go on a $1.70 favorite.

I also thought in race 8 they may have mentioned the outward movement of the b gray trained winner onto its stablemate,hayley jaccka,driven by barclay. I only watched the head on once but i thought the winner clearly moved out enough to impede hayley jaccka .I'm not saying the winner was ever going to be relegated but the stipes normally mention things like that. Do they not realise people were shown the head on on trackside.

[Nowornever]

GOOD TIME BETTY - when questioned regarding the improved performance driver J Curtin advised the mare had benefited from a good barrier draw and an economical run.

Jesus the horse draws 8 and 5 the last two starts and has hard runs from those draws after getting back. Today it draws two and trails all the way and the stipes couldn't work out for themselves why it went much better. FFS what is going on. 

[Gammalite]

9 minutes ago, the galah said:

punters just expect better tactical decisions i suppose gammalite.

Punters expect their runner to win all the time , but we know that is not possible.😅

You can have all the tactics you like but there is always others trying to beat you. 

I guess if a horse pulled in behind others in the last half mile , and then got held up I would raise an eyebrow , but I've seen hundreds of races with runners trying to work into the clear in the last quarter for their final bid at glory and come up short. A 2 start maiden wouldn't register on my radar lol. better to give them cover as long as possible. (when you're NOT Allstars)

I once drove a horse for 4 starts that was incredibly fast from the mobile. His arse would drop a foot as the mobile went to pull away at dispatch point,  as he thrusted that hard with his hindquarter, he tried to keep up with the bloody thing. He was quite incredible. lead easy every time. first 2 times I decided to take a trail and got held up 3rd both times. smartalec trainer said keep lead and you'll win ? 😉 . I said this horse uses his gas at the start and is weak as piss at the end. but nevertheless led and got ran over 2nd and 4th for next 2 runs by John Mcmullen. Trainer still not impressed. I said horse will not lead and win. I got dragged and never drove that one again 😂. Not a good horse , but man what a thrill coming out of the gate. Holy hell it was like a V8 against mini's. 4 misses with trying different tactics. Doesn't always mean you win when leading (or 1-1 like this 2 start maiden)  , no matter what horse you have.  

 

[the galah]

9 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

GOOD TIME BETTY - when questioned regarding the improved performance driver J Curtin advised the mare had benefited from a good barrier draw and an economical run.

Jesus the horse draws 8 and 5 the last two starts and has hard runs from those draws after getting back. Today it draws two and trails all the way and the stipes couldn't work out for themselves why it went much better. FFS what is going on. 

I think thats a bit tough nowornever.

Either we want stipes doing their job to provide information to the public,or we don't.

Surely thats the whole point of this thread. 

If you want  to know which stipes are doing the best job to protect punter confidence,then you should just look at who the stipes are and whats in their reports.

Todays stipes would be the most switched on of any in nz.

[Walt]

53 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

You guys are barking up the wrong tree'. Every nearly every race a horse in the field is held up by other runners at some stage. Harness or gallops. they race in close proximity guys. 

When they fan out you hope for a run at them if you're going well. 

This horse is a 2 start maiden in this article ??? you seriously think the stewards should be worried about the driver getting blocked in and make a hoo-ha about it . can't see the sense in that. I used to get hemmed in behind the leader on occasion . when we had running rails. You can't go grizzling about when you think drivers should pull out and go round a runner.  Well I spose we can grizzle on a forum , but the stewards aren't going to tell drivers when to go , and how to drive. 

If the bloke decided to stay in . his decision. you can't punish him for it. Got beat a neck and 1/2 neck .went pretty close so what's the problem.  yeah maybe could of won . maybe not. (if driven differently ) They can't all win in the same race. 

I would say no-one lost confidence on that runner. wrong tree' barking 😎

Where they Lose Confidence (the Punters that is ) is your stupid galloping runners from stupid dated standing starts. Now that puts a LOT of Punters off.  and is something the stewards DO Need to deal with as well. Who wants to see their investment galloping out the back? . ALL to Common in Nz harness = not many investing on those races from the real loss of confidence in harness racing that exists.   

$1.70 fav is a hot fav regardless if it's in a Group 1 or a low grade meeting a step up from trials. The $ is worth the same as is the obligation to obtain the best possible placing. 

There is a possibility that this hot fav got blocked in by design. It wasn't a rookie mistake as Brent is no rookie. Major Medley did no work sitting quietly smoking his pipe. Barclay could have pulled the trigger at any time but remarkably refused to move until his winning chance has all but been extinguished. It was almost farcical to drive that way and then be desperately climbing over them in the straight. The two actions don't marry up. Sleeping and desperate. 

I'm genuinely shocked you'd ask "what's the problem?"

You're aware who trained and drove the horse Brent refused to go around that won at fixed odds of $34? You're aware of the connection between the two? To my eye, had Barclay moved to the outside of Big Boys Toys when he had every opportunity to do so, he wins the race on his ear. Simple as that.

That's the problem. 

$1.70 favs get rolled so routinely we don't give most a second thought. Same applies to horses being unlucky. The way this race unfolded and the result is worth a lot more than a second thought. You can't see that Gammalite. Fair enough but don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining. 

 

 

[Shad]

Interesting was just about to mention the dumb questions they do ask, or when a favourite runner gets a tough wide trip, then they question the driver, things just don't add up sometimes.

[Walt]

4 minutes ago, Gammalite said:

Punters expect their runner to win all the time , but we know that is not possible.😅

You can have all the tactics you like but there is always others trying to beat you. 

I guess if a horse pulled in behind others in the last half mile , and then got held up I would raise an eyebrow , but I've seen hundreds of races with runners trying to work into the clear in the last quarter for their final bid at glory and come up short. A 2 start maiden wouldn't register on my radar lol. better to give them cover as long as possible. (when you're NOT Allstars)

I once drove a horse for 4 starts that was incredibly fast from the mobile. His arse would drop a foot as the mobile went to pull away at dispatch point,  as he thrusted that hard with his hindquarter, he tried to keep up with the bloody thing. He was quite incredible. lead easy every time. first 2 times I decided to take a trail and got held up 3rd both times. smartalec trainer said keep lead and you'll win ? 😉 . I said this horse uses his gas at the start and is weak as piss at the end. but nevertheless led and got ran over 2nd and 4th for next 2 runs by John Mcmullen. Trainer still not impressed. I said horse will not lead and win. I got dragged and never drove that one again 😂. Not a good horse , but man what a thrill coming out of the gate. Holy hell it was like a V8 against mini's. 4 misses with trying different tactics. Doesn't always mean you win when leading (or 1-1 like this 2 start maiden)  , no matter what horse you have.  

 

I'm a punter and don't expect my horse to win all the time. I hope they do otherwise I wouldn't wager on them. I feel most punters are the same. Even on my best days on track, not all my wagers win. 

[Nowornever]

2 minutes ago, the galah said:

I think thats a bit tough nowornever.

Either we want stipes doing their job to provide information to the public,or we don't.

Surely thats the whole point of this thread. 

If you want  to know which stipes are doing the best job to protect punter confidence,then you should just look at who the stipes are and whats in their reports.

Todays stipes would be the most switched on of any in nz.

Then on that basis in the last race they never questioned Betterthandiva who was also 6th favourite and won from a similar postion after never placing from its last 10 starts

[Shad]

9 minutes ago, Walt said:

I'm a punter and don't expect my horse to win all the time. I hope they do otherwise I wouldn't wager on them. I feel most punters are the same. Even on my best days on track, not all my wagers win. 

On another note, I see your heartbreak hotel in the money today, and at juicy odds to, got to keep the faith brother,

[Gammalite]

24 minutes ago, Walt said:

$1.70 fav is a hot fav regardless if it's in a Group 1 or a low grade meeting a step up from trials. The $ is worth the same as is the obligation to obtain the best possible placing. 

you're fixated on the starting odds Walt. Stewards aren't . that's the fact of the matter. 

You expect the stewards to question a driver based on the support on the tote for the horse and it not being driven in the manner you thought it should.  ( like Mo'unga a good example) 

Why should they? they don't control the odds. I can't recall ever being questioned in hundreds of races , because of the starting odds ?? nor anyone I worked with being questioned ,based on the criteria you are supplying . Stewards query a horses action is what they do , a fav I drove once hopped and skipped from the outside gate. I made up some crap like the track surface was a bit looser out there and too much give( It was too , I could here all the grit hitting the outside fence like you were throwing it at it from a shovel lol) but they don't care . Out of the draw for 2 starts you go . No matter what the odds on horse. Only time I remember being questioned actually

Stewards don't tell drivers how to drive. They don't care about the odds of a horse. It's not their job. They police the racing to be a 'fair' and 'safe' contest . If a horse makes an error they address it. If a horse gets held up by a bad driving tactic , they have no reason to jump up and down?.  that's just you mate . and a few hundred people at Randwick or Ellerslie or any race meeting every week , where their horse gets held up till late. Happens ALL the Time mate. 

Tough titties for the punter. PLENTY of horses get held up in the run. most races that happens. and plenty of Punters and non drivers think they can drive or ride better than someone out there in a race that they are watching. that happens most races as well lol.😂 

[Brodie]

54 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

GOOD TIME BETTY - when questioned regarding the improved performance driver J Curtin advised the mare had benefited from a good barrier draw and an economical run.

Jesus the horse draws 8 and 5 the last two starts and has hard runs from those draws after getting back. Today it draws two and trails all the way and the stipes couldn't work out for themselves why it went much better. FFS what is going on. 

Correct, it had been going not too bad,looked a cert to run a place today, in that field!

If you watched the last time it ran over the distance at Ashburton in November it was always going to be in the money.

It is more of a sprinter than stayer.

Peter Yeatman must be a fair age now?

Edited May 12 by Brodie

[Nowornever]

10 minutes ago, Brodie said:

Correct, it had been going not too bad,looked a cert to run a place today, in that field!

If you watched the last time it ran over the distance at Ashburton in November it was always going to be in the money.

It is more of a sprinter than stayer.

Peter Yeatman must be a fair age now?

Yes I had to sneak to several TAB's to slyly get enough on with them noticing. Surprised I didn't see you doing the same. 😂

[Brodie]

27 minutes ago, Nowornever said:

Yes I had to sneak to several TAB's to slyly get enough on with them noticing. Surprised I didn't see you doing the same. 😂

No comment!

For some reason $3.40 on the tote?

Edited May 12 by Brodie

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Nowornever said:

Then on that basis in the last race they never questioned Betterthandiva who was also 6th favourite and won from a similar postion after never placing from its last 10 starts

If your going to say that,then i would say you haven't given me a good example.

good time betty last 2 starts its finished 9th,beaten 37.5 metres and 11th beaten 43.2 metres. Betterthandiva had finished 6th,beaten 5.9. metres and 4th beaten 5.1 metres.I've stated the distance beaten in metres as i'm using the aussie tabcorp website as the hrnz website is not responding,as often happens.

The point is,well done if you backed good time betty,but the more information the punter has the better. Better to question more than do what they do in southland and leave many punters feeling pissed off because they can't even question the obvious.

Edited May 12 by the galah

[the galah]

3 hours ago, Gammalite said:

you're fixated on the starting odds Walt. Stewards aren't . that's the fact of the matter. 

You expect the stewards to question a driver based on the support on the tote for the horse and it not being driven in the manner you thought it should.  ( like Mo'unga a good example) 

Why should they? they don't control the odds. I can't recall ever being questioned in hundreds of races , because of the starting odds ?? nor anyone I worked with being questioned ,based on the criteria you are supplying . Stewards query a horses action is what they do , a fav I drove once hopped and skipped from the outside gate. I made up some crap like the track surface was a bit looser out there and too much give( It was too , I could here all the grit hitting the outside fence like you were throwing it at it from a shovel lol) but they don't care . Out of the draw for 2 starts you go . No matter what the odds on horse. Only time I remember being questioned actually

Stewards don't tell drivers how to drive. They don't care about the odds of a horse. It's not their job. They police the racing to be a 'fair' and 'safe' contest . If a horse makes an error they address it. If a horse gets held up by a bad driving tactic , they have no reason to jump up and down?.  that's just you mate . and a few hundred people at Randwick or Ellerslie or any race meeting every week , where their horse gets held up till late. Happens ALL the Time mate. 

Tough titties for the punter. PLENTY of horses get held up in the run. most races that happens. and plenty of Punters and non drivers think they can drive or ride better than someone out there in a race that they are watching. that happens most races as well lol.😂 

I thought it went without saying a horses odds are a reflection of how the public see the chances of a horse.

So i think your quite wrong if your suggesting the stipes should not consider the tote prices relevant.Like walt said,you have to respect punters intelligence and not put them all in the same basket as being unable to differentiate between good/bad or the odd questionable drive.

Then you say stewards don't tell drivers how to drive. 

well that is true but their job is to oversee an industry that expects a level of tactical competence from the drivers and very importantly,the perception that everyone is trying.

Harness racing just reflects society,not everyone is honest 100% of the time or plays by the rules every time.Its the same in any sport especially with gambling or money involved,which you must know anyway.

Your background does give you an insight,which most don't have, into the many reasons why things can happen in a race and you have given a couple of good examples of what you mean.But while thats an asset and advantage in understanding the subject,you don't have to have driven in a race to have a thorough knowledge of it.

I can understand the fine line a steward may tread in an area like southland where theres a smaller circle of participants and the participants are all just trying to make a living.

But stewards jobs are to protect those very same industry participants by maintaining perceived integrity in the product,so punters invest and keep the money and fun flowing.

Edited May 12 by the galah

[Shad]

They do ask questions on a longshot when there's a form reversal, not sure what they expect to be told, and also have no qualms the odd time telling a driver what they should have done during the running, or in there opinion, made an error of judgement, so technically they do say how a horse should be driven.

[Walt]

10 hours ago, Shad said:

On another note, I see your heartbreak hotel in the money today, and at juicy odds to, got to keep the faith brother,

I watched him with interest Shad. Very pleased to see him get around in one piece. Didn't try and do too much. Didn't go around a horse. Ran home well on the inner for a solid confidence building third. A couple more of those will likely see Gav feeling like he do more in his races. You're right about patience especially with unruly trotters. I'd wager that third gave Gavin a lot of satisfaction and encouragement. 

The first two home are no slugs so the form in the race will stack up.